The duty of the common man

[Ozzie Osmond]

For most of the 20th century the duty of the common man was to labour down the pit, at the steelworks or at the shipyard producing as much goods as possible.

From 1980 his duty changed. No longer was he to work as a producer but instead his duty was to borrow and spend as much as possible to drive the consumer boom.

What's next? Return to production? Return to spending? Or something else?

[RobDickinson]

Manufacturing steadily fell for the whole of the 20th centuary. At the start the UK produced something like 85% of the worlds manufactured goods!

With globalisation ecconomies have to specialise. UK doesnt have cheap labour or materials so mass producing things is going to be more expensive than places like China.

Uks forte is in specialised manufacturing and services like IT, banking etc. If it cant get those right its time to close up shop.

[powerstroke]

Ozzie Osmond said:

For most of the 20th century the duty of the common man was to labour down the pit, at the steelworks or at the shipyard producing as much goods as possible.

From 1980 his duty changed. No longer was he to work as a producer but instead his duty was to borrow and spend as much as possible to drive the consumer boom.

no the only thing we seem to have been able to do is get the worst most lazy and feckless to breed like rabits live on benifits, and import hardworking eastern europeans to do the low skilled work....

[Larry Dickman]

I hope we do return to a producing nation, we've turned into a nation of phone answerers & unfortunately RobDickinson is right.

[Willie Dee]

Seizing the means of production

[Shay HTFC]

RobDickinson said:

Manufacturing steadily fell for the whole of the 20th centuary. At the start the UK produced something like 85% of the worlds manufactured goods!

With globalisation ecconomies have to specialise. UK doesnt have cheap labour or materials so mass producing things is going to be more expensive than places like China.

Uks forte is in specialised manufacturing and services like IT, banking etc. If it cant get those right its time to close up shop.

Correct, but unfortunately there is no divine rule of the universe that states we should have the right to high wages and expensive labour. If the rest of the world can do whatever we can do, but for cheaper, then the only way we can continue to compete is my working for less.

The ultimate end point of globalisation is the equal purchasing power of every single nation on the planet. Good for those at the bottom, not so good for those of us accustomed to a higher standard of life than 90% of the rest of the world.

[JagLover]

RobDickinson said:

Manufacturing steadily fell for the whole of the 20th centuary. At the start the UK produced something like 85% of the worlds manufactured goods!

The UK's share of world manufacturing was 18.5 % in 1900. At its peak (as a result of the Uk being the first nation to industrialise) we accounted for 23% of world manufacturing output (in 1880).

[Digga]

Willie Dee said:

Seizing the means of production

I've already got my hands on a chunk of the means of production. It aint all it's cracked up to be brother!

Digga

Mill Owner

[Randy Winkman]

Ozzie Osmond said:

For most of the 20th century the duty of the common man was to labour down the pit, at the steelworks or at the shipyard producing as much goods as possible.

But now we know that the "common man" didn't actually get the benefit of the work he was doing - so we certainly wont go back to that. I guess they'll work that out in China and India at some point.

[ringram]

High Tech industry, which requires education. Ah, ok UK FAIL!

The common man is now the common vegetable. He is worth nothing unless he has more skills than someone else.

[ShadownINja]

It's something I was thinking about and wondering how we could revive the manufacturing industry in this country. Germany seem to be doing well despite the competition from cheap goods from the Far East.

Shay HTFC said:

Correct, but unfortunately there is no divine rule of the universe that states we should have the right to high wages and expensive labour. If the rest of the world can do whatever we can do, but for cheaper, then the only way we can continue to compete is my working for less.

I agree; the problem is that we have this minimum wage thing plus people won't work for a lower salary as there are minimum living costs due to their lifestyles (children, heating, fuel).

[Talksteer]

JagLover said:

RobDickinson said:

Manufacturing steadily fell for the whole of the 20th centuary. At the start the UK produced something like 85% of the worlds manufactured goods!

The UK's share of world manufacturing was 18.5 % in 1900. At its peak (as a result of the Uk being the first nation to industrialise) we accounted for 23% of world manufacturing output (in 1880).

Depends on what you define as manufacturing, at certain points in time the UK may have produced 85% of the worlds factory produced goods, or a similar volume of "advanced"manufacturing.

[Shay HTFC]

ShadownINja said:

I agree; the problem is that we have this minimum wage thing plus people won't work for a lower salary as there are minimum living costs due to their lifestyles (children, heating, fuel).

Well something is going to give then and they won't have a choice other than to work for less when big employers choose to relocate abroad and get the same quality of work for cheaper (where the locals don't have such luxurious lifestyles to support).
Globalisation means that as a working person, you are not just competing against other people in your town or country, but with other people from across the globe.

