Should Graduates be banned from taking Apprenticeships?
Discussion
Apprenticeships are booming apparently, according to the 'figures'.
What the 'figures' don’t tell you is that many Graduates are being forced to take apprenticeships in order to get 'any kind of job'.
So the question is, are employers taking advantage of the current job climate to get Graduates into roles that are paid way less than the people are really worth? Are they being exploited?
Therefore, should graduates be banned from taking Apprenticeships, in order to stop companies exploiting the lack of other work available for them, and thus avoiding even having to pay minimum wage?
I know a company that I used to work for had a terrible habit of employing Univercity leavers on dire rates of pay with the excuse that they were some kind of 'modern apprentice', and getting them a living wage (as a manager myself) was neigh on impossible. They'd be doing the same work as their collegues for a third of the wages.
What the 'figures' don’t tell you is that many Graduates are being forced to take apprenticeships in order to get 'any kind of job'.
So the question is, are employers taking advantage of the current job climate to get Graduates into roles that are paid way less than the people are really worth? Are they being exploited?
Therefore, should graduates be banned from taking Apprenticeships, in order to stop companies exploiting the lack of other work available for them, and thus avoiding even having to pay minimum wage?
I know a company that I used to work for had a terrible habit of employing Univercity leavers on dire rates of pay with the excuse that they were some kind of 'modern apprentice', and getting them a living wage (as a manager myself) was neigh on impossible. They'd be doing the same work as their collegues for a third of the wages.
Just because someone has attended a University and graduated does not mean that they understand how to do a job, therefore it's necessary for them to go through a 'learning phase' to understand what they need to do. Afterall, why would you pay anymore than minimum wage (if that) for someone who is incapable of carrying out their role? So makes sense to stick them on an apprenticeship until they're ready and able.
Tsippy said:
Just because someone has attended a University and graduated does not mean that they understand how to do a job, therefore it's necessary for them to go through a 'learning phase' to understand what they need to do. Afterall, why would you pay anymore than minimum wage (if that) for someone who is incapable of carrying out their role? So makes sense to stick them on an apprenticeship until they're ready and able.
So, the government gives a subsidy to an employer so that he they take on a number of apprentices a year, but instead of taking on the non univercity educated school leavers to train them to do a job, as was intended, whilst paying them £2.25 per hour (as an example quoted this morning on the radio), the employer now takes advantage of the system and employees the 'best candidate' for the job which turns out to be desperate Univercity Graduates instead. People we, the tax payer, have already subsidised to get their education to enable them to get 'proper jobs' that allow contributions of reasonable levels of taxation to help pay back their previous subsidies. And you think that's right? Hope you dont have kids that fall into this trap.Companies usually take on graduates at a reasonable starting rate, then up that rate as they gain experience. The starting rate shouldn't be £2.25 an hour though....
Corsair7 said:
Apprenticeships are booming apparently, according to the 'figures'.
What the 'figures' don’t tell you is that many Graduates are being forced to take apprenticeships in order to get 'any kind of job'.
So the question is, are employers taking advantage of the current job climate to get Graduates into roles that are paid way less than the people are really worth? Are they being exploited?
Therefore, should graduates be banned from taking Apprenticeships, in order to stop companies exploiting the lack of other work available for them, and thus avoiding even having to pay minimum wage?
I know a company that I used to work for had a terrible habit of employing Univercity leavers on dire rates of pay with the excuse that they were some kind of 'modern apprentice', and getting them a living wage (as a manager myself) was neigh on impossible. They'd be doing the same work as their collegues for a third of the wages.
please substantiate the claim that the figures don't tell us. i reckon this is a load of crap tbh.What the 'figures' don’t tell you is that many Graduates are being forced to take apprenticeships in order to get 'any kind of job'.
So the question is, are employers taking advantage of the current job climate to get Graduates into roles that are paid way less than the people are really worth? Are they being exploited?
Therefore, should graduates be banned from taking Apprenticeships, in order to stop companies exploiting the lack of other work available for them, and thus avoiding even having to pay minimum wage?
