Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
Cobnapint said:
grumbledoak said:
Has anyone yet come up with a plausible reason why Assad would use chemical weapons against his own people? Given the facts appear to be:
. Assad is popular at home, twice elected, and winning against IS.
. A chemical weapon attack would achieve nothing against IS and it would give the Americans the excuse they want to act.
. Assad knows this.
. Assad is neither dumb nor insane
What's his motivation for giving the US the exact excuse they need to do what they clearly already want to do?
He might be popular in Damascus, but not in some of the outlying areas such as this rebel held town.. Assad is popular at home, twice elected, and winning against IS.
. A chemical weapon attack would achieve nothing against IS and it would give the Americans the excuse they want to act.
. Assad knows this.
. Assad is neither dumb nor insane
What's his motivation for giving the US the exact excuse they need to do what they clearly already want to do?
If you are in a rebel held town, then you are a rebel fighting for democracy, and if you are a rebel fighting for democracy - you are a terrorist. 'Terrorists' in Syria get treated in the same manner that the lucky residents of Aleppo did. That is, getting the living s
t bombed out of you at any cost, with no come back - especially when you have a ruthless sidekick like Putin backing you all the way.He may not be insane, but he made a bad judgement. A new sheriff is in town now, and the new sheriff kicked the garden gate down and took a dump on the lawn.
I don't think they'll be any more CW attacks.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04/exchange-res...
Those are not the actions of a government who doesnt care about the wellbeing of civilians. The fact he is willing to allow rebels to leave and take their small arms with them and is also allowing prisoner swaps tells me that he is doing all he can to reduce casualties to civilians.
If you bothered to look into Syria prior to the US and Saudi Arabia turning it into a terrorists s
thole it was a very good place to live with free education free healthcare free schooling etc. Not the sort of actions that would be expected of a monstrous dictator in my opinion. Someone who doesnt give a s
t about civilian lives in war time isnt going to give much of a dam in peacetime either.frankenstein12 said:
The fact he is willing to allow rebels to leave and take their small arms with them and is also allowing prisoner swaps tells me that he is doing all he can to reduce casualties to civilians.
If you bothered to look into Syria prior to the US and Saudi Arabia turning it into a terrorists sthole it was a very good place to live with free education free healthcare free schooling etc.
Not the sort of actions that would be expected of a monstrous dictator in my opinion. Someone who doesnt give a st about civilian lives in war time isnt going to give much of a dam in peacetime either.
Dross.If you bothered to look into Syria prior to the US and Saudi Arabia turning it into a terrorists s
thole it was a very good place to live with free education free healthcare free schooling etc. Not the sort of actions that would be expected of a monstrous dictator in my opinion. Someone who doesnt give a s
t about civilian lives in war time isnt going to give much of a dam in peacetime either.If he's been nice on a handful of occasions to civilians in certain areas it will have been because foreign observers or such were there to witness half baked surrender deals carried out.
Other than that, since 2012 he's been firing rockets, shelling and dropping bombs onto highly populated neighbourhoods that are out of his control in numerous towns across Syria without a care in the world. Along with deliberate attacks on hospitals. There are hours of footage on YouTube.
And yes, I'm sure Syria was a nice place to live before this all kicked off - if you liked the Assads that is. Not so nice if you were a political prisoner though.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde24/5415/20...
Cobnapint said:
frankenstein12 said:
The fact he is willing to allow rebels to leave and take their small arms with them and is also allowing prisoner swaps tells me that he is doing all he can to reduce casualties to civilians.
If you bothered to look into Syria prior to the US and Saudi Arabia turning it into a terrorists sthole it was a very good place to live with free education free healthcare free schooling etc.
Not the sort of actions that would be expected of a monstrous dictator in my opinion. Someone who doesnt give a st about civilian lives in war time isnt going to give much of a dam in peacetime either.
Dross.If you bothered to look into Syria prior to the US and Saudi Arabia turning it into a terrorists s
thole it was a very good place to live with free education free healthcare free schooling etc. Not the sort of actions that would be expected of a monstrous dictator in my opinion. Someone who doesnt give a s
t about civilian lives in war time isnt going to give much of a dam in peacetime either.If he's been nice on a handful of occasions to civilians in certain areas it will have been because foreign observers or such were there to witness half baked surrender deals carried out.
Other than that, since 2012 he's been firing rockets, shelling and dropping bombs onto highly populated neighbourhoods that are out of his control in numerous towns across Syria without a care in the world. Along with deliberate attacks on hospitals. There are hours of footage on YouTube.
And yes, I'm sure Syria was a nice place to live before this all kicked off - if you liked the Assads that is. Not so nice if you were a political prisoner though.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde24/5415/20...
While he may bomb areas with civilians (and he has admitted doing so) it is in response to shelling into government held civilian areas by the rebels forces who have no compunction about randomly lobbing bombs into safe government controlled areas at which point the Assad regime retaliates and fires on the rebels.
There is also plenty of footage of the rebels siting rockets and launchpads in heavily populated civilian areas near housing complexes etc to try minimise the ability of the Assad regime to retaliate. Assad it seems grew tired of it and started bombing the launchpads anyway to try stop the rebels using civilians as human shields as frankly if he will bomb a civilian area there is little point in trying to use them for cover goes the theory.
Bombing hospitals? Possibly he may have. I really dont know. It is possible he bombed hospitals controlled by the white helmets as they will have been used as bases for the rebels as well or he may have simply bombed hospitals by mistake as barrel bombs are not exactly precise. As far as I recall he denies bombing hospitals but I am not convinced.
frankenstein12 said:
Yet again showing how little you know. He has regularly tried setting up passages for civilians to get out of areas held by rebels however when the civilians try leave the rebels fire at them so the civilians end up trapped in the rebel held cities.
While he may bomb areas with civilians (and he has admitted doing so) it is in response to shelling into government held civilian areas by the rebels forces who have no compunction about randomly lobbing bombs into safe government controlled areas at which point the Assad regime retaliates and fires on the rebels.
There is also plenty of footage of the rebels siting rockets and launchpads in heavily populated civilian areas near housing complexes etc to try minimise the ability of the Assad regime to retaliate. Assad it seems grew tired of it and started bombing the launchpads anyway to try stop the rebels using civilians as human shields as frankly if he will bomb a civilian area there is little point in trying to use them for cover goes the theory.
Bombing hospitals? Possibly he may have. I really dont know. It is possible he bombed hospitals controlled by the white helmets as they will have been used as bases for the rebels as well or he may have simply bombed hospitals by mistake as barrel bombs are not exactly precise. As far as I recall he denies bombing hospitals but I am not convinced.
The barrel bomb is highly accurate, you just hover directly above the target and let gravity do the rest. Far more accurate than artillery or free fall ordnance released from a fast jet. In fact they are so effective, the civilian friendly regime AF have been dropping one, then waiting for rescuers to arrive before returning to drop another.While he may bomb areas with civilians (and he has admitted doing so) it is in response to shelling into government held civilian areas by the rebels forces who have no compunction about randomly lobbing bombs into safe government controlled areas at which point the Assad regime retaliates and fires on the rebels.
There is also plenty of footage of the rebels siting rockets and launchpads in heavily populated civilian areas near housing complexes etc to try minimise the ability of the Assad regime to retaliate. Assad it seems grew tired of it and started bombing the launchpads anyway to try stop the rebels using civilians as human shields as frankly if he will bomb a civilian area there is little point in trying to use them for cover goes the theory.
Bombing hospitals? Possibly he may have. I really dont know. It is possible he bombed hospitals controlled by the white helmets as they will have been used as bases for the rebels as well or he may have simply bombed hospitals by mistake as barrel bombs are not exactly precise. As far as I recall he denies bombing hospitals but I am not convinced.
Some lucky residents have even received a third.
Any other good points you wish to announce, feel free.
nyxster said:
Here's the problem; Assad is neither a nutter or a liar.
Calling him a nutter would suggest he's mentally ill when clearly he is a highly educated man who knows exactly what he is doing. From his own words he considers his victims terrorists and any innocents killed are to be blamed on the terrorists since if they weren't fighting he wouldn't need to bomb them. It's exactly the same type of blame-shifting Putin has excelled at for years - he feels totally justified in his actions therefore his actions to be reasonable. Of course to other's that makes him a sociopath, but he is not lying (in his opinion) as he is blaming others for the consequences of his actions rather than denying them. The second aspect of assymetric warfare is deniability - his underlings could well be using chemical weapons and he simply avoids having any hand in it - the same. way Putin denied any involvement in the downing of the Malaysian jets - have no direct knowledge then you can truthfully speculate all sorts of explanations.
NK's leader is clearly a nutter - Assad is merely a ruthless dictator who places no value on human life, Those from his inner circle said neither he nor his wife show any kind of compassion and are utterly self-absorbed.
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist - if the remainers formed a militia and started a civil war, the brexiters would no doubt back a government who quashed them on the grounds they were 'terrorists', and collatoral damage would be the fault of said terrorists for starting the trouble.
The problem for Assad is that there are internationally agreed conventions. on things like chemical weapons, targeting of civillians, torture and so on - even if he feels he has done nothing wrong then the international community are free to judge otherwise.
The irony of Russia complaining that the US strike was illegal is that Russia repeatedly carried out illegal military actions in Georgia, Ukraine so has no moral card to play against the US taking unilateral action. In any case there is nothing they can do - just as they veto every action against Syria - France and the UK would veto every actuion against the US ensuring the UN is basically useless in any situation where one if the permenant members has a vested interest or is involved in a contratemps.
We can argue this until the cows come home but this will end as Chechyna did - Russia will continue to batter IS/AQ/Rebels into submission, at the end of it Assad will be the sacrificial lamb to placate the US and be exiled to Russia and replaced with a puppet regime willing to do Putin's bidding. Russia will continue to take apart the islamic groups, since ultimately one of the back room deals nobody talks about is how cosy Putin is with Israel and Russia is ultimately helping Israel remove syrian support for hezbollah and lebanon. Having Russia block the arms flow from Iran to Palestine via lebanon protects Israel, and despite the rhetoric Russia and the US are in a behind the scenes joint-enterprise to protect Israel from Iran. While all the focus was on the US missile strike no media attention was given at all to Israel carrying out airstrikes in palmyra against iran sponsored hezbollah, who are supposedly on Russia's side. Russia's principal involvement was nothing to do with protecting Assad - the cconcern was that if IS & friends got control over Syria they'd have a direct front over the golan into Israel. By putting Assad under the thumb they also stop him being Iran's proxy into Lebanon. Since Assad is ultimately secular, and Putin diesnt guve a st about things like human rights he's seen as a useful idiot to keep a lid on either side of the islam coin spreading from Saudi (via IS) or Iran (via hezbollah) onto Israel's doorstep.
tl;dr - you can be the best nutter/liar detector in the world but if you are basing your understanding of the underlying drivers of the situation based on press reports, interviews etc then you are going to come to the wrong conclusions - people like Putin, Assad and others don't stay in power by making binary decisions - like avery long game of chess global diplomacy is basec on wide varieties of interests and objectives that are rarely apparant to those outside the principal groups involved. Assad is a very effecttive manipulator who says mostly what he thinks has the best chance of casting doubt or changing public opinion, and he's got Putin's hand stuck right up his arse telling him what to say/do - and without doubt Putin is one of the most cunning and wily political operators on the planet.
Nyx.Calling him a nutter would suggest he's mentally ill when clearly he is a highly educated man who knows exactly what he is doing. From his own words he considers his victims terrorists and any innocents killed are to be blamed on the terrorists since if they weren't fighting he wouldn't need to bomb them. It's exactly the same type of blame-shifting Putin has excelled at for years - he feels totally justified in his actions therefore his actions to be reasonable. Of course to other's that makes him a sociopath, but he is not lying (in his opinion) as he is blaming others for the consequences of his actions rather than denying them. The second aspect of assymetric warfare is deniability - his underlings could well be using chemical weapons and he simply avoids having any hand in it - the same. way Putin denied any involvement in the downing of the Malaysian jets - have no direct knowledge then you can truthfully speculate all sorts of explanations.
NK's leader is clearly a nutter - Assad is merely a ruthless dictator who places no value on human life, Those from his inner circle said neither he nor his wife show any kind of compassion and are utterly self-absorbed.
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist - if the remainers formed a militia and started a civil war, the brexiters would no doubt back a government who quashed them on the grounds they were 'terrorists', and collatoral damage would be the fault of said terrorists for starting the trouble.
The problem for Assad is that there are internationally agreed conventions. on things like chemical weapons, targeting of civillians, torture and so on - even if he feels he has done nothing wrong then the international community are free to judge otherwise.
The irony of Russia complaining that the US strike was illegal is that Russia repeatedly carried out illegal military actions in Georgia, Ukraine so has no moral card to play against the US taking unilateral action. In any case there is nothing they can do - just as they veto every action against Syria - France and the UK would veto every actuion against the US ensuring the UN is basically useless in any situation where one if the permenant members has a vested interest or is involved in a contratemps.
We can argue this until the cows come home but this will end as Chechyna did - Russia will continue to batter IS/AQ/Rebels into submission, at the end of it Assad will be the sacrificial lamb to placate the US and be exiled to Russia and replaced with a puppet regime willing to do Putin's bidding. Russia will continue to take apart the islamic groups, since ultimately one of the back room deals nobody talks about is how cosy Putin is with Israel and Russia is ultimately helping Israel remove syrian support for hezbollah and lebanon. Having Russia block the arms flow from Iran to Palestine via lebanon protects Israel, and despite the rhetoric Russia and the US are in a behind the scenes joint-enterprise to protect Israel from Iran. While all the focus was on the US missile strike no media attention was given at all to Israel carrying out airstrikes in palmyra against iran sponsored hezbollah, who are supposedly on Russia's side. Russia's principal involvement was nothing to do with protecting Assad - the cconcern was that if IS & friends got control over Syria they'd have a direct front over the golan into Israel. By putting Assad under the thumb they also stop him being Iran's proxy into Lebanon. Since Assad is ultimately secular, and Putin diesnt guve a s
t about things like human rights he's seen as a useful idiot to keep a lid on either side of the islam coin spreading from Saudi (via IS) or Iran (via hezbollah) onto Israel's doorstep.tl;dr - you can be the best nutter/liar detector in the world but if you are basing your understanding of the underlying drivers of the situation based on press reports, interviews etc then you are going to come to the wrong conclusions - people like Putin, Assad and others don't stay in power by making binary decisions - like avery long game of chess global diplomacy is basec on wide varieties of interests and objectives that are rarely apparant to those outside the principal groups involved. Assad is a very effecttive manipulator who says mostly what he thinks has the best chance of casting doubt or changing public opinion, and he's got Putin's hand stuck right up his arse telling him what to say/do - and without doubt Putin is one of the most cunning and wily political operators on the planet.
A most interesting post.
Do you consider there 'any' truth in Sunni Arab villagers in the south being forcefully relocated and Shia being moved in so as to make it easier to move arms through Syria destined for Hezbollah in Lebanon?
Phil
BlackLabel said:
Peter Oborne's latest piece.
'I've rarely felt more fearful for the future': PETER OBORNE, the first journalist to visit the Syrian village hit by Trump's missiles, says peace has been set back years in a war where truth and logic have gone to hell
...countered by this former regime officers statement reproduced in the Telegraph;'I've rarely felt more fearful for the future': PETER OBORNE, the first journalist to visit the Syrian village hit by Trump's missiles, says peace has been set back years in a war where truth and logic have gone to hell
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/14/bashar-...
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
Nyx.
A most interesting post.
Do you consider there 'any' truth in Sunni Arab villagers in the south being forcefully relocated and Shia being moved in so as to make it easier to move arms through Syria destined for Hezbollah in Lebanon?
Phil
Hezbollah needs heavy weapons, artillery, tanks and more importantly advanced air defence. They can't move that kind of kit with potential sunni informants giving intel via saudi/jordan intelligence to the US who then pass it on to the IDF to interdict, So yes, i have no doubt they are likely 'securitising' sympathetic shia majorities in strategic territories, of course with so much displacement from various factional cleanising its impossible to prove who is behind what, and as iraq proved the sunni/shia go at it the first chance they get.A most interesting post.
Do you consider there 'any' truth in Sunni Arab villagers in the south being forcefully relocated and Shia being moved in so as to make it easier to move arms through Syria destined for Hezbollah in Lebanon?