[Digga]

Shay HTFC said:

ShadownINja said:

I agree; the problem is that we have this minimum wage thing plus people won't work for a lower salary as there are minimum living costs due to their lifestyles (children, heating, fuel).

Well something is going to give then and they won't have a choice other than to work for less when big employers choose to relocate abroad and get the same quality of work for cheaper (where the locals don't have such luxurious lifestyles to support).
Globalisation means that as a working person, you are not just competing against other people in your town or country, but with other people from across the globe.

It's such an obvious, basic fact but it's almost always totally overlooked. The unions (clearly) have an interest in adopting a one-eyed approach, but why does the government (and the EU) delude itself into thinking the issue can be swept under the carpet? in the long term, failure to compete will be fatal.

[munroman]

ShadownINja said:

It's something I was thinking about and wondering how we could revive the manufacturing industry in this country. Germany seem to be doing well despite the competition from cheap goods from the Far East.

Shay HTFC said:

Correct, but unfortunately there is no divine rule of the universe that states we should have the right to high wages and expensive labour. If the rest of the world can do whatever we can do, but for cheaper, then the only way we can continue to compete is my working for less.

I agree; the problem is that we have this minimum wage thing plus people won't work for a lower salary as there are minimum living costs due to their lifestyles (children, heating, fuel).

Manufacturing is going to go through massive changes in the next few years as home based micro manufacturing kicks off.

You can already had a 3D scanner and a 'Replicator' machine for less than a grand, this technology will transform the manufacturing/retail model every bit as much as the Home computer did for printing. (IMHO)

Having used this sort of technology for Rapid Prototyping when it was at the University stage, a lot of products/spare parts, especially of plastics could be easily made right now, with infinite customising potential, as many of the limitations of conventional processes are eliminated.

The reckoning is that in 5 years time if you want a new mobile you could make it at home, the money will be in the design.

People are already making custom cakes with it, pretty much anything that can be extruded can be used.

http://www.makerbot.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RepRap_Project

[Tsippy]

Larry Dickman said:

I hope we do return to a producing nation, we've turned into a nation of phone answerers & unfortunately RobDickinson is right.

And the telephone jobs are going to India

I wonder if we can outsource MPs to India as they'd be cheaper?

[ShadownINja]

Thanks for the replies. Very interesting!

So, what happens when China build a MakerBot and sell it for £50? And then Chinese housewives use their £50 MakerBots to make those £5 ducks you were selling on ebay to sell for just £1?

Edited by ShadownINja on Wednesday 12th January 11:00

[plasticpig]

munroman said:

The reckoning is that in 5 years time if you want a new mobile you could make it at home, the money will be in the design.

More like 20+ years time IMO if at all. To create such a complex device from scratch would at home would require advanced nanotechnology. Nanotechnology is still in its infancy.

[Ozzie Osmond]

powerstroke said:

the only thing we seem to have been able to do is get the worst most lazy and feckless to breed like rabits live on benifits, and import hardworking eastern europeans to do the low skilled work....

It is a big question why we spend a small fortune on a shool system which often achieves so little. It seems a relatively rudimentary type of schooling (India, Poland, China?) can deliver more in the right hands than our own approach.

[munroman]

ShadownINja said:

Thanks for the replies. Very interesting!

So, what happens when China build a MakerBot and sell it for £50? And then Chinese housewives use their £50 MakerBots to make those £5 ducks you were selling on ebay to sell for just £1?

Edited by ShadownINja on Wednesday 12th January 11:00

That's where shipping cost, time and 'now' mentality all kick in.

If you want to 'save' £4 on the duck, you still have freight and packaging costs, wait at least a week, and it would not be the exact duck you really wanted.

Plus, in the future, if you have a duck you wanted rid off, just chuck it in the grinder and use the plastic for the new duck, so there is no waste to be chucked out, that changes another set of markets.

And if a Makerbot is £50, then more people will have one at home!

If you look at the recent history of Chinese manufacturing, a number of companies are moving out, some back to the US, some to places like Vietnam.

China has lots of looming issues like the pampered one child generation, and rocketing wages. A friend owns a couple of manufacturing companies in China, most of his Export market has gone as the RMB has appreciated, and he has shortages of skilled labour, with a high turnover of lower grade labour. (and I would rate him as one of the better run companies I have seen, certainly not a 'sweat shop' with no running water like some I saw.)

Remember, all trends turn at some point, and new technologies can lead to massive and rapid changes in society.