Meanwhile, In Syria

[Art0ir]

Transmitter Man said:

So, please answer my question:

Who, if anyone do you respect in this world to run their country the way you see it?

Phil

From a macro, cold, amoral perspective I don't even think the ruckus is a bad thing really.

The Middle East is a boiling pot of sectarian tribes. The artificial borders drawn by the British and French are just that and remain only enforceable by strong arm dictators.

The whole thing needs redrawn. Unfortunately that rarely happens without bloodshed.

Islam also needs it's own Reformation to pull it out of the dark ages. It was a beacon of science and progressiveness while Christian countries were still burning witches and quartering bread thieves. Then the "West" leapfrogged it and they never caught up.

[Transmitter Man]

When exactly was Islam progressive?

The nearest century will do.

Phil

[AreOut]

medieval times...it wasn't exactly progressive but it was less damaging than inquisition

[Art0ir]

Transmitter Man said:

When exactly was Islam progressive?

The nearest century will do.

Phil

8th to the 13th seems to be the accepted history. At least until the destruction of the House of Wisdom by the Mongols, where Christian philosophers, astronomers and scientists worked alongside Islamic colleagues to preserve and expand upon the work of the Aristotle and the other great Greek intellectuals.

This was a time when the Byzantine empire was persecuting all non Christians including Jews.

[Transmitter Man]

Not too sure about that version of history Art.

There were synagogues in both Aleppo (the oldest in the whole region) as well as Damascus before this time and the Syrian, Iraqi & Lebanese Jews were not persecuted.

Phil

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Transmitter Man said:

So, please answer my question:

Who, if anyone do you respect in this world to run their country the way you see it?

Phil

Are you talking about Syria specifically, or a broader ideological question?

Amid the bombs of Aleppo, all you can hear are the lies

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 19th December 11:19

[Transmitter Man]

For those who are interested in where IS get material to build IED´s;

http://www.conflictarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2016...

BTW, I agree with the poster re former Iraqi miltary (and police who were also dismissed) being the basis of IS. It's got stuff all to do with Israel, Saudi, Father Christmas or any other local party. I could imagine the US putting a shia(Malaki) in the top job and a puppet of Iran from day one knowing it would help start an insurgency in the country - which it did.

Phil

[Transmitter Man]

[quote=QuantumTokoloshi]

Are you talking about Syria specifically, or a broader ideological question?

Amid the bombs of Aleppo, all you can hear are the lies

Any leader in the region.

One must consider that the ME is not the UK and have different rules, values, laws, identity and culture.

I believe one has to have first hand experience of working and living in a country to get a real world handle on what makes their citizens clocks tick and whether overall they get a better role of the dice compared to ourselves.

Phil

[Goaty Bill 2]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Are you talking about Syria specifically, or a broader ideological question?

Amid the bombs of Aleppo, all you can hear are the lies

Hitch-Slap

He may lack some of the roguish charm of his older brother, but he gives away nothing in intelligence, wit and attack dog capabilities.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Transmitter Man said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Are you talking about Syria specifically, or a broader ideological question?

Amid the bombs of Aleppo, all you can hear are the lies

Any leader in the region.

One must consider that the ME is not the UK and have different rules, values, laws, identity and culture.

I believe one has to have first hand experience of working and living in a country to get a real world handle on what makes their citizens clocks tick and whether overall they get a better role of the dice compared to ourselves.

Phil

I agree with you completely, imposing Western values, cultural norms and political systems on countries that do not want or are ready for it, is a recipe for disaster. Libya is an excellent example of how that can go hugely wrong, in a very short period of time. It was no Eden under Gaddafi, but it was stable and relatively prosperous, compared to its neighbours.

Apply that philosophy to Assad and the Syrian situation. The country was no Utopia but it was stable, secular and functioning. Hafez al-Assad was a dictator, placed into power by American intervention, he had blood on his hands, Bashar al-Assad was more Western friendly in his outlook, and, while no ally, he could have been someone the West could have worked with. That is very unlikely now, and has strengthened the Iranian hand, never mind the Russian hand, in the region. Totally counter productive on all counts.

The most galling aspect, is the hypocrisy in evidence in the foreign policy, Syria, nominally democratic, secular, minority rights respected, women rights and participate in all aspects of society. We then have Saudi, theocratic, despotic violently oppressing dissent, non existent minority rights, oppression of females, violent intolerance of religious freedom, exporting Islamic fundamentalists around the globe, providing the bulk of the 9/11 terrorists, but Assad and Syria are the danger.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 19th December 19:41

[Transmitter Man]

Assassination of Russian Ambassador in Turkey must be condemned, but blood begets blood. What happened to Syria will have violent ramifications for years to come.

So many people have been killed in Aleppo is anyone surprised this happened? The greatest person to fear is the one who has nothing left to lose.

