Discussion
^^ True, it's rarely worth chopping in what you have in an attempt to save at the pump.
However, I think the point is that there are plenty of people out there that are buying new cars because it's thier natural time to buy a replacement car. In these cases then it is definitely logical to think about a more economical model.
However, I think the point is that there are plenty of people out there that are buying new cars because it's thier natural time to buy a replacement car. In these cases then it is definitely logical to think about a more economical model.
dave9 said:
IT IS NOT THE OIL COMPANIES MILKING US DRY MATE. IT IS NOT REALLY THE GOVERNMENT THAT MUCH EITHER. Fuel is just more expensive, look at the exchange rate and yes, ok they tax it but not that much more than other european countries and we do live in a small country.
Dave, how can you say that!When an essential product is highly taxed, then taxed again on the tax, and the total taxation rate is over 100% (in this case well over) then we know we're being well and truly shafted. Just because some other countries are being shafted by the same degree doesn't make it acceptable.
dave9 said:
we need the money, plain and simple. labour passed on a massive deficit.
the honest answer is we need to increase income tax,increase vat, increase national insurance, increase fuel duty, increase stealth taxes and cut spending.
find the figures on the net - we are STILL spending tens and tens of billions of pounds each year more than we get in revenue. We have not yet started cutting the deficit.
.the honest answer is we need to increase income tax,increase vat, increase national insurance, increase fuel duty, increase stealth taxes and cut spending.
find the figures on the net - we are STILL spending tens and tens of billions of pounds each year more than we get in revenue. We have not yet started cutting the deficit.
WOW, the country is really f
ked then.<sniped> the honest answer is we need to increase income tax,increase vat, increase national insurance, increase fuel duty, increase stealth taxes and cut spending.
So if we are finding it tough now, what hope is there for us for the future?
'vette
voyds9 said:
croyde said:
Nevermind, when the profits from North Sea Oil come through we will all live like Arab Sheiks 
It happened but you have to be a single parent, with 5 kids and no job.
I think these type should be shipped over to eastern Europe to replace the hardworking Poles etc that came here it's only fair
Edited by powerstroke on Sunday 16th January 09:10
Of course tax is high, and the oil companies blame the government for the tax (which is the bulk of the price) and the government blame the oil companies.
Whats interesting is that nobody blames the oil futures speculators?
Im sure there was an article recently that states oil future traders were "determined" to push oil past 100 USD a barrel.
The same is going on across commoditys markets, lots of traders/investors running scared from asset and credit markets see commodities as a easy tap to bolster their profits from, pushing up the price of oil, gas, wheat and other staple goods that are in growing demand because of rising consumption and affluence in markets such as china and india.
Of course the morality of deliberatly creating margins out of basis living requirements is highly questionable, but I suspect a large amount of the rises in prices is yet another speculator bubble rather than rising production costs or companies price gouging.
To be fair to the oil companies, not all the profit they make is down to the rising cost of a barrel, after all in the majority of cases oil is pumped on license from OPEC states or other national owned beds such as Norway so the biggest beneficiaries are the states - UK is estimated for a 2BN windfall by rising prices alone.
At least a percentage of oil companies profit increases are driven by opening new fields, reducing costs and increasing refinery capacity - all of which costs billions in R&D and investment. The owners of the oil get huge windfalls as do the speculators without investing anything.
Whats interesting is that nobody blames the oil futures speculators?
Im sure there was an article recently that states oil future traders were "determined" to push oil past 100 USD a barrel.
The same is going on across commoditys markets, lots of traders/investors running scared from asset and credit markets see commodities as a easy tap to bolster their profits from, pushing up the price of oil, gas, wheat and other staple goods that are in growing demand because of rising consumption and affluence in markets such as china and india.
Of course the morality of deliberatly creating margins out of basis living requirements is highly questionable, but I suspect a large amount of the rises in prices is yet another speculator bubble rather than rising production costs or companies price gouging.
To be fair to the oil companies, not all the profit they make is down to the rising cost of a barrel, after all in the majority of cases oil is pumped on license from OPEC states or other national owned beds such as Norway so the biggest beneficiaries are the states - UK is estimated for a 2BN windfall by rising prices alone.
At least a percentage of oil companies profit increases are driven by opening new fields, reducing costs and increasing refinery capacity - all of which costs billions in R&D and investment. The owners of the oil get huge windfalls as do the speculators without investing anything.