I know a company that I used to work for had a terrible habit of employing Univercity leavers on dire rates of pay with the excuse that they were some kind of 'modern apprentice', and getting them a living wage (as a manager myself) was neigh on impossible. They'd be doing the same work as their collegues for a third of the wages.
the only 'exploitation' of graduates imo is architects and fashion/media students.
architects as they do a year or so in practice between BA & MA. the most any of my friends got for this was £14k which was deemed by the others to be a fortune.
fashion and media graduates as most entry roles in a remotely interesting company will be unpaid. even for big name designers commanding £3k or more per dress.
poor pay in other fields is usually justifiable by status [i.e. fresh grad = next to useless for day to day operations], the amount being spent on the individual's training, and future earnings potential on completion of such.
imo. all geography students should be allowed to jump the queue on apprentice schemes so that they will be able to pass out with a useful skill.
in any other case, i would suggest that it's the employer getting the bum deal as a 16-17y.o will likely work for them for years. a grad. will jump asap.
Gaz. said:
So what would you rather these unemployed graduates do? Claim benefits with the scrotes who think certain jobs are below them?
If you were an employer what would you do?
Do you think the employers should be allowed to abuse the system, by offering 'apprenticeships' to people that are actually qualified to the the job in the first place? Most of these apprenticeships are after all subsidised by the government in the first place.... Its not that the Graduates dont have the qualifications forthe job, its that the employer seeks to take advantage of the situation to change a normal job into a low paid appreticeship in the first place. Aprenticeships have apparantly doubled in number this last 12 months. Perhaps thats at the cost of 'real' jobs?If you were an employer what would you do?
But yes, what are the unemployed graduates supposed to do....? They seem to have little choice in reality.
shirt said:
please substantiate the claim that the figures don't tell us. i reckon this is a load of crap tbh.
Sorry I cant for now, this was being discussed on the radio this morning, I cant find an article that 'prooves' what was being said was in anyway truthful, and as it was on the BBC you might well think it was biased.Will keep a look out for it though. The information I've given in the above though was all discussed on the radio. Seems to me odd that suddenly, after years of trying to get companies to offer apprentice scheems, they suddenly have 100% more places on offer now the job market for graduates is so poor....
davepoth said:
That's the thing, we won't be paying for them to get an education any more. The latest fee rise has students paying the commercial rate (what they charge to foreigners) to go to uni.
Thats not the case for current graduates though, or those that graduate before the rules change. As was said during the 'riots', most current or recently graduated students wont be facing those rises, it wont affect them (so why are they rioting?)..The reality is that most kids and graduates not trained for proffessional careers are next to useless for many employers.
They have no relevant skills or experience and can therefore simply not justify a high wage.
It takes time to train these folks into productive workers. Unfortunately many comanies cannot afford to spend £25K a year on someone who will not generate any revenue. Apprenticeships are a solution to this catch22.
We take on two apprentices per year at each venue. They are paid £400 per month plus travel. Let me be clear, for the first year they aren't worth this amount even! However, after a year they start to become cost neutral and by the time they finish they are generating money.
At the end of the two years we move them into a proper role, confident in the knowledge that they know what they're doing and won't just cost me a wad of cash.
I prefer to take our Apprentices on at 16. 18 at the latest. I feel I can mould them better at that age.
Finally, if there was no such thing as Apprenticeships, my business would struggle to expand at the rate I require.
They have no relevant skills or experience and can therefore simply not justify a high wage.
It takes time to train these folks into productive workers. Unfortunately many comanies cannot afford to spend £25K a year on someone who will not generate any revenue. Apprenticeships are a solution to this catch22.
We take on two apprentices per year at each venue. They are paid £400 per month plus travel. Let me be clear, for the first year they aren't worth this amount even! However, after a year they start to become cost neutral and by the time they finish they are generating money.
At the end of the two years we move them into a proper role, confident in the knowledge that they know what they're doing and won't just cost me a wad of cash.
I prefer to take our Apprentices on at 16. 18 at the latest. I feel I can mould them better at that age.
Finally, if there was no such thing as Apprenticeships, my business would struggle to expand at the rate I require.
Corsair7 said:
Tsippy said:
Just because someone has attended a University and graduated does not mean that they understand how to do a job, therefore it's necessary for them to go through a 'learning phase' to understand what they need to do. Afterall, why would you pay anymore than minimum wage (if that) for someone who is incapable of carrying out their role? So makes sense to stick them on an apprenticeship until they're ready and able.
So, the government gives a subsidy to an employer so that he they take on a number of apprentices a year, but instead of taking on the non univercity educated school leavers to train them to do a job, as was intended, whilst paying them £2.25 per hour (as an example quoted this morning on the radio), the employer now takes advantage of the system and employees the 'best candidate' for the job which turns out to be desperate Univercity Graduates instead. People we, the tax payer, have already subsidised to get their education to enable them to get 'proper jobs' that allow contributions of reasonable levels of taxation to help pay back their previous subsidies. And you think that's right? Hope you dont have kids that fall into this trap.Companies usually take on graduates at a reasonable starting rate, then up that rate as they gain experience. The starting rate shouldn't be £2.25 an hour though....
You'd be shocked at the literacy skills of many University graduates if you interviewed them, never mind their lack of common sense. An apprenticeship offers them the opportunity to learn job relevant skills that the education system has failed to do as it only teaches a broad base knowledge.
Tsippy said:
So you really think that a degree entitles a graduate to a high paying job without any experience? I hope you've never run your own business if you think that way!
You'd be shocked at the literacy skills of many University graduates if you interviewed them, never mind their lack of common sense. An apprenticeship offers them the opportunity to learn job relevant skills that the education system has failed to do as it only teaches a broad base knowledge.
You'd be shocked at the literacy skills of many University graduates if you interviewed them, never mind their lack of common sense. An apprenticeship offers them the opportunity to learn job relevant skills that the education system has failed to do as it only teaches a broad base knowledge.
Spot on.
Corsair7 said:
shirt said:
please substantiate the claim that the figures don't tell us. i reckon this is a load of crap tbh.
Sorry I cant for now, this was being discussed on the radio this morning, I cant find an article that 'prooves' what was being said was in anyway truthful, and as it was on the BBC you might well think it was biased.Will keep a look out for it though. The information I've given in the above though was all discussed on the radio. Seems to me odd that suddenly, after years of trying to get companies to offer apprentice scheems, they suddenly have 100% more places on offer now the job market for graduates is so poor....
£2.25 an hour = £90. as they have no history of NI contributions, a fresh grad. will get the upper amount which is, what, £105 now? plus housing benefit. i know as i did this between graduating and starting work [in the i was offered prior to graduation]. if a grad. can't do the maths on that then maybe the apprenticeship will be worthwhile.
PS. there are not 100% more places now. you have no sources or references for any of this, please don't BS. there are alos plenty of 'legit' reasons why firms would offer more apprenticeships in times of recession.
Edited by shirt on Thursday 10th February 17:33
Eric Mc said:
EVERY graduate should look at the first 2 or 3 years of their employment life as a form of apprenticeship.
At 21 with a red-brick 2i in a non-comical subject- that would be an appropriate ontological perspective, but if you're mid 20s with a red-brick quantitative PhD it should be enough to make it as an assistant tea-maker as opposed to trainee tea-maker. Tsippy said:
So you really think that a degree entitles a graduate to a high paying job without any experience? I hope you've never run your own business if you think that way!
You'd be shocked at the literacy skills of many University graduates if you interviewed them, never mind their lack of common sense. An apprenticeship offers them the opportunity to learn job relevant skills that the education system has failed to do as it only teaches a broad base knowledge.
You'd be shocked at the literacy skills of many University graduates if you interviewed them, never mind their lack of common sense. An apprenticeship offers them the opportunity to learn job relevant skills that the education system has failed to do as it only teaches a broad base knowledge.
Perhaps the most sensible contribution I've heard on PH in a long while. If a degree is so valuable don't take an apprenticeship. The market will determine your value, if an apprenticeship pays to little, don't take it. Hold out for the high paying job you feel entitled to; but don't be surprised if the market decides you are too expensive and gives you a wide birth. FFS if you increase the supply of graduates, the value (pay) goes down - a market that is functioning.
How long are these so called modern Apprenticeships, I'm sure I saw somewhere offering an 8 week apprenticeship in some nonsense.
Seems a joke this will only devalue the City & Guilds scheme that most traditionally worked through, its going to end up devalued like recent Uni Degrees.
Didn't all the Grads go to Uni to end higher up the food chain. ie middle management or proper titled engineers rather than been at the coalface and fully hands on.
For people looking to emigrate a proper Apprenticeship is probably the only way to prove your skills, I'm sure Aus Canada & the likes will have to pay more attention to this.
Myself I did a 4 year block and day release, which I carried on for a 5th year in the evenings.
Seems a joke this will only devalue the City & Guilds scheme that most traditionally worked through, its going to end up devalued like recent Uni Degrees.
Didn't all the Grads go to Uni to end higher up the food chain. ie middle management or proper titled engineers rather than been at the coalface and fully hands on.
For people looking to emigrate a proper Apprenticeship is probably the only way to prove your skills, I'm sure Aus Canada & the likes will have to pay more attention to this.
Myself I did a 4 year block and day release, which I carried on for a 5th year in the evenings.
Edited by 69 coupe on Thursday 10th February 20:02
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