Phil

[anonymous-user]

Transmitter Man said:

Assassination of Russian Ambassador in Turkey must be condemned, but blood begets blood. What happened to Syria will have violent ramifications for years to come.

So many people have been killed in Aleppo is anyone surprised this happened? The greatest person to fear is the one who has nothing left to lose.

Phil

Accepting the somewhat obvious statements, it seems Trump may actually kick this into a new gear with his aim to confront Islamic terrorism once and for all.

[AreOut]

Transmitter Man said:

Assassination of Russian Ambassador in Turkey must be condemned, but blood begets blood. What happened to Syria will have violent ramifications for years to come.

So many people have been killed in Aleppo is anyone surprised this happened? The greatest person to fear is the one who has nothing left to lose.

Phil

so you justify 9/11 attacks?!

[Goaty Bill 2]

AreOut said:

so you justify 9/11 attacks?!

Really, one should question what someone has actually said, rather than words they have not used.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Transmitter Man said:

Assassination of Russian Ambassador in Turkey must be condemned, but blood begets blood. What happened to Syria will have violent ramifications for years to come.

So many people have been killed in Aleppo is anyone surprised this happened? The greatest person to fear is the one who has nothing left to lose.

Phil

So by your reasoning, it is excusable to assassinate the UK Ambassador, US Ambassador and French Ambassador for not only the involvement in Syria, but also Libya and Iraq?

Please explain how a Turkish policeman, not Syrian, has this "nothing to left to lose" attitude, I suspect it is more a wannabe Jihadi, looking to enjoy his 72 virgins. The poison of the mind peddled by Saudi clerics.

Do you also excuse the Lee Rigby killers, the 7/7 bombers and the 9/11 terrorists too. Perhaps that "nothing left to lose" attitude also is prevalent in the Brussels and Paris attackers?

Who has the Anti Western viewpoint and who is the true enemy of the "West" ?

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Tuesday 20th December 15:37

[AreOut]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Really, one should question what someone has actually said, rather than words they have not used.

he said blood begets blood, so that makes it OK then?!

[Blaster72]

AreOut said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Really, one should question what someone has actually said, rather than words they have not used.

he said blood begets blood, so that makes it OK then?!

As I see it he was just pointing out that this is a likely outcome not that he was condoning the murder.

It's true and inevitable, I don't see why you're trying to make out that commenter as some sort of terrorist apologist.

[discusdave]

meanwhile in Aleppo ... it's Christmas....

[discusdave]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Transmitter Man said:

Assassination of Russian Ambassador in Turkey must be condemned, but blood begets blood. What happened to Syria will have violent ramifications for years to come.

So many people have been killed in Aleppo is anyone surprised this happened? The greatest person to fear is the one who has nothing left to lose.

Phil

So by your reasoning, it is excusable to assassinate the UK Ambassador, US Ambassador and French Ambassador for not only the involvement in Syria, but also Libya and Iraq?

Please explain how a Turkish policeman, not Syrian, has this "nothing to left to lose" attitude, I suspect it is more a wannabe Jihadi, looking to enjoy his 72 virgins. The poison of the mind peddled by Saudi clerics.

Do you also excuse the Lee Rigby killers, the 7/7 bombers and the 9/11 terrorists too. Perhaps that "nothing left to lose" attitude also is prevalent in the Brussels and Paris attackers?

Who has the Anti Western viewpoint and who is the true enemy of the "West" ?

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Tuesday 20th December 15:37

what QT said is spot on

[Goaty Bill 2]

Blaster72 said:

AreOut said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Really, one should question what someone has actually said, rather than words they have not used.

he said blood begets blood, so that makes it OK then?!

As I see it he was just pointing out that this is a likely outcome not that he was condoning the murder.

It's true and inevitable, I don't see why you're trying to make out that commenter as some sort of terrorist apologist.

That will do for my answer as well.
How you (AreOut) are appearing to take it is not how I would understand what Transmitter Man said.

While I agree with Transmitter Man that what has happened in Syria, and other middle east adventures over the last two decades will invariably lead to further bloodshed in the streets and homes of Europe and very probably the US, I will not shed a tear for the future dead terrorists nor their families, and wish the authorities their very best in getting every last one of them that comes to our collective countries with violence in mind; may they never travel home, other than in a pine box.

The terrorists tell us that they desire their own deaths. I say we should do everything in our power to assist them in achieving that particular goal.


On the other hand, we really should discourage our governments from these little forays into social engineering and regime change in other countries. It's quite clear that they have no understanding of the process, or any idea how to create an effective exit strategy.

We really could do with politicians that were better and more widely read.
Instead of concerning themselves with stories of 'gender unicorns' had they read The Great Game by Hopkins, in the apparent absence of ever having studied any British history, they may well have understood why a prolonged stretch in Afghanistan was not going to end well. Anyone that thought otherwise from day one, is worse than foolish.

Edited by Goaty Bill 2 on Tuesday 20th December 19:39