Phil
the whole thing is a proxy clusterf
k, which ironically is why you need secular hardliners such as assad and saddam hussein who treat everyone equally badly to maintain order. nyxster said:
[
the whole thing is a proxy clusterfk, which ironically is why you need secular hardliners such as assad and saddam hussein who treat everyone equally badly to maintain order.
I liked this linkthe whole thing is a proxy clusterf
k, which ironically is why you need secular hardliners such as assad and saddam hussein who treat everyone equally badly to maintain order. https://www.returnofkings.com/119115/6-questions-t...
SFW
So there's now been an attack on a civilian convoy killing 120 plus civilians with at least 60 or so being children.
The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
frankenstein12 said:
So there's now been an attack on a civilian convoy killing 120 plus civilians with at least 60 or so being children.
The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
Hush now, it was probably the "bad" Islamic fundementalist rebels, not the "good" Islamic fundamentalist rebels whom we support and who can do no wrong.The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
Distinct lack of outrage in the coverage of this atrocity from mainstream media. The reports don't exactly make it crystal clear (fundamentalist suicide attack primarily on kids and civilians who were under seige by the rebels and waiting to move to a government area) what happened either, they sort of make out that it was just one of those things that happen in war.
If it could somehow have been pinned on Assad/Russia there would be wall to wall 'frothing at the mouth' news pieces and the missiles and bombers would be on the way... Utter hypocrisy.
Cobnapint said:
The barrel bomb is highly accurate, you just hover directly above the target and let gravity do the rest. Far more accurate than artillery or free fall ordnance released from a fast jet. In fact they are so effective, the civilian friendly regime AF have been dropping one, then waiting for rescuers to arrive before returning to drop another.
Some lucky residents have even received a third.
Any other good points you wish to announce, feel free.
They probably picked up that tactic from the Americans - the 'Double Tap' is standard operational procedure (really shown in horrifying fashion on the 'collateral murder' video but the yanks have been doing it for years with their drone strikes too).Some lucky residents have even received a third.
Any other good points you wish to announce, feel free.
Lucas Ayde said:
frankenstein12 said:
So there's now been an attack on a civilian convoy killing 120 plus civilians with at least 60 or so being children.
The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
Hush now, it was probably the "bad" Islamic fundementalist rebels, not the "good" Islamic fundamentalist rebels whom we support and who can do no wrong.The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
Distinct lack of outrage in the coverage of this atrocity from mainstream media. The reports don't exactly make it crystal clear (fundamentalist suicide attack primarily on kids and civilians who were under seige by the rebels and waiting to move to a government area) what happened either, they sort of make out that it was just one of those things that happen in war.
If it could somehow have been pinned on Assad/Russia there would be wall to wall 'frothing at the mouth' news pieces and the missiles and bombers would be on the way... Utter hypocrisy.
It makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
So there's now been an attack on a civilian convoy killing 120 plus civilians with at least 60 or so being children.
The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
The interesting thing being that I was under the impression a deal had been worked out with the Rebels but that after it was all agreed midway through the swap the Rebels decided to disagree.
Apparently they wanted more rebels allowed to leave as part of the convoy which caused the convoy to get stuck.
Then rather coincidentally a car bomb attack was launched. Maybe it was a fluke maybe not.
The main "friendly" rebels claim it was not them. I find that hard to believe.
This just goes to show what the so called rebels in Syria think of murdering civilians. Yet we are supposed to believe they would never fake a chemical weapons attack to make Assad look bad.
Leroy902 said:
Couldn't put it better myself. When things like this happen, it's the 'media' and questions around who owns/controls them that I question?...
It makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syria-suicide-...It makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
Hitchen's on Boris Johnson's response to the "Syrian" gas attack.
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/
Legend83 said:
+1The BBC ran story after story on the gas attacks. Yet there are no Western journalists in Syria to verify it's news stories. How can an impartial news organisation run unverified news?
There needs to be more questioning and balanced reporting. The whole thing is a mess and it worries me when Western media/politicians simple paint it as good v one evil.
"A former British ambassador to Syria who appeared on the BBC to defend the Assad regime had already become a director of a lobby group run by the dictator’s father in law."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/22/reveale...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/22/reveale...
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