The oilcos really don't care about forecourts. Most of them have been or are being sold off, as the majors just don't want downstream operations in Europe any more as there's no growth in demand. Look at how many refineries are for sale or closed. Everything is going east, and I don't mean Norwich.
dave9 said:
croyde said:
Sorry I am being fik here but it is announced when the government is adding tax to fuel yet between those times the pump prices appear to continue to rise on a week by week basis.
Or do I imagine it?
I'm not siding with the people in power just asking the question as I too think that the tax and tax on tax situation is pretty unbearable.
oil is going up croyde, no question about it mate. just google oil prices or look at the market data on the bbc website.Or do I imagine it?
I'm not siding with the people in power just asking the question as I too think that the tax and tax on tax situation is pretty unbearable.
roughly a $2 rise in oil prices means a penny increase at the pump - oil has been rising recently and it takes a bit of time to filter through.
IT IS NOT THE OIL COMPANIES MILKING US DRY MATE. IT IS NOT REALLY THE GOVERNMENT THAT MUCH EITHER. Fuel is just more expensive, look at the exchange rate and yes, ok they tax it but not that much more than other european countries and we do live in a small country.
we need the money, plain and simple. labour passed on a massive deficit.
the honest answer is we need to increase income tax,increase vat, increase national insurance, increase fuel duty, increase stealth taxes and cut spending.
find the figures on the net - we are STILL spending tens and tens of billions of pounds each year more than we get in revenue. We have not yet started cutting the deficit.
We don't need to increase taxes. Not at all. Just massively cut spending. Decimate the layers of government and public 'service'; slash the welfare state; watch the immigrants become emigrants and then wait for things to balance.
Of course non of this will happen because no-one in this government, the last or the next will have the balls to do it.
Oh and by the way, there are no grounds for recent oil price rises other than speculation and market manipulation.
DSM2 said:
dave9 said:
croyde said:
Sorry I am being fik here but it is announced when the government is adding tax to fuel yet between those times the pump prices appear to continue to rise on a week by week basis.
Or do I imagine it?
I'm not siding with the people in power just asking the question as I too think that the tax and tax on tax situation is pretty unbearable.
oil is going up croyde, no question about it mate. just google oil prices or look at the market data on the bbc website.Or do I imagine it?
I'm not siding with the people in power just asking the question as I too think that the tax and tax on tax situation is pretty unbearable.
roughly a $2 rise in oil prices means a penny increase at the pump - oil has been rising recently and it takes a bit of time to filter through.
IT IS NOT THE OIL COMPANIES MILKING US DRY MATE. IT IS NOT REALLY THE GOVERNMENT THAT MUCH EITHER. Fuel is just more expensive, look at the exchange rate and yes, ok they tax it but not that much more than other european countries and we do live in a small country.
we need the money, plain and simple. labour passed on a massive deficit.
the honest answer is we need to increase income tax,increase vat, increase national insurance, increase fuel duty, increase stealth taxes and cut spending.
find the figures on the net - we are STILL spending tens and tens of billions of pounds each year more than we get in revenue. We have not yet started cutting the deficit.
We don't need to increase taxes. Not at all. Just massively cut spending. Decimate the layers of government and public 'service'; slash the welfare state; watch the immigrants become emigrants and then wait for things to balance.
Of course non of this will happen because no-one in this government, the last or the next will have the balls to do it.
Oh and by the way, there are no grounds for recent oil price rises other than speculation and market manipulation.
What would you propose that's both realistic and likely ?
DSM2 said:
We don't need to increase taxes. Not at all. Just massively cut spending. Decimate the layers of government and public 'service'; slash the welfare state; watch the immigrants become emigrants and then wait for things to balance.
Of course non of this will happen because no-one in this government, the last or the next will have the balls to do it.
Oh and by the way, there are no grounds for recent oil price rises other than speculation and market manipulation.
Cut it by 10 then?;Of course non of this will happen because no-one in this government, the last or the next will have the balls to do it.
Oh and by the way, there are no grounds for recent oil price rises other than speculation and market manipulation.
DSM2 said:
We don't need to increase taxes. Not at all. Just massively cut spending. Decimate the layers of government and public 'service'; slash the welfare state; watch the immigrants become emigrants and then wait for things to balance.
Of course non of this will happen because no-one in this government, the last or the next will have the balls to do it.
Oh and by the way, there are no grounds for recent oil price rises other than speculation and market manipulation.
I must admit, I did let out a bit of a chuckle there.Of course non of this will happen because no-one in this government, the last or the next will have the balls to do it.
Oh and by the way, there are no grounds for recent oil price rises other than speculation and market manipulation.
Back in the real world, we will either need to increase taxes or target certain taxes that are having the most impact and cut them selectively, but put it on elsewhere. You can't just chop away everything like you are saying. What will happen is massive massive amounts of people displacement on a scale never seen before.
Lets say what you're saying did happen, the public service was cut by 50%, government was cut by 50%, and the welfare state funding was also cut by 50%. What do you think would happen? Its not all down to immigration...
Lets pretend that there are 1 million people employed in the public sector, and you chop 50% of them - that's 500,000 new people who've suddenly lost everything - they're now on the dole. Lets also say that the dole queues are already at 2 million, they've just gone up by 25%, but the money to fund them has been cut by half - so now you have 2 and a half million people, funded by enough money to support 1.25 million.
Where do you think these people will go? There are jobs around - yes, but that's not to say they are suitable for everyone - and unless you want Britain to be a nation of shelf stackers, macd's burger flippers and car park attendants its simply not going to work.
It isn't a case of the Government not having "the balls" to implement severe cuts, it is simply a case that doing so would create untold social anarchy. And you can't then rely on the Police - being that they're a public sector operative and in the interests of fairness, they've been cut by half in the decimation of public sector workers.
Maybe the miltary? That's then looking towards not just a Police state, but a military state. It won't happen. Not because of lack of balls - because it simply cannot happen without seriously affecting the stability of the country.
I'm as committed a tory voter as you can get, I'll say that now - but you can't just 'fix' everything by cleaving spending. The Government should be trying to get the public to spend their money on stuff that benefits the country, rather than taking ever increasing amounts of it off them under the auspices of taxation to cut the defecit.
A cut in fuel duty would dramatically help the country - pretty much everything essential would become more affordable, meaning people are spending more money in the economy and as such the economy doesn't slump. As it is, a lot of people have no money, taxes are going up, and there are becoming real threats to the losses of homes along with everything else people have worked for.
Of course, with "green" being the current buzzword it will never happen. The sooner the country wakes up to the fact we aren't rich enough to be green, and forcing people through taxation only serves to negatively impact the green movement, the better.
In the new yesterday it mentions "Fuel discounts for remote areas being considered"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12203099
guy_spyder550 said:
In the new yesterday it mentions "Fuel discounts for remote areas being considered"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12203099
It will be the north of scotland so scotland gets a better deal and cameron can push to dump scotland.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12203099
[sarcasm]Oh joy[/sarcasm]
yeah thats what i'm saying - the goverment can't really cut spending as there is so much outrage.
look at the child benefit cut and what outrage there was for HIGHER RATE taxpayers
now, imagine if you cut disability allowance, or the NHS budget, or carers allowance etc.
personally i'd prefer to cut spending on things like housing allowance and to be tougher on other things such as our overseas aid budget but it just won't happen.
yes, the government taxes our fuel but so does every other european nation - i'd prefer it to be lower but it is what it is.
our debt is going to be 2 trillion soon. Yes, no longer billions but now we are talking trillions. Our debt is not predicted to get smaller for many many years - it is STILL RISING. So, to stop it from even rising we need to increase taxes and/or cut spending. its pretty simple really
look at the child benefit cut and what outrage there was for HIGHER RATE taxpayers
now, imagine if you cut disability allowance, or the NHS budget, or carers allowance etc.
personally i'd prefer to cut spending on things like housing allowance and to be tougher on other things such as our overseas aid budget but it just won't happen.
yes, the government taxes our fuel but so does every other european nation - i'd prefer it to be lower but it is what it is.
our debt is going to be 2 trillion soon. Yes, no longer billions but now we are talking trillions. Our debt is not predicted to get smaller for many many years - it is STILL RISING. So, to stop it from even rising we need to increase taxes and/or cut spending. its pretty simple really
andyjo1982 said:
Noticed a little snippit in the sun petrol related, some guy filling up a Veyron, Paid £192 for a full tank at 159.9 at litre in Chelsea area...
If he can afford a Veyron £192 would be what he could find down the back of his sofa. I'm glad he can afford to spend. That's around £115 back to the exchequer.DSM2 said:
dave9 said:
croyde said:
Sorry I am being fik here but it is announced when the government is adding tax to fuel yet between those times the pump prices appear to continue to rise on a week by week basis.
Or do I imagine it?
I'm not siding with the people in power just asking the question as I too think that the tax and tax on tax situation is pretty unbearable.
oil is going up croyde, no question about it mate. just google oil prices or look at the market data on the bbc website.Or do I imagine it?
I'm not siding with the people in power just asking the question as I too think that the tax and tax on tax situation is pretty unbearable.
roughly a $2 rise in oil prices means a penny increase at the pump - oil has been rising recently and it takes a bit of time to filter through.
IT IS NOT THE OIL COMPANIES MILKING US DRY MATE. IT IS NOT REALLY THE GOVERNMENT THAT MUCH EITHER. Fuel is just more expensive, look at the exchange rate and yes, ok they tax it but not that much more than other european countries and we do live in a small country.
we need the money, plain and simple. labour passed on a massive deficit.
the honest answer is we need to increase income tax,increase vat, increase national insurance, increase fuel duty, increase stealth taxes and cut spending.
find the figures on the net - we are STILL spending tens and tens of billions of pounds each year more than we get in revenue. We have not yet started cutting the deficit.
We don't need to increase taxes. Not at all. Just massively cut spending. Decimate the layers of government and public 'service'; slash the welfare state; watch the immigrants become emigrants and then wait for things to balance.
Of course non of this will happen because no-one in this government, the last or the next will have the balls to do it.
Oh and by the way, there are no grounds for recent oil price rises other than speculation and market manipulation.
when people talk of sending immigrants home ie the BNP the country is in outrage.
would you cut state pensions?
funding the police
the nhs
schools
the defence budget
the welfare state (would be my choice) but it won't happen!! fiscal drag can play a part but that isn't significant enough imo
market manipulation on oil prices - that is what a market is - it finds the right price. if you think oil is going higher invest in an etf and make a profit on it and don't worry about fuel prices - its called risk and reward.
iran is important at the moment as chairman of opec and they aren't increasing productivity even if it gets to $120 per barrel.
as much as i'd like lower petrol costs i don't see why we should force people to give it us any cheaper - its only 40 pence per litre anyway.
as for the government well we KNOW THEY WILL TAX IT MORE look at the fuel duty escalator and so on. It is a fact it will happen, but cars have become more economical and that takes some of the edge off, road tax has gone down too for people that understand emmissions - a mini cooper d costs nothing to tax and does 74mpg. Yes, it costs to change but in the LONG RUN everyone changes their car, maybe not to a new car but for £1500 you can get a diesel audi a4 that does 50mpg - I know as my mate has got one!
complain all you like but it won't get us anywhere as we are in a financial mess. Cut fuel duty means they need to make it up in some other way such as more council tax, more income tax, more national insurance, increasing your state pension age beyone age 68 or cutting services such as the ambulance if you have a road traffic accident may take longer to come etc.
i personally disagree with all this tax and would prefer to cut spending via the welfare state, but it is not, in the main, what the country wants hence all the tax
Anyone notice this gem from Chris Huhne?
Huhne said:
His comments came as Energy Secretary Chris Huhne acknowledged that rising fuel prices could ‘potentially have devastating effects on employment’ – but said fuel duty should be kept high in the long term for environmental reasons.
There you have it. Fuel will never return to reasonable prices because of green idiocy.Much as I hate to admit it, the green argument behind ever-increasing fuel prices and punitive road tax pricing is actually working. It's now normal to check a car's green credentials before going any further with a purchase because the government have added a tangible bill to buying a vehicle with high consumption, and I can only see the CO2 emissions criteria getting more stringent with time.
The choice of cars offering 60+ mpg would now suit most tastes, drop the criteria to 50mpg or 40mpg and you'll find a massive choice from the smallest to largest & most luxurious vehicles. 20 years ago, maybe even 10, these cars just didn't exist. Market forces have prised decent economy out of the car manufacturers, market forces which have been created by the government charging extortionate taxes on fuel. Would our Americans friends still be driving gas-guzzlers if they paid as much as we do for fuel?
The choice of cars offering 60+ mpg would now suit most tastes, drop the criteria to 50mpg or 40mpg and you'll find a massive choice from the smallest to largest & most luxurious vehicles. 20 years ago, maybe even 10, these cars just didn't exist. Market forces have prised decent economy out of the car manufacturers, market forces which have been created by the government charging extortionate taxes on fuel. Would our Americans friends still be driving gas-guzzlers if they paid as much as we do for fuel?
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