"Women should reveal baby plans to bosses"
Discussion
...says Surallen Lord Sugar.
I hear pregnant women are neigh on 'unfireable' even if their work performance is well below par.
Linky to source
article said:
'I believe the employment regulations for women, whereby the prospective employer is not able to inquire about the interviewee's status regarding children or childcare – or indeed their intention of becoming a parent – are counterproductive. Some women may agree with me on this,' he said.
I know there are a lot of small business owners here on PH. I would be particularly interested to hear their opinions as losing a single member of staff in these situations can be a massive blow potentially taking the company under.I hear pregnant women are neigh on 'unfireable' even if their work performance is well below par.
Linky to source
I/I've run SMEs out in Dubai and it is blinding obvious that if a young Indian or Filipino woman is interviewed for a post, it is highly likely that with the next 6 months she will get up the duff, take maternity leave and not come back after.
Their odds of getting a job are significantly worse than someone older or who already has kids, especially if they have at least one boy.
Sad but that's the way it is.
It's less likely, especially now, that we have young western women looking for stuff.
Their odds of getting a job are significantly worse than someone older or who already has kids, especially if they have at least one boy.
Sad but that's the way it is.
It's less likely, especially now, that we have young western women looking for stuff.
g3org3y said:
I hear pregnant women are neigh on 'unfireable' even if their work performance is well below par.
You hear correctly, cost me £25k and nobody knew she was pregnant until after we'd fired her. Transpired we were well into the disciplinary process prior to her conceiving and she was asked to leave before even she knew - this didn't matter a jot.Another point to consider, announce to your boss you intend to get pregnant, what happens if you struggle to fall pregnant, you have potentially scuppered your chances of a job and still aren't pregnant 18months later and at the start of a waiting list that could be another 2years long. Or you could tell the boss and be pregnant the next month.
Pregnant women or women on mat leave can be fired or made redundant. IIRC there is an additional step during redundancy for women on mat leave but that's about it. If it is performance related then if you gone through appropriate procedures the it does not matter if they are pregnant or not.
I have a small business and employ women of a child bearing age. I will continue to do so. If my business is not flexible enough to respond to something that will have 5ish months of then we have far bigger problems.
We generally have lower staff turnover and better client feedback from our female staff. Sick leave is equal between sexes, general hassle is lower as there is no ego BS going on.
I appreciate that we are fortunate in our industry (consulting) to be able to operate an employment model that gives us and our staff flexibility.
I have a small business and employ women of a child bearing age. I will continue to do so. If my business is not flexible enough to respond to something that will have 5ish months of then we have far bigger problems.
We generally have lower staff turnover and better client feedback from our female staff. Sick leave is equal between sexes, general hassle is lower as there is no ego BS going on.
I appreciate that we are fortunate in our industry (consulting) to be able to operate an employment model that gives us and our staff flexibility.
Here's how it worked at my previous company.
There is always at one company a young lady who is the apple of the bosses eye (even though he isn't shagging her.), who often aren't even that good at their job but because they are protected from on high can wander around the place with their noses up in air. If anyone has any issues with their performance they run straight to the boss with the "H-T was nasty to me, boo-hoo," speech and you get a ton of bricks land on your head.
Then the chosen one anounces she is going to leave for a better job. Three days later it is proclaimed from high that she is going to stay but is "taking on extra work load as she is now also going to be so-so's personal assistant,". Four months after this decision, she reveals she is up the duff.
The kicker of course being that so-so worked on a remote site and in those four months she went to that remote site. once to be his personal assistant.
So what actually happened was.
"Hmmm.. I'd like a baby" says the Chosen One
"But we can't afford it and you'll never get a payrise in the current climate," says her hubby.
"You forget, I'm the Chosen One and the boss has daddy issues,"
"Sorrydaddy I mean boss, I've seen a better job and although I don't want to go its more money..."
"NO!!!!" thinks the boss "I'll have no-one to dream about, to stare longingly at, wishing she was my daughter, she's such a good little girl..."
One quick directors meeting later.
"Don't you worry your pretty little head about moving and money. We'll sort you out a payrise so you can stay,"
"But...but what about everyone else? Won't they get jealous when they find out I've had a payrise?"
"Don't concern yourself about that, we'll just create a non-job for you to do so we claim you are doing more work when in fact you aren't. It will be our little secret,"
"Oh goody! thank youdaddy Boss!"
When she gets home....
"What a dick. Played him like a fiddle. Right hubby, time to get the whipped cream and the riding crop out!"
Four months later...
"I'm preggers! Bye!! And don't forget add my payrise onto my maternity pay!!"
Then she comes back part time and they create another non-job for her to do at home, so then she was working part time, from home for the same money she was on full time. And she was still s
t at her job.
But don't worry, the company have now gone bust. I wonder why?
It might be the industry I'm in but this has happened at three companies I have worked for. Its like the girls have extra lessons at work to plan this st. Nice work if you can get it though.
There is always at one company a young lady who is the apple of the bosses eye (even though he isn't shagging her.), who often aren't even that good at their job but because they are protected from on high can wander around the place with their noses up in air. If anyone has any issues with their performance they run straight to the boss with the "H-T was nasty to me, boo-hoo," speech and you get a ton of bricks land on your head.
Then the chosen one anounces she is going to leave for a better job. Three days later it is proclaimed from high that she is going to stay but is "taking on extra work load as she is now also going to be so-so's personal assistant,". Four months after this decision, she reveals she is up the duff.
The kicker of course being that so-so worked on a remote site and in those four months she went to that remote site. once to be his personal assistant.
So what actually happened was.
"Hmmm.. I'd like a baby" says the Chosen One
"But we can't afford it and you'll never get a payrise in the current climate," says her hubby.
"You forget, I'm the Chosen One and the boss has daddy issues,"
"Sorry
"NO!!!!" thinks the boss "I'll have no-one to dream about, to stare longingly at, wishing she was my daughter, she's such a good little girl..."
One quick directors meeting later.
"Don't you worry your pretty little head about moving and money. We'll sort you out a payrise so you can stay,"
"But...but what about everyone else? Won't they get jealous when they find out I've had a payrise?"
"Don't concern yourself about that, we'll just create a non-job for you to do so we claim you are doing more work when in fact you aren't. It will be our little secret,"
"Oh goody! thank you
When she gets home....
"What a dick. Played him like a fiddle. Right hubby, time to get the whipped cream and the riding crop out!"
Four months later...
"I'm preggers! Bye!! And don't forget add my payrise onto my maternity pay!!"
Then she comes back part time and they create another non-job for her to do at home, so then she was working part time, from home for the same money she was on full time. And she was still s
t at her job.But don't worry, the company have now gone bust. I wonder why?
It might be the industry I'm in but this has happened at three companies I have worked for. Its like the girls have extra lessons at work to plan this s
t. Nice work if you can get it though.Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Sunday 6th March 13:48
bga said:
Pregnant women or women on mat leave can be fired or made redundant. IIRC there is an additional step during redundancy for women on mat leave but that's about it. If it is performance related then if you gone through appropriate procedures the it does not matter if they are pregnant or not.
I have a small business and employ women of a child bearing age. I will continue to do so. If my business is not flexible enough to respond to something that will have 5ish months of then we have far bigger problems.
We generally have lower staff turnover and better client feedback from our female staff. Sick leave is equal between sexes, general hassle is lower as there is no ego BS going on.
I appreciate that we are fortunate in our industry (consulting) to be able to operate an employment model that gives us and our staff flexibility.
And it's good that your business (I guess mostly contract based?) is able to manage around maternity leave quite well. But for other roles it can be a real problem. For roles where there's a bit of specialist knowledge needed it can be a real problem to find suitable cover, and if it is available it's at massive expense. Lucikly for me that's how I found myself in a job two days after starting to look.I have a small business and employ women of a child bearing age. I will continue to do so. If my business is not flexible enough to respond to something that will have 5ish months of then we have far bigger problems.
We generally have lower staff turnover and better client feedback from our female staff. Sick leave is equal between sexes, general hassle is lower as there is no ego BS going on.
I appreciate that we are fortunate in our industry (consulting) to be able to operate an employment model that gives us and our staff flexibility.
Hi BGA, with respect, have you ever had the need to fire someone that was pregnant regardless of whether you or they knew? I doubt it, as it doesn’t matter what the process is on paper, the actual real world results are either you are advised not to, or it costs you should the employee be bloody minded and seek ‘compo’ for their lack of ability/performance.
This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
DonnyMac said:
Hi BGA, with respect, have you ever had the need to fire someone that was pregnant regardless of whether you or they knew? I doubt it, as it doesn’t matter what the process is on paper, the actual real world results are either you are advised not to, or it costs you should the employee be bloody minded and seek ‘compo’ for their lack of ability/performance.
This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
My wife works in HR for a rather risk averse professional services firm. Unfortunately she has had to do both firing and redundancies of pregnant women. Like all dismissals the legal team working alongside HR give a strong opinion over it. Interestingly (or I think so at least) they are far more risk averse with with minorities than then are with women who are pregnant.This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
davepoth said:
And it's good that your business (I guess mostly contract based?) is able to manage around maternity leave quite well. But for other roles it can be a real problem. For roles where there's a bit of specialist knowledge needed it can be a real problem to find suitable cover, and if it is available it's at massive expense. Lucikly for me that's how I found myself in a job two days after starting to look.
Our income is mainly projects/contracts based but most of our employees are full time. We use contractors a bit to help level demand a bit and to spread risk on big projects. We are operate in a very niche area where specialist knowledge is required and I get your point about getting suitable cover in this area. I don't see it as any different to someone leaving us permanently - they are on 12 weeks notice and minimum maternity notification is 15 weeks to due date. From a risk management perspective (which is our area of expertise) we try to balance operational activities across a number of people so we have cover when people are tied up on difficult projects, on holidays etc. I won't say it's perfect or works really well all of the time but an outcome of that is that it is much easier to take things as they happen without us feeling the pain too much.
bga said:
DonnyMac said:
Hi BGA, with respect, have you ever had the need to fire someone that was pregnant regardless of whether you or they knew? I doubt it, as it doesn’t matter what the process is on paper, the actual real world results are either you are advised not to, or it costs you should the employee be bloody minded and seek ‘compo’ for their lack of ability/performance.
This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
My wife works in HR for a rather risk averse professional services firm. Unfortunately she has had to do both firing and redundancies of pregnant women. Like all dismissals the legal team working alongside HR give a strong opinion over it. Interestingly (or I think so at least) they are far more risk averse with with minorities than then are with women who are pregnant.This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
Yeah if the coalition want to help small businesses change employment laws.
Make hiring and firing the bosses responsibility. If he is an arse, then dont work for him.
If you are lazy no matter what minority you come from tough, you will get sacked, no comeback.
If you are good and in a minority you have nothing to fear.
I know a "company" who wont touch certain types of employee because of the strong anti capitalist employment laws. They are straight out of some communist manifesto at present.
Make hiring and firing the bosses responsibility. If he is an arse, then dont work for him.
If you are lazy no matter what minority you come from tough, you will get sacked, no comeback.
If you are good and in a minority you have nothing to fear.
I know a "company" who wont touch certain types of employee because of the strong anti capitalist employment laws. They are straight out of some communist manifesto at present.
bga said:
I get your point about getting suitable cover in this area. I don't see it as any different to someone leaving us permanently - they are on 12 weeks notice and minimum maternity notification is 15 weeks to due date.
A lot of the companies I've gone to interviews for have found that the big problem with specialist fields (my specialist field anyway) is that what people are out there don't want to work short term contracts. I'm just glad of the money. 
whoami said:
bga said:
DonnyMac said:
Hi BGA, with respect, have you ever had the need to fire someone that was pregnant regardless of whether you or they knew? I doubt it, as it doesn’t matter what the process is on paper, the actual real world results are either you are advised not to, or it costs you should the employee be bloody minded and seek ‘compo’ for their lack of ability/performance.
This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
My wife works in HR for a rather risk averse professional services firm. Unfortunately she has had to do both firing and redundancies of pregnant women. Like all dismissals the legal team working alongside HR give a strong opinion over it. Interestingly (or I think so at least) they are far more risk averse with with minorities than then are with women who are pregnant.This thread is running two topics, 1. Can your business survive 6 months mat leave – I agree with you here, if it cannot you have serious problems anyhow. 2. Are pregnant women ‘neigh’ on ‘unfireable’, real world answer is yes regardless of what the law/guidance is on the matter.
I have not discussed what people’s opinions of hiring women of childbearing age are, merely certain real world experiences of the only woman employee I’ve had that got pregnant after we’d made the decision to fire her. I currently have a woman who is looking forward to having a baby (but yet to conceive), her performance is excellent and I have no doubt will continue to be if/when she returns from mat leave should she conceive.
The potentially discriminatory and emotive decision of employing women of childbearing age is one thing, what I am offering is an example – take it as you will.
Thank god she wasn’t disabled as well
Eric Mc said:
And what would happen with unplanned pregancies?
Exactly the point.For as long as the law stays the way it is the sad fact will be that employing young women is a huge headache. As some may know, maternity pay includes an elemnt of "bonus" if a bonus has perviously been earned. One of my colleagues wanted to pay a one-off discretionary bonus to a pregnant woman. The situation was discussed and she promised him that she would say 'thank you' for the one-off bonus and not try to make any further claims based on it. Guess what happened next....?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff