Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
grumbledoak said:
BlackLabel said:
The Americans haven't killed half a million civilians - sure they've helped to create an atmosphere where hundreds of thousands have died but the deaths directly caused by them will be a fraction of that. Also some of the studies which have estimated the deaths - for example the famous Lancet one - have overestimated casualties.
Looks like 200,000 in Iraq alonehttps://www.statista.com/statistics/269729/documen...
The Syrian "civil" war numbers are even larger but less direct,
https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/04/22/u-n-envoy-rev...
Sure, there's no trusting any source, but it's in that ballpark.
Cobnapint said:
Raygun said:
If Sadam or Assad behaved like civilised members of the human race they wouldn't end up getting bombed.So the buck stops with the despots. It's as simple as that.
Well said.Manufacturing false WMD narratives to justify an invasion, killing hundreds of thousands, unleashing a completely expected orgy of sectarian violence, killing journalists and children for the crime of carrying a camera, torturing and degrading hundreds of prisoners in Abu Graib, then attempting to cover it all up. Nothing like a free fire zone in a city, to prove your civilised nature.
I guess your definition of civilised, somewhat differs from ours. The moral highground has been ceded a long time ago.
The buck stops with the person dropping the bomb, firing the rifle or dropping the mortar down the tube.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 26th December 22:13
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Cobnapint said:
Raygun said:
If Sadam or Assad behaved like civilised members of the human race they wouldn't end up getting bombed.So the buck stops with the despots. It's as simple as that.
Well said.Manufacturing false WMD narratives to justify an invasion, killing hundreds of thousands, unleashing a completely expected orgy of sectarian violence, killing journalists and children for the crime of carrying a camera, torturing and degrading hundreds of prisoners in Abu Graib, then attempting to cover it all up. Nothing like a free fire zone in a city, to prove your civilised nature.
I guess your definition of civilised, somewhat differs from ours. The moral highground has been ceded a long time ago.
The buck stops with the person dropping the bomb, firing the rifle or dropping the mortar down the tube.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 26th December 22:13
It stops with the UN for authorising military operations.
However, now that the UKs version of the military industrial complex has managed to hoodwink the UK gov into building two vast offensive weapon systems IE the QE2 Class and F35b you can be assured that the UK will be at the fore front of expeditionary warfare for the next 50 years.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Cobnapint said:
Raygun said:
If Sadam or Assad behaved like civilised members of the human race they wouldn't end up getting bombed.So the buck stops with the despots. It's as simple as that.
Well said.Manufacturing false WMD narratives to justify an invasion, killing hundreds of thousands, unleashing a completely expected orgy of sectarian violence, killing journalists and children for the crime of carrying a camera, torturing and degrading hundreds of prisoners in Abu Graib, then attempting to cover it all up. Nothing like a free fire zone in a city, to prove your civilised nature.
I guess your definition of civilised, somewhat differs from ours. The moral highground has been ceded a long time ago.
The buck stops with the person dropping the bomb, firing the rifle or dropping the mortar down the tube.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 26th December 22:13
How about invading Kuwait?
As I said they should behave like a decent member of the human race otherwise face being punished and hopefully Iran will heed that advice.
Raygun said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Cobnapint said:
Raygun said:
If Sadam or Assad behaved like civilised members of the human race they wouldn't end up getting bombed.So the buck stops with the despots. It's as simple as that.
Well said.Manufacturing false WMD narratives to justify an invasion, killing hundreds of thousands, unleashing a completely expected orgy of sectarian violence, killing journalists and children for the crime of carrying a camera, torturing and degrading hundreds of prisoners in Abu Graib, then attempting to cover it all up. Nothing like a free fire zone in a city, to prove your civilised nature.
I guess your definition of civilised, somewhat differs from ours. The moral highground has been ceded a long time ago.
The buck stops with the person dropping the bomb, firing the rifle or dropping the mortar down the tube.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 26th December 22:13
How about invading Kuwait?
As I said they should behave like a decent member of the human race otherwise face being punished and hopefully Iran will heed that advice.
And the invasion in Kuwait was not violent. It was basically a walkover and occupy the borders and keep government institutions running as they were.
toastybase said:
The buck stops with Israel
Unfortunately it stops with the muslims who refuse to behave in a civilised way. You've only got to see how the religion has double standards of hating us and the Americans, they are welcomed here and repay us by blowing themselves up at a childrens pop concert or running people over in trucks.If I hated a country I wouldn't live there. They know from the outset we are close ally's of the Americans but that doesn't stop them coming and then turn around and hating us.
Raygun said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Cobnapint said:
Raygun said:
If Sadam or Assad behaved like civilised members of the human race they wouldn't end up getting bombed.So the buck stops with the despots. It's as simple as that.
Well said.Manufacturing false WMD narratives to justify an invasion, killing hundreds of thousands, unleashing a completely expected orgy of sectarian violence, killing journalists and children for the crime of carrying a camera, torturing and degrading hundreds of prisoners in Abu Graib, then attempting to cover it all up. Nothing like a free fire zone in a city, to prove your civilised nature.
I guess your definition of civilised, somewhat differs from ours. The moral highground has been ceded a long time ago.
The buck stops with the person dropping the bomb, firing the rifle or dropping the mortar down the tube.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Wednesday 26th December 22:13
How about invading Kuwait?
As I said they should behave like a decent member of the human race otherwise face being punished and hopefully Iran will heed that advice.
Supporting Islamic fundamentalist groups, weapons, Training, logistics, to overthrow a secular government puts pay to your "Muslim governments" argument above.
Sending one bunch of crazies, giving them weapons and training to fight another bunch of crazies, then inviting the crazies to live in your country, may just have bad outcome. Salman Abedi.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 27th December 07:32
skyrover said:
I tend to judge a country by how it treats its citizens and how accountable the government is.
By that measure there is no comparison.
I agree with that view, much more civilised.By that measure there is no comparison.
Some of the details about the Israeli air attack earlier this week have been made public. IDF again used commercial aircraft as cover for the attack, via Lebanon, which raises a number of questions.
Why do that ? With the risk of hitting or inviting to be hit, a commercial airliner.
It does point to the Syrian air defence becoming more resilient, especially with the Russian component added. Possibly more resistant to jamming and also direct SEAD attack.
A risky action by the IDF, with serious issues for Israel, if it goes badly with a civilian airliner.
skyrover said:
I tend to judge a country by how it treats its citizens and how accountable the government is.
Bit of a continuum though.But the core objection to 'our' exceptionalism (the doctrine that the rule of law and the established - albeit fragile - international system doesn't apply to us when we choose to use force) is that it damages that rule of law and established international system everywhere. (It also makes us look hypocritical and mendacious when we bleat about other states using force).
Bad in principle, doubly bad pragmatically as we move to an era when the West is no longer globally dominant militarily.
skyrover said:
I tend to judge a country by how it treats its citizens and how accountable the government is.
By that measure there is no comparison.
Correct. Kuwait and Halabjah weren't the only downsides to Saddam.By that measure there is no comparison.
He's often praised for 'keeping control' in Iraq before he was deposed. A lot of people tend to forget just how he 'kept control'.
Cobnapint said:
Correct. Kuwait and Halabjah weren't the only downsides to Saddam.
He's often praised for 'keeping control' in Iraq before he was deposed. A lot of people tend to forget just how he 'kept control'.
What is wrong with Arabs / Muslims that they all appear to need a strong dictator to keep them under control ?He's often praised for 'keeping control' in Iraq before he was deposed. A lot of people tend to forget just how he 'kept control'.
Cobnapint said:
skyrover said:
I tend to judge a country by how it treats its citizens and how accountable the government is.
By that measure there is no comparison.
Correct. Kuwait and Halabjah weren't the only downsides to Saddam.By that measure there is no comparison.
He's often praised for 'keeping control' in Iraq before he was deposed. A lot of people tend to forget just how he 'kept control'.
Invades his other neighbour, and he become an evil chemical weapon using, warmonger dictator.
And again...
Assad, evil dictator, killing his people, allowing them to live secular lives, the evil monster. Bomb, depose and destroy him and his country.
Mohammed bin salman, great liberator of Yemen, a great friend of journalists spreader of the wonderfully tolerant Wahabi religion and friend to freedom loving people everywhere.
Not hypocritical at all. Nope. Is the term civilised ?
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Thursday 27th December 09:22
Turkey, Russia and Syrian government may come to blows over Kurds.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/28/syri...
Creates a situation where a NATO member, invades another country, may be attacked by the invaded government in their own country. I am not sure if article 5 of NATO can be invoked under that situation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/28/syri...
Creates a situation where a NATO member, invades another country, may be attacked by the invaded government in their own country. I am not sure if article 5 of NATO can be invoked under that situation.
Another view on the withdrawal,
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/t...
It suggests the troops are going to Iraq, rather than home. Either way, well done Donald.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/t...
It suggests the troops are going to Iraq, rather than home. Either way, well done Donald.
Cobnapint said:
Good article. That covers it quite well. Let us hope all the fighting all ends quickly, Syria can begin to rebuild again.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff