Meanwhile, In Syria

[Puggit]

chris watton said:

Zod said:

chris watton said:

I had no idea that Brussels, the 'capital' of the EU is 40% Muslim!

The reason you had no idea is that it is not true. The correct figure is 20% (a high figure in itself). The problem is concentration in certain areas. Most of central Brussels is white European. Paris is the same, or in some ways worse; the Muslims are concentrated in vast, run-down, concrete estates in a ring outside the Peripherique.

Where did the 40% figure come from?

Also, do you have any evidence that your 20% is the truth, and if so, how up to date is the data?

How about 25.5%? http://www.npdata.be/BuG/100/

[QuantumTokoloshi]

AngryPartsBloke said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Transmitter Man said:

Turkish Air Force warning to Russian pilot;

http://theaviationist.com/2015/11/24/audio-tuaf-wa...

Phil

Odd, they were warning him while he was still in Syrian airspace, his time in Turkish airspace could not have lasted more than 10 seconds. I guess extending your airspace by 5 km into Syrian airspace allows you to blow whomever you like out of the sky. Strange logic.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-24/17-second...

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 25th November 09:28

Erm, No it isn't? You seem to contiunely post a lot on subjects you clearly have no experiance or real knwledge of.

You do not warn Aircraft, especially armed military aircraft, when they enter your airspace. You Warn them BEFORE as they approach your airspace. WHen they enter your airspace, that is the redline. That is when you take action. What is so hard about that very simple concept for you to grasp?

Launching a missile on a transient, 10 seconds or less incursion and then hitting a supposed ally aircraft, is extreme. The direction of the aircraft was East, not North into Turkey, perhaps Rambo expert fighter pilot, special forces, deep water, astronaut heros like you, are not best suited to be making these decisions.

[chris watton]

Puggit said:

How about 25.5%? http://www.npdata.be/BuG/100/

Thanks for that.

[glazbagun]

cirian75 said:

did Turkey not think to tell their Turkmen if we shoot down a Russian/Syrian jet, do not shoot the ejected pilots ?

Who were the Russians bombing? If it was a Turk-backed rebel group fighting Assad I doubt it would matter even if they were told.

[Puggit]

glazbagun said:

cirian75 said:

did Turkey not think to tell their Turkmen if we shoot down a Russian/Syrian jet, do not shoot the ejected pilots ?

Who were the Russians bombing? If it was a Turk-backed rebel group fighting Assad I doubt it would matter even if they were told.

That's exactly who the Russians were bombing, ethnic Turks, backed by Turkey, fighting Assad. Turkey had already warned Russia not to attack them. Russia continued AND violated Turkish airspace in the process. It is understandable that Turkey took this action (although regrettable within the wider world).

[Munter]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Launching a missile on a transient, 10 seconds or less incursion and then hitting a supposed ally aircraft, is extreme. The direction of the aircraft was East, not North into Turkey, perhaps Rambo expert fighter pilot, special forces, deep water, astronaut heros like you, are not best suited to be making these decisions.

How many seconds is acceptable for a fully armed foreign plane to overfly part of another country, following multiple warnings not to do so?

1?
10?
30?
60?

How on earth is a country supposed to maintain a border if it's ok for some foreign armed forces from an aggressive nation, to invade for an unspecified amount of time.

If the agreement is 0, then it's nice and clear and requires no calculation. You simply do not cross the line. If you do cross the line it's fair game to shoot you down.

If an armed RAF jet on operations decided to overfly part of Russia, after many warnings not to do so, with the potential to accidentally bomb that bit of Russia. I'd expect Russia to try and shoot it out of the sky the very second it crossed the line.

[Jonesy23]

It's not exactly a straight border there. Crossing part of it doesn't take much.

And assuming the same rules of engagement Turkey is apparently claiming are now allowed for their neighbours I expect Greece will take out half the Turkish air force within a week or two. I'm sure Russia will be happy to give them a discount on an air defence system.

[Zod]

chris watton said:

Zod said:

chris watton said:

I had no idea that Brussels, the 'capital' of the EU is 40% Muslim!

The reason you had no idea is that it is not true. The correct figure is 20% (a high figure in itself). The problem is concentration in certain areas. Most of central Brussels is white European. Paris is the same, or in some ways worse; the Muslims are concentrated in vast, run-down, concrete estates in a ring outside the Peripherique.

Where did the 40% figure come from?

Also, do you have any evidence that your 20% is the truth, and if so, how up to date is the data?

I used this thing called Google. 20% was the prevalent figure.

[Lucas Ayde]

One of the Russian pilots rescued (i.e alive) by special forces. No news on what happened to the body of the other:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-349174...

[Esseesse]

Jonesy23 said:

It's not exactly a straight border there. Crossing part of it doesn't take much.

And assuming the same rules of engagement Turkey is apparently claiming are now allowed for their neighbours I expect Greece will take out half the Turkish air force within a week or two. I'm sure Russia will be happy to give them a discount on an air defence system.

Also I believe Turkey have been flying into Syrian air space for a long long time.

[Budflicker]

Esseesse said:

Also I believe Turkey have been flying into Syrian air space for a long long time.

I cant see that going well for them anymore.

[chris watton]

Zod said:

I used this thing called Google. 20% was the prevalent figure.

Yes, I Googled, too.

However, I see only 'official' figures, with little mention of illegals, who are not included in the figures.

[amusingduck]

Munter said:

How many seconds is acceptable for a fully armed foreign plane to overfly part of another country, following multiple warnings not to do so?

1?
10?
30?
60?

How on earth is a country supposed to maintain a border if it's ok for some foreign armed forces from an aggressive nation, to invade for an unspecified amount of time.

If the agreement is 0, then it's nice and clear and requires no calculation. You simply do not cross the line. If you do cross the line it's fair game to shoot you down.

If an armed RAF jet on operations decided to overfly part of Russia, after many warnings not to do so, with the potential to accidentally bomb that bit of Russia. I'd expect Russia to try and shoot it out of the sky the very second it crossed the line.

You simply cannot boil this down into a black and white rule. You've stated that once the line is crossed, its fair game. What then, is crossing the line?

The tip of the wing crossing the border?
Half of the plane?
The entire plane? What happens if 3% of the plane was still beyond the border?


Context matters. And the context for this scenario paints Turkey far worse IMO.

[cirian75]

BBC map shows the jet had left Turkish airspace and was comfortably in Syrian airspace by the time the missile hit

[AngryPartsBloke]

cirian75 said:

BBC map shows the jet had left Turkish airspace and was comfortably in Syrian airspace by the time the missile hit

Well, what do you think a pilot would do when a missile is fired at him?

[amusingduck]

AngryPartsBloke said:

cirian75 said:

BBC map shows the jet had left Turkish airspace and was comfortably in Syrian airspace by the time the missile hit

Well, what do you think a pilot would do when a missile is fired at him?

What exactly are you trying to imply? That he was heading straight into turkey until they fired the missile, at which point he turned around?

I don't see any changes to the pilot's course on the radar image provided by Turkey.

[aeropilot]

cirian75 said:

BBC map shows the jet had left Turkish airspace and was comfortably in Syrian airspace by the time the missile hit

Looks like it was probably BVR as well......slightly naughty if so.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of both sides, the Turks (especially for a NATO member) are looking the least rosey of the two sides in this IMHO.

[Lucas Ayde]

Esseesse said:

Also I believe Turkey have been flying into Syrian air space for a long long time.

Yes, they've been bombing the Kurds (who were probably the most effective force fighting ISIS until the Russians got involved) using the excuse of attacking ISIS (whilst actually facilitating ISIS oil smuggling which provides a large part of the 'Islamic State's funds).

Something tells me that they won't be conducting too many more of their Kurd-bombing sorties over Syria now that the Russians are flying air combat patrols.

[Zod]

Lucas Ayde said:

Yes, they've been bombing the Kurds (who were probably the most effective force fighting ISIS until the Russians got involved) using the excuse of attacking ISIS (whilst actually facilitating ISIS oil smuggling which provides a large part of the 'Islamic State's funds).

Something tells me that they won't be conducting too many more of their Kurd-bombing sorties over Syria now that the Russians are flying air combat patrols.

Yesterday's evidence suggests the Turks have no fear of Russian aircraft.

[aeropilot]

Zod said:

Lucas Ayde said:

Yes, they've been bombing the Kurds (who were probably the most effective force fighting ISIS until the Russians got involved) using the excuse of attacking ISIS (whilst actually facilitating ISIS oil smuggling which provides a large part of the 'Islamic State's funds).

Something tells me that they won't be conducting too many more of their Kurd-bombing sorties over Syria now that the Russians are flying air combat patrols.

Yesterday's evidence suggests the Turks have no fear of Russian aircraft.

If they engaged them BVR, then I'd say otherwise, as you'd do what all other NATO members do, and close to visual and identitfy to escort away from your airspace....
And given that they downed a Syrian AF Mig23 last year with AIM-120, in a similar situation I wonder if they assumed this was a Syrian AF jet again rather than a Russian one....
Or they wanted to engage regardless to protect their 'ally' Turkmen on the ground over the border -again why the BVR engaged?

Lots of unanswered questions still with this situation......