Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
Globs said:
BTW do you know any Iranians?
I do. They can come and go as they please, their country is stable, prosperous and cheap to live in, women are free to drive and to dress how they like, shops and markets are very similar to our own with similar prices for cars and bikes, yet here you are telling me how it's a brutal regime and implying that the people will be better off if we start to bomb or invade them.
I expect you see it as a desert too, full of sand, but it has rolling green hills, 6' banks of snow in the higher regions and in places is rather like France or Portugal in climate and countryside.
It's well documented that Saudi Arabia and allies sponsor ISIS and Al Qaeda, but they are never criticised for that (unless like Qatar - they fall out of favour), but Syria and Iran? Come on.
We are constantly told they sponsor terrorism but if you research that, you come up with nothing. Nada. Then look at what they've both been doing for the past 5 years: Fighting ISIS. The same ISIS sponsored by us and our allies.
Yet here you are telling is it's Syria and Iran who are the bad guys funding terror? I have news for you: That's a big fat lie.
_______________________________________________________I do. They can come and go as they please, their country is stable, prosperous and cheap to live in, women are free to drive and to dress how they like, shops and markets are very similar to our own with similar prices for cars and bikes, yet here you are telling me how it's a brutal regime and implying that the people will be better off if we start to bomb or invade them.
I expect you see it as a desert too, full of sand, but it has rolling green hills, 6' banks of snow in the higher regions and in places is rather like France or Portugal in climate and countryside.
It's well documented that Saudi Arabia and allies sponsor ISIS and Al Qaeda, but they are never criticised for that (unless like Qatar - they fall out of favour), but Syria and Iran? Come on.
We are constantly told they sponsor terrorism but if you research that, you come up with nothing. Nada. Then look at what they've both been doing for the past 5 years: Fighting ISIS. The same ISIS sponsored by us and our allies.
Yet here you are telling is it's Syria and Iran who are the bad guys funding terror? I have news for you: That's a big fat lie.
Globs,
I don't just know people from Iran - family fled Tehran on the last UK bound plane in 79 revolution.
Remember the Iranian Embassy siege in Kensington?
Who started the 1999 student revolution in Iran?
Are you going to suggest Halliburton or Bibi keeps (aside from their local mafia) Hezbollah in business if not Iran (and propping up Assad as they need that corridor to Lebanon)?
Your generalizations conveniently forget historically documented events.
Phil
Globs said:
What have you got against Hezbollah and Hamas?
Oh I know - Israel hates them
Israeli's own and run our media.
You've read that media.
Israel owns the Daily Mail which I read? Israel owns the BBC which I watch?Oh I know - Israel hates them
Israeli's own and run our media.
You've read that media.
I would look it up because the last time I looked neither was owned by Israel but if you get your info from some cranky website believe what you want if it makes you happy.
Raygun said:
frankenstein12 said:
That entirely misses the point and shows what is wrong with Western foreign policy. It is not up to us how the middle eastern people run their countries. If they wish to have one despotic dictator or nutjob after another then thats their call.
It has never worked out well when western countries have tried to help provide "democracy" to other countries of the world and usually all we do is create ever more enemies wanting to do us harm.
Under Assad and Hussein both their countries were calm and stable. Yes they were/are dictators however the people of their countries felt and generally were safe. Everywhere else in the middle east where the west has decided we had some moral obligation to intervene and "free" the people and give them democracy they have been left living a nightmare of terrorists ruining their countries.
Under Assad Syria was a mostly peaceful country which was a bit like the UAE with westernised lifestyle. Under any of those waiting in the wings to take over it will turn into a full blown nightmare for those who live there.
I grew up in South Africa. People around the world called apartheid era whites racists and heartless etc for the way blacks were treated and yes apartheid was wrong and unfairin so many ways. The interesting thing is like virtually every other country in Africa or the world where foreign governments decided to step in and force "regime" change (in SA's case via heavy sanctions etc) it has turned the country into a spiralling nightmare.
Political corruption is out of control. SOcial welfare programmes are falling apart. Large proportions of the police are deeply corrupt. Rape and murder has spiralled completely out of control to the point where the poorest are suffering as they cannot be sure they wont get raped or murdered on their way back to their homes.
And do you know who has suffered the brunt of the nightmare? The people the western world were claiming they were giving freedom to.The Poorest of society. Go to South Africa now and speak to a lot of black people who grew up under apartheid and they will tell you they somewhat wish they were still living under apartheid as they were safer.
There was less corruption. There were less murders. There were more jobs so they could buy food and live.
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you dont.
Unfortunately as soon as you start locking up people like Nelson Mandela and killing people like Steve Biko in custody and have people like Terre'Blanche going around with his lynching mob you don't have a leg to stand on really do you? Whether it turns into a corrupted sIt has never worked out well when western countries have tried to help provide "democracy" to other countries of the world and usually all we do is create ever more enemies wanting to do us harm.
Under Assad and Hussein both their countries were calm and stable. Yes they were/are dictators however the people of their countries felt and generally were safe. Everywhere else in the middle east where the west has decided we had some moral obligation to intervene and "free" the people and give them democracy they have been left living a nightmare of terrorists ruining their countries.
Under Assad Syria was a mostly peaceful country which was a bit like the UAE with westernised lifestyle. Under any of those waiting in the wings to take over it will turn into a full blown nightmare for those who live there.
I grew up in South Africa. People around the world called apartheid era whites racists and heartless etc for the way blacks were treated and yes apartheid was wrong and unfairin so many ways. The interesting thing is like virtually every other country in Africa or the world where foreign governments decided to step in and force "regime" change (in SA's case via heavy sanctions etc) it has turned the country into a spiralling nightmare.
Political corruption is out of control. SOcial welfare programmes are falling apart. Large proportions of the police are deeply corrupt. Rape and murder has spiralled completely out of control to the point where the poorest are suffering as they cannot be sure they wont get raped or murdered on their way back to their homes.
And do you know who has suffered the brunt of the nightmare? The people the western world were claiming they were giving freedom to.The Poorest of society. Go to South Africa now and speak to a lot of black people who grew up under apartheid and they will tell you they somewhat wish they were still living under apartheid as they were safer.
There was less corruption. There were less murders. There were more jobs so they could buy food and live.
Sometimes the devil you know is better than the one you dont.
t hole, it's theirs to do what they want, treating the natives a bit better in the first place it might of turned out a whole lot better.If Iran and Syria just run their own countries rather than stirring s
t by sponsoring terrorist groups they would've been left alone but if they keep taking the piss they will get punished.Just because western societies and their governments have their own moral and social beliefs it is not there place to force those on other countries.
frankenstein12 said:
As has been said you clearly fail to understand or recognise the point of my post. Who are the west to dictate how others live their lives? Who are the west to force regime change in a country where people are living mostly happy and safe lives?
Just because western societies and their governments have their own moral and social beliefs it is not there place to force those on other countries.
As I said to the geezer above, if Iran and Syria had kept their nose clean rather than taking hostages of the most powerful nation on earth and bank rolling terrorist outfits I dare say they would be left alone even though they hang gays from cranes and have government backed holocaust denial conventions.Just because western societies and their governments have their own moral and social beliefs it is not there place to force those on other countries.
Globs said:
You either didn't bother reading frankenstein12's post or you didn't understand it.
I understand the allure of that grand righteousness, but look at what is good for the people of those countries:
People in the Ukraine had far better lives before the illegal western coup.
People in the Crimea are having a much better time under the Russian Federation that they would under the new Ukraine regime.
People in Iraq were far better off under Saddam
People in Libya were far better off under Gaddafi
People in Syria were far better off before we armed a bunch of terrorists and mercenaries and got them to invade.
Parroting the propagandist crap is great, but think about what it means for a family to have security, functional water and sewage, trains, schools, hospitals and the ability to walk around without being blown to pieces by a US drone or Israeli flechette bomb.
Millions of people are dead, injured or in misery because people like you emote loaded words like 'brutal dictator', 'regime' and all the other pschobabble about equal rights or democracy, a system upheld by us and the US but rarely followed and worse - some of our best friends in Saudi and Israel are cruel totalitarian dictatorships or apartheid supremacist states.
Hypocrisy may be very trendy but it's killing an awful lot of people.
BTW do you know any Iranians?
I do. They can come and go as they please, their country is stable, prosperous and cheap to live in, women are free to drive and to dress how they like, shops and markets are very similar to our own with similar prices for cars and bikes, yet here you are telling me how it's a brutal regime and implying that the people will be better off if we start to bomb or invade them.
I expect you see it as a desert too, full of sand, but it has rolling green hills, 6' banks of snow in the higher regions and in places is rather like France or Portugal in climate and countryside.
It's well documented that Saudi Arabia and allies sponsor ISIS and Al Qaeda, but they are never criticised for that (unless like Qatar - they fall out of favour), but Syria and Iran? Come on.
We are constantly told they sponsor terrorism but if you research that, you come up with nothing. Nada. Then look at what they've both been doing for the past 5 years: Fighting ISIS. The same ISIS sponsored by us and our allies.
Yet here you are telling is it's Syria and Iran who are the bad guys funding terror? I have news for you: That's a big fat lie.
I understand the allure of that grand righteousness, but look at what is good for the people of those countries:
People in the Ukraine had far better lives before the illegal western coup.
People in the Crimea are having a much better time under the Russian Federation that they would under the new Ukraine regime.
People in Iraq were far better off under Saddam
People in Libya were far better off under Gaddafi
People in Syria were far better off before we armed a bunch of terrorists and mercenaries and got them to invade.
Parroting the propagandist crap is great, but think about what it means for a family to have security, functional water and sewage, trains, schools, hospitals and the ability to walk around without being blown to pieces by a US drone or Israeli flechette bomb.
Millions of people are dead, injured or in misery because people like you emote loaded words like 'brutal dictator', 'regime' and all the other pschobabble about equal rights or democracy, a system upheld by us and the US but rarely followed and worse - some of our best friends in Saudi and Israel are cruel totalitarian dictatorships or apartheid supremacist states.
Hypocrisy may be very trendy but it's killing an awful lot of people.
BTW do you know any Iranians?
I do. They can come and go as they please, their country is stable, prosperous and cheap to live in, women are free to drive and to dress how they like, shops and markets are very similar to our own with similar prices for cars and bikes, yet here you are telling me how it's a brutal regime and implying that the people will be better off if we start to bomb or invade them.
I expect you see it as a desert too, full of sand, but it has rolling green hills, 6' banks of snow in the higher regions and in places is rather like France or Portugal in climate and countryside.
It's well documented that Saudi Arabia and allies sponsor ISIS and Al Qaeda, but they are never criticised for that (unless like Qatar - they fall out of favour), but Syria and Iran? Come on.
We are constantly told they sponsor terrorism but if you research that, you come up with nothing. Nada. Then look at what they've both been doing for the past 5 years: Fighting ISIS. The same ISIS sponsored by us and our allies.
Yet here you are telling is it's Syria and Iran who are the bad guys funding terror? I have news for you: That's a big fat lie.
Raygun said:
As I said to the geezer above, if Iran and Syria had kept their nose clean rather than taking hostages of the most powerful nation on earth and bank rolling terrorist outfits I dare say they would be left alone even though they (Israeli propaganda deleted)
Your lack of understanding about how the world works is breathtaking. I'm mystified how you have achieved that.Can you name a single country that the US has left alone? Just one?
Art0ir said:
Them pesky jews I tells ya.
Before anyone heads off into an antisemitic rant against jews it is worth remembering that most orthodox jews will have nothing to do with Israel because their religion: Judaism, forbids it.Judaism's core is the covenant (or contract) with God on Mt Sinai which included the Ten Commandments which were stored in The Ark of The Covenant, as made popular by the Indiana Jones film.
Thus an adherence to Judaism (being a jew) involves not killing people, not coverting their neighbours land and living a good, blameless life like many jews today.
Israel follows Judaism about as closely as ISIS follows Islam: I.e. not at all, in any respect. Israel is based on the Talmud, not judaism, and it's debatable that any real jews live there because if they did, they would be defying the judaic covenant and would hardly qualify as being jewish.
Orthodox jews are in the main a peaceful, God fearing people who follow judaism and should not be confused with people who claim to be jews but then proceed to break every single part of Judaic Law. Torah means Law, in fact, Judaic Law as handed to Moses.
Interestingly the Covenant was never repealed by God, so anyone who steals land in Israel is automatically banned from that area by their own religion: that's just the way the law works.
There are numerous examples of jews protesting Israel, in fact I knew a nice of jewish chap (he's passed away now sadly) in Chelsea who was totally disgusted with Israel and it's actions, and he wasn't orthodox either. So lets not confuse criticism of Israel - technically an anti-judaic entity - with an anti semitic rant against a whole people.
Here are thousands of jews saying exactly what I have sumarized above in a huge banner they made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73coJsUJ_LY
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Tens-of-thousands-of...
http://www.truetorahjews.org/
Edited by Globs on Monday 3rd July 10:38
Globs said:
Before anyone heads off into an antisemitic rant against jews it is worth remembering that most orthodox jews will have nothing to do with Israel because their religion: Judaism, forbids it.
Judaism's core is the covenant (or contract) with God on Mt Sinai which included the Ten Commandments which were stored in The Ark of The Covenant, as made popular by the Indiana Jones film.
Thus an adherence to Judaism (being a jew) involves not killing people, not coverting their neighbours land and living a good, blameless life like many jews today.
Israel follows Judaism about as closely as ISIS follows Islam: I.e. not at all, in any respect. Israel is based on the Talmud, not judaism, and it's debatable that any real jews live there because if they did, they would be defying the judaic covenant and would hardly qualify as being jewish.
Orthodox jews are in the main a peaceful, God fearing people who follow judaism and should not be confused with people who claim to be jews but then proceed to break every single part of Judaic Law. Torah means Law, in fact, Judaic Law as handed to Moses.
Interestingly the Covenant was never repealed by God, so anyone who steals land in Israel is automatically banned from that area by their own religion: that's just the way the law works.
There are numerous examples of jews protesting Israel, in fact I knew a nice of jewish chap (he's passed away now sadly) in Chelsea who was totally disgusted with Israel and it's actions, and he wasn't orthodox either. So lets not confuse criticism of Israel - technically an anti-judaic entity - with an anti semitic rant against a whole people.
Here are thousands of jews saying exactly what I have sumarized above in a huge banner they made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73coJsUJ_LY
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Tens-of-thousands-of...
http://www.truetorahjews.org/
You might be interested in Max Blumenthal's work. Judaism's core is the covenant (or contract) with God on Mt Sinai which included the Ten Commandments which were stored in The Ark of The Covenant, as made popular by the Indiana Jones film.
Thus an adherence to Judaism (being a jew) involves not killing people, not coverting their neighbours land and living a good, blameless life like many jews today.
Israel follows Judaism about as closely as ISIS follows Islam: I.e. not at all, in any respect. Israel is based on the Talmud, not judaism, and it's debatable that any real jews live there because if they did, they would be defying the judaic covenant and would hardly qualify as being jewish.
Orthodox jews are in the main a peaceful, God fearing people who follow judaism and should not be confused with people who claim to be jews but then proceed to break every single part of Judaic Law. Torah means Law, in fact, Judaic Law as handed to Moses.
Interestingly the Covenant was never repealed by God, so anyone who steals land in Israel is automatically banned from that area by their own religion: that's just the way the law works.
There are numerous examples of jews protesting Israel, in fact I knew a nice of jewish chap (he's passed away now sadly) in Chelsea who was totally disgusted with Israel and it's actions, and he wasn't orthodox either. So lets not confuse criticism of Israel - technically an anti-judaic entity - with an anti semitic rant against a whole people.
Here are thousands of jews saying exactly what I have sumarized above in a huge banner they made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73coJsUJ_LY
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Tens-of-thousands-of...
http://www.truetorahjews.org/
Edited by Globs on Monday 3rd July 10:38
Globs said:
Art0ir said:
Them pesky jews I tells ya.
Before anyone heads off into an antisemitic rant against jews it is worth remembering that most orthodox jews will have nothing to do with Israel because their religion: Judaism, forbids it.Judaism's core is the covenant (or contract) with God on Mt Sinai which included the Ten Commandments which were stored in The Ark of The Covenant, as made popular by the Indiana Jones film.
Thus an adherence to Judaism (being a jew) involves not killing people, not coverting their neighbours land and living a good, blameless life like many jews today.
Israel follows Judaism about as closely as ISIS follows Islam: I.e. not at all, in any respect. Israel is based on the Talmud, not judaism, and it's debatable that any real jews live there because if they did, they would be defying the judaic covenant and would hardly qualify as being jewish.
Orthodox jews are in the main a peaceful, God fearing people who follow judaism and should not be confused with people who claim to be jews but then proceed to break every single part of Judaic Law. Torah means Law, in fact, Judaic Law as handed to Moses.
Interestingly the Covenant was never repealed by God, so anyone who steals land in Israel is automatically banned from that area by their own religion: that's just the way the law works.
There are numerous examples of jews protesting Israel, in fact I knew a nice of jewish chap (he's passed away now sadly) in Chelsea who was totally disgusted with Israel and it's actions, and he wasn't orthodox either. So lets not confuse criticism of Israel - technically an anti-judaic entity - with an anti semitic rant against a whole people.
Here are thousands of jews saying exactly what I have sumarized above in a huge banner they made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73coJsUJ_LY
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Tens-of-thousands-of...
http://www.truetorahjews.org/
Edited by Globs on Monday 3rd July 10:38
Globs said:
BTW do you know any Iranians?
I do. They can come and go as they please, their country is stable, prosperous and cheap to live in, women are free to drive and to dress how they like, shops and markets are very similar to our own with similar prices for cars and bikes, yet here you are telling me how it's a brutal regime and implying that the people will be better off if we start to bomb or invade them.
I’m with you, but it’s not really true is it?I do. They can come and go as they please, their country is stable, prosperous and cheap to live in, women are free to drive and to dress how they like, shops and markets are very similar to our own with similar prices for cars and bikes, yet here you are telling me how it's a brutal regime and implying that the people will be better off if we start to bomb or invade them.
Women need their dad/husbands permission to travel, they must keep their hair covered, and cars are very expensive for crap local made “French” stuff.
Prices are comparable to “the west” but earnings are a lot lower.
[quote=Globs]
Before anyone heads off into an antisemitic rant against jews it is worth remembering that most orthodox jews will have nothing to do with Israel because their religion: Judaism, forbids it.
Globs,
That's just outrightly incorrect.
It is a small minority of orthodox Jews.
You'll see them, as I have among the pro-Pal supporters at any demo's outside the Israeli Embassy in Kensington.
By the way some more comments about Israel's that you disagree with recently posted in JPost;
Myths and misconceptions about Israel and Syrian rebels on the Golan
JPost
July 6, 2017
In April 2017 news media in Israel and abroad was abuzz with a story that Islamic State affiliates in Syria near the southern Golan “apologized” to Israel after a clash in November 2016.
“I think this claim they apologized to Israel is nonsense,” says researcher Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi. “It’s a garbling of what took place.” The garbling wasn’t helped by former Israeli defense Minister Moshe Yaalon who had sparked the story in April by characterizing it as an apology.
Al-Tamimi, a researcher at the Rubin Center for Research in International Affairs at IDC Herzliya and a Fellow at Middle East Forum, has written a new report titled ‘Israel’s relations with the Syrian rebels: An assessment,’ that clarifies many details regarding recent incidents along Israel’s Golan border and debunks some myths that have grown up.
The ISIS incident is one of these. In November 2016 a unit of the Army of Khalid bin al-Walid, which is affiliated with ISIS, clashed with Israel.
“It was a small unit responded to a perceived infringement of by Israel onto Jaish Khaled [ISIS]’s territory. This doesn’t mean ISIS apologized. They had this clash and Israel took out the unit in an airstrike and I heard claims they [the local ISIS leadership] were angry about the incident, they felt they had risked triggering too much of an Israeli response,” al-Tamimi said in an interview.
He says that the ISIS affiliate is engaged in a war with other Syrian rebels and “cannot afford to fight on another front against a power with vastly superior military assets.”
Israel also has no interest in sparking a war on the Golan because destroying ISIS on the Golan would require invading Syrian territory. “a politically unviable option,” al-Tamimi writes in his new report.
The ISIS controversy is like many other stories of pragmatism and power politics. Since Syrians began fighting the Bashar Assad regime in 2011 a multiplicity of rebel groups have become part of the kaleidoscope on the Golan border. That means rocket and mortar fire often spillover, as they did in late June, and Israel responds. It means wounded come to the border and Israel must find a way to maintain relations with who is on the other side.
Al-Tamimi says that besides the Syrian regime and its allies, Israel faces four types of Syrian groups on the Golan. First are those that come under the Southern Front of the Free Syrian Army rebels.
(Quantum call these moderate Islamists)
“These are vetted groups that get support from the Operations Room in Amman in Jordan. It’s backed by Jordan, the Gulf States and the West, including the United States.”
The second group are local rebels who are independent of the Southern Front but are non-Islamist. “I profiled the Fursan al-Jawlan, the ‘Knights of the Golan’, it’s independent.”
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists)
The Knights of the Golan group is located in the pastoral village of Jubatha al-Khashab which is a few kilometers from Israeli route 98 and the Druze village of Buq’ata. Al-Tamimi’s article quotes a source as saying the group has 340 members. This is symbolic of the reality of the Syrian civil war. Most politics is local.
As much as outsiders like to see large blots of ISIS or Syrian rebels on a map, many villages have their own politics and own groups that have affiliated with one side or another, but who still operate only on a local level. Relations with each group and keeping the border area quiet, which is Israel’s goal and the goal of local civilians, means acknowledging this localized pragmatism.
The third force along the Golan is that of the Islamist groups such as Ahrar al-Sham, and and Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which used to be known as the Nusra Front and was originally Al Qaeda in Syria.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - they are anything but moderate)
Al-Tamimi notes that Nusra “gets the most polemical attention because of claims Israel supports Nusra.” This narrative appeals to agendas that would like a simple story about Israel working with Jihadists against the Syrian regime. But the real story according to al-Tamimi who lived on the Israeli side of the Golan for a year and a half and has spoken with numerous sources in most groups along the border and meticulously reads Arabic sources about them, is more sedate and complex than it is presented.
“There is no evidence Israel gives aid to Nusra, some individual fighters might get treatment but no evidence that Israel actively supplies them with aid and cash the way they give aid to Fursan.” It is also much weaker than it was three years ago because Jordan only gives aid to other groups. The last group Israel faces is ISIS.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - again anything but moderate)
One source Tamimi quotes said that Israel provides medical and humanitarian aid to Fursan al-Jawlan. Diesel fuel was given to work water pumps so the local cattle could drink. “We’e been besieged for six years and no one offered us a hand of help in anything. The wounded were dying in front of us,” Abu Muhammad told al-Tamimi. His group doesn’t see Israel as a friend or ally, but comes for assistance out of necessity.
Although the frontline between the regime and the rebels on the Golan has remained relatively static for years, the regime wants to take back the area, aided by its Hezbollah and Iranian-backed militias. Al-Tamimi says that the regime doesn’t always flatten towns it re-captures, but finds local solutions he describes as “reconciliation.”
For instance, “they don’t force all rebels to disband.” They might recruit them to a local pro-government militia affiliated with the National Defense Forces. He says the regime has tried this method along the Golan and groups like the Knights of the Golan reject it.
Another discovery Al-Tamimi made is that the idea Israel uses Syrian rebels as a “buffer zone” on the Golan is also complex.
“There wasn’t enough attention paid to Khadr [a Druze village in Syria] and Druze sentiments [in Israel], and what Israel wants.”
He says that if Israel really wanted a buffer against Hezbollah then it would have let Syrian rebels take Khadr in 2015 when they tried. But he characterizes Khadr as a “red line, that it shouldn’t fall to the rebels in deference to the Druze.”
In June 2015 an Israeli ambulance carrying a wounded Syrian was attacked in the Druze town of Majdal Shams and the Syrian man was beaten to death.
Druze accused the ambulances of transporting wounded Syrian rebels who were involved in attacking Khadr. So Israel tolerates the presence of hostile forces very near the border, because dislodging them would hurt Druze and create social tensions in Israel.
The concern for Israel is that one day the stalemate on the Golan will change. Al-Tamimi says that it’s likely a hostile group, such as ISIS or Iranian-backed militias will “try to test the waters with Israel, through harassment. It could happen if they decide that the rebels can’t defeat us but we can’t expand, let’s harass Israel.”
When the situation ends if the rebels are defeated, will refugees pour over the border fleeing the regime? Al-Tamimi thinks the situation isn’t like Lebanon in the 1980 and 90s, Israel isn’t trying to influence the character of Syria.” He also says that many people don’t understand that the Syrian rebels don’t like Israel, they see Israel as a lesser evil than the regime. “They would never say they are a friend of Israel.”
I'll pass on your regards to the Rabbi tonight.
Shabbat shalom
Phil
Before anyone heads off into an antisemitic rant against jews it is worth remembering that most orthodox jews will have nothing to do with Israel because their religion: Judaism, forbids it.
Globs,
That's just outrightly incorrect.
It is a small minority of orthodox Jews.
You'll see them, as I have among the pro-Pal supporters at any demo's outside the Israeli Embassy in Kensington.
By the way some more comments about Israel's that you disagree with recently posted in JPost;
Myths and misconceptions about Israel and Syrian rebels on the Golan
JPost
July 6, 2017
In April 2017 news media in Israel and abroad was abuzz with a story that Islamic State affiliates in Syria near the southern Golan “apologized” to Israel after a clash in November 2016.
“I think this claim they apologized to Israel is nonsense,” says researcher Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi. “It’s a garbling of what took place.” The garbling wasn’t helped by former Israeli defense Minister Moshe Yaalon who had sparked the story in April by characterizing it as an apology.
Al-Tamimi, a researcher at the Rubin Center for Research in International Affairs at IDC Herzliya and a Fellow at Middle East Forum, has written a new report titled ‘Israel’s relations with the Syrian rebels: An assessment,’ that clarifies many details regarding recent incidents along Israel’s Golan border and debunks some myths that have grown up.
The ISIS incident is one of these. In November 2016 a unit of the Army of Khalid bin al-Walid, which is affiliated with ISIS, clashed with Israel.
“It was a small unit responded to a perceived infringement of by Israel onto Jaish Khaled [ISIS]’s territory. This doesn’t mean ISIS apologized. They had this clash and Israel took out the unit in an airstrike and I heard claims they [the local ISIS leadership] were angry about the incident, they felt they had risked triggering too much of an Israeli response,” al-Tamimi said in an interview.
He says that the ISIS affiliate is engaged in a war with other Syrian rebels and “cannot afford to fight on another front against a power with vastly superior military assets.”
Israel also has no interest in sparking a war on the Golan because destroying ISIS on the Golan would require invading Syrian territory. “a politically unviable option,” al-Tamimi writes in his new report.
The ISIS controversy is like many other stories of pragmatism and power politics. Since Syrians began fighting the Bashar Assad regime in 2011 a multiplicity of rebel groups have become part of the kaleidoscope on the Golan border. That means rocket and mortar fire often spillover, as they did in late June, and Israel responds. It means wounded come to the border and Israel must find a way to maintain relations with who is on the other side.
Al-Tamimi says that besides the Syrian regime and its allies, Israel faces four types of Syrian groups on the Golan. First are those that come under the Southern Front of the Free Syrian Army rebels.
(Quantum call these moderate Islamists)
“These are vetted groups that get support from the Operations Room in Amman in Jordan. It’s backed by Jordan, the Gulf States and the West, including the United States.”
The second group are local rebels who are independent of the Southern Front but are non-Islamist. “I profiled the Fursan al-Jawlan, the ‘Knights of the Golan’, it’s independent.”
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists)
The Knights of the Golan group is located in the pastoral village of Jubatha al-Khashab which is a few kilometers from Israeli route 98 and the Druze village of Buq’ata. Al-Tamimi’s article quotes a source as saying the group has 340 members. This is symbolic of the reality of the Syrian civil war. Most politics is local.
As much as outsiders like to see large blots of ISIS or Syrian rebels on a map, many villages have their own politics and own groups that have affiliated with one side or another, but who still operate only on a local level. Relations with each group and keeping the border area quiet, which is Israel’s goal and the goal of local civilians, means acknowledging this localized pragmatism.
The third force along the Golan is that of the Islamist groups such as Ahrar al-Sham, and and Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which used to be known as the Nusra Front and was originally Al Qaeda in Syria.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - they are anything but moderate)
Al-Tamimi notes that Nusra “gets the most polemical attention because of claims Israel supports Nusra.” This narrative appeals to agendas that would like a simple story about Israel working with Jihadists against the Syrian regime. But the real story according to al-Tamimi who lived on the Israeli side of the Golan for a year and a half and has spoken with numerous sources in most groups along the border and meticulously reads Arabic sources about them, is more sedate and complex than it is presented.
“There is no evidence Israel gives aid to Nusra, some individual fighters might get treatment but no evidence that Israel actively supplies them with aid and cash the way they give aid to Fursan.” It is also much weaker than it was three years ago because Jordan only gives aid to other groups. The last group Israel faces is ISIS.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - again anything but moderate)
One source Tamimi quotes said that Israel provides medical and humanitarian aid to Fursan al-Jawlan. Diesel fuel was given to work water pumps so the local cattle could drink. “We’e been besieged for six years and no one offered us a hand of help in anything. The wounded were dying in front of us,” Abu Muhammad told al-Tamimi. His group doesn’t see Israel as a friend or ally, but comes for assistance out of necessity.
Although the frontline between the regime and the rebels on the Golan has remained relatively static for years, the regime wants to take back the area, aided by its Hezbollah and Iranian-backed militias. Al-Tamimi says that the regime doesn’t always flatten towns it re-captures, but finds local solutions he describes as “reconciliation.”
For instance, “they don’t force all rebels to disband.” They might recruit them to a local pro-government militia affiliated with the National Defense Forces. He says the regime has tried this method along the Golan and groups like the Knights of the Golan reject it.
Another discovery Al-Tamimi made is that the idea Israel uses Syrian rebels as a “buffer zone” on the Golan is also complex.
“There wasn’t enough attention paid to Khadr [a Druze village in Syria] and Druze sentiments [in Israel], and what Israel wants.”
He says that if Israel really wanted a buffer against Hezbollah then it would have let Syrian rebels take Khadr in 2015 when they tried. But he characterizes Khadr as a “red line, that it shouldn’t fall to the rebels in deference to the Druze.”
In June 2015 an Israeli ambulance carrying a wounded Syrian was attacked in the Druze town of Majdal Shams and the Syrian man was beaten to death.
Druze accused the ambulances of transporting wounded Syrian rebels who were involved in attacking Khadr. So Israel tolerates the presence of hostile forces very near the border, because dislodging them would hurt Druze and create social tensions in Israel.
The concern for Israel is that one day the stalemate on the Golan will change. Al-Tamimi says that it’s likely a hostile group, such as ISIS or Iranian-backed militias will “try to test the waters with Israel, through harassment. It could happen if they decide that the rebels can’t defeat us but we can’t expand, let’s harass Israel.”
When the situation ends if the rebels are defeated, will refugees pour over the border fleeing the regime? Al-Tamimi thinks the situation isn’t like Lebanon in the 1980 and 90s, Israel isn’t trying to influence the character of Syria.” He also says that many people don’t understand that the Syrian rebels don’t like Israel, they see Israel as a lesser evil than the regime. “They would never say they are a friend of Israel.”
I'll pass on your regards to the Rabbi tonight.
Shabbat shalom
Phil
Transmitter Man]lobs said:
Before anyone heads off into an antisemitic rant against jews it is worth remembering that most orthodox jews will have nothing to do with Israel because their religion: Judaism, forbids it.
Globs,
That's just outrightly incorrect.
It is a small minority of orthodox Jews.
You'll see them, as I have among the pro-Pal supporters at any demo's outside the Israeli Embassy in Kensington.
By the way some more comments about Israel's that you disagree with recently posted in JPost;
Myths and misconceptions about Israel and Syrian rebels on the Golan
JPost
July 6, 2017
In April 2017 news media in Israel and abroad was abuzz with a story that Islamic State affiliates in Syria near the southern Golan “apologized” to Israel after a clash in November 2016.
“I think this claim they apologized to Israel is nonsense,” says researcher Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi. “It’s a garbling of what took place.” The garbling wasn’t helped by former Israeli defense Minister Moshe Yaalon who had sparked the story in April by characterizing it as an apology.
Al-Tamimi, a researcher at the Rubin Center for Research in International Affairs at IDC Herzliya and a Fellow at Middle East Forum, has written a new report titled ‘Israel’s relations with the Syrian rebels: An assessment,’ that clarifies many details regarding recent incidents along Israel’s Golan border and debunks some myths that have grown up.
The ISIS incident is one of these. In November 2016 a unit of the Army of Khalid bin al-Walid, which is affiliated with ISIS, clashed with Israel.
“It was a small unit responded to a perceived infringement of by Israel onto Jaish Khaled [ISIS]’s territory. This doesn’t mean ISIS apologized. They had this clash and Israel took out the unit in an airstrike and I heard claims they [the local ISIS leadership] were angry about the incident, they felt they had risked triggering too much of an Israeli response,” al-Tamimi said in an interview.
He says that the ISIS affiliate is engaged in a war with other Syrian rebels and “cannot afford to fight on another front against a power with vastly superior military assets.”
Israel also has no interest in sparking a war on the Golan because destroying ISIS on the Golan would require invading Syrian territory. “a politically unviable option,” al-Tamimi writes in his new report.
The ISIS controversy is like many other stories of pragmatism and power politics. Since Syrians began fighting the Bashar Assad regime in 2011 a multiplicity of rebel groups have become part of the kaleidoscope on the Golan border. That means rocket and mortar fire often spillover, as they did in late June, and Israel responds. It means wounded come to the border and Israel must find a way to maintain relations with who is on the other side.
Al-Tamimi says that besides the Syrian regime and its allies, Israel faces four types of Syrian groups on the Golan. First are those that come under the Southern Front of the Free Syrian Army rebels.
(Quantum call these moderate Islamists)
“These are vetted groups that get support from the Operations Room in Amman in Jordan. It’s backed by Jordan, the Gulf States and the West, including the United States.”
The second group are local rebels who are independent of the Southern Front but are non-Islamist. “I profiled the Fursan al-Jawlan, the ‘Knights of the Golan’, it’s independent.”
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists)
The Knights of the Golan group is located in the pastoral village of Jubatha al-Khashab which is a few kilometers from Israeli route 98 and the Druze village of Buq’ata. Al-Tamimi’s article quotes a source as saying the group has 340 members. This is symbolic of the reality of the Syrian civil war. Most politics is local.
As much as outsiders like to see large blots of ISIS or Syrian rebels on a map, many villages have their own politics and own groups that have affiliated with one side or another, but who still operate only on a local level. Relations with each group and keeping the border area quiet, which is Israel’s goal and the goal of local civilians, means acknowledging this localized pragmatism.
The third force along the Golan is that of the Islamist groups such as Ahrar al-Sham, and and Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which used to be known as the Nusra Front and was originally Al Qaeda in Syria.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - they are anything but moderate)
Al-Tamimi notes that Nusra “gets the most polemical attention because of claims Israel supports Nusra.” This narrative appeals to agendas that would like a simple story about Israel working with Jihadists against the Syrian regime. But the real story according to al-Tamimi who lived on the Israeli side of the Golan for a year and a half and has spoken with numerous sources in most groups along the border and meticulously reads Arabic sources about them, is more sedate and complex than it is presented.
“There is no evidence Israel gives aid to Nusra, some individual fighters might get treatment but no evidence that Israel actively supplies them with aid and cash the way they give aid to Fursan.” It is also much weaker than it was three years ago because Jordan only gives aid to other groups. The last group Israel faces is ISIS.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - again anything but moderate)
One source Tamimi quotes said that Israel provides medical and humanitarian aid to Fursan al-Jawlan. Diesel fuel was given to work water pumps so the local cattle could drink. “We’e been besieged for six years and no one offered us a hand of help in anything. The wounded were dying in front of us,” Abu Muhammad told al-Tamimi. His group doesn’t see Israel as a friend or ally, but comes for assistance out of necessity.
Although the frontline between the regime and the rebels on the Golan has remained relatively static for years, the regime wants to take back the area, aided by its Hezbollah and Iranian-backed militias. Al-Tamimi says that the regime doesn’t always flatten towns it re-captures, but finds local solutions he describes as “reconciliation.”
For instance, “they don’t force all rebels to disband.” They might recruit them to a local pro-government militia affiliated with the National Defense Forces. He says the regime has tried this method along the Golan and groups like the Knights of the Golan reject it.
Another discovery Al-Tamimi made is that the idea Israel uses Syrian rebels as a “buffer zone” on the Golan is also complex.
“There wasn’t enough attention paid to Khadr [a Druze village in Syria] and Druze sentiments [in Israel], and what Israel wants.”
He says that if Israel really wanted a buffer against Hezbollah then it would have let Syrian rebels take Khadr in 2015 when they tried. But he characterizes Khadr as a “red line, that it shouldn’t fall to the rebels in deference to the Druze.”
In June 2015 an Israeli ambulance carrying a wounded Syrian was attacked in the Druze town of Majdal Shams and the Syrian man was beaten to death.
Druze accused the ambulances of transporting wounded Syrian rebels who were involved in attacking Khadr. So Israel tolerates the presence of hostile forces very near the border, because dislodging them would hurt Druze and create social tensions in Israel.
The concern for Israel is that one day the stalemate on the Golan will change. Al-Tamimi says that it’s likely a hostile group, such as ISIS or Iranian-backed militias will “try to test the waters with Israel, through harassment. It could happen if they decide that the rebels can’t defeat us but we can’t expand, let’s harass Israel.”
When the situation ends if the rebels are defeated, will refugees pour over the border fleeing the regime? Al-Tamimi thinks the situation isn’t like Lebanon in the 1980 and 90s, Israel isn’t trying to influence the character of Syria.” He also says that many people don’t understand that the Syrian rebels don’t like Israel, they see Israel as a lesser evil than the regime. “They would never say they are a friend of Israel.”
I'll pass on your regards to the Rabbi tonight.
Shabbat shalom
Phil
Ummmmm, you might want to read my posts again, very carefully. Globs,
That's just outrightly incorrect.
It is a small minority of orthodox Jews.
You'll see them, as I have among the pro-Pal supporters at any demo's outside the Israeli Embassy in Kensington.
By the way some more comments about Israel's that you disagree with recently posted in JPost;
Myths and misconceptions about Israel and Syrian rebels on the Golan
JPost
July 6, 2017
In April 2017 news media in Israel and abroad was abuzz with a story that Islamic State affiliates in Syria near the southern Golan “apologized” to Israel after a clash in November 2016.
“I think this claim they apologized to Israel is nonsense,” says researcher Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi. “It’s a garbling of what took place.” The garbling wasn’t helped by former Israeli defense Minister Moshe Yaalon who had sparked the story in April by characterizing it as an apology.
Al-Tamimi, a researcher at the Rubin Center for Research in International Affairs at IDC Herzliya and a Fellow at Middle East Forum, has written a new report titled ‘Israel’s relations with the Syrian rebels: An assessment,’ that clarifies many details regarding recent incidents along Israel’s Golan border and debunks some myths that have grown up.
The ISIS incident is one of these. In November 2016 a unit of the Army of Khalid bin al-Walid, which is affiliated with ISIS, clashed with Israel.
“It was a small unit responded to a perceived infringement of by Israel onto Jaish Khaled [ISIS]’s territory. This doesn’t mean ISIS apologized. They had this clash and Israel took out the unit in an airstrike and I heard claims they [the local ISIS leadership] were angry about the incident, they felt they had risked triggering too much of an Israeli response,” al-Tamimi said in an interview.
He says that the ISIS affiliate is engaged in a war with other Syrian rebels and “cannot afford to fight on another front against a power with vastly superior military assets.”
Israel also has no interest in sparking a war on the Golan because destroying ISIS on the Golan would require invading Syrian territory. “a politically unviable option,” al-Tamimi writes in his new report.
The ISIS controversy is like many other stories of pragmatism and power politics. Since Syrians began fighting the Bashar Assad regime in 2011 a multiplicity of rebel groups have become part of the kaleidoscope on the Golan border. That means rocket and mortar fire often spillover, as they did in late June, and Israel responds. It means wounded come to the border and Israel must find a way to maintain relations with who is on the other side.
Al-Tamimi says that besides the Syrian regime and its allies, Israel faces four types of Syrian groups on the Golan. First are those that come under the Southern Front of the Free Syrian Army rebels.
(Quantum call these moderate Islamists)
“These are vetted groups that get support from the Operations Room in Amman in Jordan. It’s backed by Jordan, the Gulf States and the West, including the United States.”
The second group are local rebels who are independent of the Southern Front but are non-Islamist. “I profiled the Fursan al-Jawlan, the ‘Knights of the Golan’, it’s independent.”
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists)
The Knights of the Golan group is located in the pastoral village of Jubatha al-Khashab which is a few kilometers from Israeli route 98 and the Druze village of Buq’ata. Al-Tamimi’s article quotes a source as saying the group has 340 members. This is symbolic of the reality of the Syrian civil war. Most politics is local.
As much as outsiders like to see large blots of ISIS or Syrian rebels on a map, many villages have their own politics and own groups that have affiliated with one side or another, but who still operate only on a local level. Relations with each group and keeping the border area quiet, which is Israel’s goal and the goal of local civilians, means acknowledging this localized pragmatism.
The third force along the Golan is that of the Islamist groups such as Ahrar al-Sham, and and Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which used to be known as the Nusra Front and was originally Al Qaeda in Syria.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - they are anything but moderate)
Al-Tamimi notes that Nusra “gets the most polemical attention because of claims Israel supports Nusra.” This narrative appeals to agendas that would like a simple story about Israel working with Jihadists against the Syrian regime. But the real story according to al-Tamimi who lived on the Israeli side of the Golan for a year and a half and has spoken with numerous sources in most groups along the border and meticulously reads Arabic sources about them, is more sedate and complex than it is presented.
“There is no evidence Israel gives aid to Nusra, some individual fighters might get treatment but no evidence that Israel actively supplies them with aid and cash the way they give aid to Fursan.” It is also much weaker than it was three years ago because Jordan only gives aid to other groups. The last group Israel faces is ISIS.
(Quantum calls these moderate Islamists - again anything but moderate)
One source Tamimi quotes said that Israel provides medical and humanitarian aid to Fursan al-Jawlan. Diesel fuel was given to work water pumps so the local cattle could drink. “We’e been besieged for six years and no one offered us a hand of help in anything. The wounded were dying in front of us,” Abu Muhammad told al-Tamimi. His group doesn’t see Israel as a friend or ally, but comes for assistance out of necessity.
Although the frontline between the regime and the rebels on the Golan has remained relatively static for years, the regime wants to take back the area, aided by its Hezbollah and Iranian-backed militias. Al-Tamimi says that the regime doesn’t always flatten towns it re-captures, but finds local solutions he describes as “reconciliation.”
For instance, “they don’t force all rebels to disband.” They might recruit them to a local pro-government militia affiliated with the National Defense Forces. He says the regime has tried this method along the Golan and groups like the Knights of the Golan reject it.
Another discovery Al-Tamimi made is that the idea Israel uses Syrian rebels as a “buffer zone” on the Golan is also complex.
“There wasn’t enough attention paid to Khadr [a Druze village in Syria] and Druze sentiments [in Israel], and what Israel wants.”
He says that if Israel really wanted a buffer against Hezbollah then it would have let Syrian rebels take Khadr in 2015 when they tried. But he characterizes Khadr as a “red line, that it shouldn’t fall to the rebels in deference to the Druze.”
In June 2015 an Israeli ambulance carrying a wounded Syrian was attacked in the Druze town of Majdal Shams and the Syrian man was beaten to death.
Druze accused the ambulances of transporting wounded Syrian rebels who were involved in attacking Khadr. So Israel tolerates the presence of hostile forces very near the border, because dislodging them would hurt Druze and create social tensions in Israel.
The concern for Israel is that one day the stalemate on the Golan will change. Al-Tamimi says that it’s likely a hostile group, such as ISIS or Iranian-backed militias will “try to test the waters with Israel, through harassment. It could happen if they decide that the rebels can’t defeat us but we can’t expand, let’s harass Israel.”
When the situation ends if the rebels are defeated, will refugees pour over the border fleeing the regime? Al-Tamimi thinks the situation isn’t like Lebanon in the 1980 and 90s, Israel isn’t trying to influence the character of Syria.” He also says that many people don’t understand that the Syrian rebels don’t like Israel, they see Israel as a lesser evil than the regime. “They would never say they are a friend of Israel.”
I'll pass on your regards to the Rabbi tonight.
Shabbat shalom
Phil
I do not consider Al Nusra or any other so called moderate rebel group, moderate at all. You do not get moderate Islamist rebel groups in Syria. Just because they only moderately kill Christians or enslave Yazidi woman, does not make them moderate, because they need the label for the latest propaganda video.
Turn up your sarcasm meter and read again. You were the one telling us how moderate and wonderful the FSA is, killing children, cooperating and supplying and fighting with Al Nusra and ISIS. Totally moderate.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 7th July 19:51
Quantum said:
"You were the one telling us how moderate and wonderful the FSA is, killing children, cooperating and supplying and fighting with Al Nusra and ISIS "
You'll become a politician yet.
Taking comments, twisting them and using the remainder out of context will get you nowhere, at least on this PH thread.
You have never debated the fact that there are more than a single group opposing the Syrian regime. You simply go the troll route in bunching them all together by call anyone and everyone that opposes Assad, regardless of whether they're Syrian or not as 'moderate Islamist rebels.
The day you stop that you'll earn respect.
Phil
"You were the one telling us how moderate and wonderful the FSA is, killing children, cooperating and supplying and fighting with Al Nusra and ISIS "
You'll become a politician yet.
Taking comments, twisting them and using the remainder out of context will get you nowhere, at least on this PH thread.
You have never debated the fact that there are more than a single group opposing the Syrian regime. You simply go the troll route in bunching them all together by call anyone and everyone that opposes Assad, regardless of whether they're Syrian or not as 'moderate Islamist rebels.
The day you stop that you'll earn respect.
Phil
Countdown said:
Transmitter Phil - what do you think about the "Israeli" weapons being found in the possession of Syrian Rebels ?
Hi Countdown,Is this alleged or fact - I don't know.
I 'personally' think that if Israel has indeed given weapons to Syrian opposition fighters then it would be to one or more of the groups in the Golan and only light weapons at that. This to extend Israels arm to keep both IS and Hezbelloah at bay and at least allowing them not to have to put their own boots on Syrian territory - yes I know the history of the Golan.
I do remember reading a good while back that some opposition (FSA) fighters were attacked by Al Nusra and of course it goes without saying that their weapons would have been taken however I'm adding 2 + 2 here and making 5.
With weapons entering the Syrian conflict from many countries, some legit but probably as many illegitimately then I really don't know what to make of this and I'm sure half of the latter were probably stolen.
Just my 2p.
What are your thoughts on this issue?
Phil
The longer Hezbollah and their allies are kept busy fighting the FSA, Al-Nusra etc in Syria the better it is for Israel, if I were Israeli I'd want the same.
Meanwhile it looks like we have a ceasefire in southern Syria.
Meanwhile it looks like we have a ceasefire in southern Syria.
telegraph said:
ceasefire went into effect in three provinces of southern Syria at noon local time on Sunday, in landmark Russian-American deal announced after Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin met last week.
The deal, also agreed with the help of Jordan, encompasses Deraa, Suweida, and Quneitra.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/09/us-russian-backed-ceasefire-takes-effect-southern-syria/amp/The deal, also agreed with the help of Jordan, encompasses Deraa, Suweida, and Quneitra.
Edited by BlackLabel on Sunday 9th July 12:48
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