Did the Pope perform a miracle?

[andr3w]

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

I believe in a divine architect.

I don't believe in an organisation called the Church.

That's not something I would expect to see you write.

This is a genuine question, what do you believe this 'divine architect' to be?

It'd take all week.

Damn I'm honestly interested.

Just someone or something which designed us/everything.

It's all too mathematically perfect.

It seems perfect because life on Earth has evolved to suit the conditions that were already here. If it was too warm on Earth for life we just wouldn't be here to discuss this.

If this Universe seems too mathematically perfect, how does it help to explain it by proposing an designer entity that would have to be several orders of magnitude more complex itself? Proposing this entity doesn't help to explain anything, it just moves the problem back one step. Who designed the designer?

[Derek Smith]

We are, or at least you lot are, by no means perfect. From the appendix to biting your cheeks when eating, there's a lot that could, and probably will eventually if we last that long, be designed to be more efficient.

We cannot be perfect because we are still evolving to suit our environment. Ginger hair, I remember reading, will disappear in a very few generations, and something really needs to be done about teeth. We have, according to my dentist, the teeth for some other animal. They do not suit our needs and haven't for some time.

As to whther the universe is perfect or not, it is true that if certain circumstances changed, such as gravity being a little bit less heavy, there would be, to our eyes, chaos. But then the universe doesn't care. It would be just as happy with the place if it was full of photons. If it was designed for us then there are a few things that could do with changing. The fact that we are not suited to space because all sorts of nasty things out there will kill us is a pointer that we're stuck here for the forseeable.

The sun could do with a bit of a makeover. We could do without these massive variations in environment for a start. if you bought an electric fire that made your room vary between a freezer and a hothouse you'd take it back and complain to the shop manager. But there is, apparently, no sale of goods act with our sun.

We don't know if the universe is in any way 'perfect' because we don't know the universe. We give the grand name to dark energy to something that we deduce must exist because its influence in universal but we can't find it, touch it, put it in a box and prod it so we have very limited knowledge about what makes things tick.

The ury is out on whether the universe is indeed perfect but it has already reached its conclusion about us. We are changing.

[ge0rge]

No, the end.

[unrepentant]

Regardless of whether or not he performed a "miracle" the idea of beatifying this man, who repeatedly told poor Africans that they could not use condoms and therefore accelerated and perpetuated the spread of AIDS is obscene. Saint my arse.

[MilnerR]

Arguing over the colour of unicorns IMHO!

[Romanymagic]

MilnerR said:

Arguing over the colour of unicorns IMHO!

Pink surely!?

[Drclarke]

Soovy said:

I believe in a divine architect.

I don't believe in an organisation called the Church.

I assume your divine architect is the one who designed your imaginary cellar?

[MilnerR]

Romanymagic said:

MilnerR said:

Arguing over the colour of unicorns IMHO!

Pink surely!?

You're a pink unicornist! I am a member of the reformed church of the blue unicorn (praise be upon him), and your continued heretic stance, that plainly goes against all the factual teachings laid down in the book of "my little pony," leaves me disgusted and deeply offended! Apologise or face the wrath of:



Infidel scum!

[otolith]

Idolatry! Burn the u**corn picturing heretic!

[MilnerR]

See how quickly these things escalate....

[harryowl]

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

I believe in a divine architect.

I don't believe in an organisation called the Church.

That's not something I would expect to see you write.

This is a genuine question, what do you believe this 'divine architect' to be?

It'd take all week.

Damn I'm honestly interested.

Just someone or something which designed us/everything.

It's all too mathematically perfect.

That's the ting. It isn't perfect. If there is a 'divine architect' then why, for example does the giraffe's laryngeal nerve go all the from the brain, down the neck, round the aorta and all the way back up the neck to the larynx?

Edited by harryowl on Tuesday 18th January 11:43

[wolves_wanderer]

harryowl said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

I believe in a divine architect.

I don't believe in an organisation called the Church.

That's not something I would expect to see you write.

This is a genuine question, what do you believe this 'divine architect' to be?

It'd take all week.

Damn I'm honestly interested.

Just someone or something which designed us/everything.

It's all too mathematically perfect.

That's the ting. It isn't perfect. If there is a 'divine architect' then why, for example does the giraffe's laryngeal nerve go all the from the brain, down the neck, round the aorta and all the way back up the neck to the larynx?

Edited by harryowl on Tuesday 18th January 11:43

Left-over materials?

[IainT]

harryowl said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

I believe in a divine architect.

I don't believe in an organisation called the Church.

That's not something I would expect to see you write.

This is a genuine question, what do you believe this 'divine architect' to be?

It'd take all week.

Damn I'm honestly interested.

Just someone or something which designed us/everything.

It's all too mathematically perfect.

That's the ting. It isn't perfect. If there is a 'divine architect' then why, for example does the giraffe's laryngeal nerve go all the from the brain, down the neck, round the aorta and all the way back up the neck to the larynx?

Edited by harryowl on Tuesday 18th January 11:43

To be fair Soozy said "mathematically perfect". One assumes referrign to the underlying symmetry and rules that appear to govern the universe.

The coutner to that is that, given there are a set of rules how could the outcome not be mathematically perfect?

No need to anything but nature (i.e. physics).

[XJ40]

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

I believe in a divine architect.

I don't believe in an organisation called the Church.

That's not something I would expect to see you write.

This is a genuine question, what do you believe this 'divine architect' to be?

It'd take all week.

Damn I'm honestly interested.

Just someone or something which designed us/everything.

It's all too mathematically perfect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

Edited by XJ40 on Tuesday 18th January 13:14

[Prof Prolapse]

IainT said:

harryowl said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

theboyfold said:

Soovy said:

I believe in a divine architect.

I don't believe in an organisation called the Church.

That's not something I would expect to see you write.

This is a genuine question, what do you believe this 'divine architect' to be?

It'd take all week.

Damn I'm honestly interested.

Just someone or something which designed us/everything.

It's all too mathematically perfect.

That's the ting. It isn't perfect. If there is a 'divine architect' then why, for example does the giraffe's laryngeal nerve go all the from the brain, down the neck, round the aorta and all the way back up the neck to the larynx?

To be fair Soozy said "mathematically perfect". One assumes referrign to the underlying symmetry and rules that appear to govern the universe.

The coutner to that is that, given there are a set of rules how could the outcome not be mathematically perfect?

No need to anything but nature (i.e. physics).

It's quite straight forward really. As the biology example illustrates, anyone with access to a few hours and wikipedia will tell you it really isn't perfect (whatever that means). The examples in biology are huge, why do whales have hip bones? Why do we have an appendix which serves (almost) no function at all but can become blocked, infected and kill us at any time?

Or if we're being philopsophical, in a perfect world, why do children die of leukeamia due to potential faults built in to us?

If there is a sentient designer then... Well he's a bit of a skilled moron really. That or he has a really fking sick sense of humour.

With regards to physics / maths it's quite simple really. The universal constants are incredibly tight. Slight variation would be devastating. I.e. no universe. So it really couldn't be any other way. How could a being in a universe contemplate the universal constants if there was no universe (and no being!).

Complexity does not logically infer creation. As mentioned it's antropic, "or arguement from design" principle. Which any respectable philosopher from the last few hundred years will point out is utter gumpf.

Google the evolution of the eye. It's a fantastically complicated piece of kit but it's evolved independently about 9 times... The human eye also has massive bloody blind spot because some tosser attached the light receptor cells the wrong way around.

Autistic ammoral designer perhaps?