Victim of a Bitcoin and Paypal scam :(

[crosseyedlion]

[crosseyedlion]

[blindswelledrat]

Still don't get what you are on about KFC .
How has he operated outside paypal rules?
How do you get your account compromised legitimately?
That's like popping out to do a quick legal rape

[jogon]

The likely hood their account was compromised is pretty slim compared to the chance they might have tor software and altered their IP address.

If their address is verified then I would personally torch it and ask questions later but I would by no means condone or recommend this type of retribution if I was the OP. Just saying what I might do myself if faced with a similar situation.

I always check via google street view on winning bidders addresses, if it looks like a council estate and the winning bidder wants to collect after paying with paypal on a £500 2nd hand hifi then just cancel it, cash only, simply not worth the risk accepting PayPal on anything valuable.

Not everyone can be bothered reading eBay and PayPal thesis of t's&c's hence the high volume of hobby sellers caught out by the regular ebay buyer scams..

It's a fking minefield and personally not worth bothering with.

[crosseyedlion]

KFC said:

Would you be singing from this same hymn sheet if someone had accessed your Paypal or bank account and bought a bitcoin without you knowing, leaving you $700+ down?

You got greedy, got scammed, and hopefully learned a lesson.

I think you'd need to be absolutely nuts to sell bitcoins via Paypal in any manner at all... even if you post the confirmations etc. Its completely untraceable and irreversable. If they say you posted them a blank sheet of paper what are you going to do?

I really don't understand which planet you're on. If you made an effort to comprehend the situation you'd know both the financial side and the delivery of the goods are completely verifiable from the sellers perspective. As far as I'm aware I haven't infringed on any rules or laws, nor am I more greedy than anyone who goes to work.

I'm not the one who has got scammed, the buyer had someone steal their money (although no evidence of this) and my product where purchased wig said money. Yet although I will not get my goods returned I, as the only person with complete evidence of no wrongdoing are the best outcome to loose £500 or so? Very odd.

I would be singing the same tune if I was the buyer, I'd be gutted but would feel even worse at the thought of the seller loosing it all (when the buyer will probably get it all back).

You've changed your tune from your response to an almost identical eBay issue in another thread (different product) and it's confusing that you take some imaginary moral highground when you openly admit to stealing other digital goods (films). I suggest you go for a long walk tomorrow and not jump to the first conclusion about everyone you see.

[crosseyedlion]

jogon said:

The likely hood their account was compromised is pretty slim compared to the chance they might have tor software and altered their IP address.

If their address is verified then I would personally torch it and ask questions later but I would by no means condone or recommend this type of retribution if I was the OP. Just saying what I might do myself if faced with a similar situation.

I always check via google street view on winning bidders addresses, if it looks like a council estate and the winning bidder wants to collect after paying with paypal on a £500 2nd hand hifi then just cancel it, cash only, simply not worth the risk accepting PayPal on anything valuable.

Not everyone can be bothered reading eBay and PayPal thesis of t's&c's hence the high volume of hobby sellers caught out by the regular ebay buyer scams..

It's a fking minefield and personally not worth bothering with.

You're absolutely right, I genuinely don't believe their account was compromised and yes, the address is verified. We'll see how things pan out. The btc wasn't moved out of their account last time I checked and no other purchases have been made whilst apparently compromised. Seems very fishy.

If it was £100, I'd let it go. £500 though....

[badboyburt]

Seems Bitcoin warn about this kind of scam,

"Chargebacks
One of the first scams surrounding Bitcoin involved Chargebacks. This is when a credit card processor would reverse a charge based on a report of fraud or similar cause. As an example, Eve would purchase Bitcoins from Bob via Paypal. Bob would receive the money from Paypal and send the requested amount of Bitcoins to Eve. Eve would then call Paypal and claim fraud or non-delievery and Paypal would reverse Bob’s transaction and remove the money from his account. Bob was now out the Bitcoins and the money. Do not ever sell Bitcoins to anyone with anything other than cash in a face-to-face encounter."


http://bitcoinintro.com/security/scams/

Ive been interested in BTC for a while, too many horror stories popping up on forums of people getting stuffed by the paypal scam.

[crosseyedlion]

Just poked around, the buyer is a 27 year old plumber who holds 3 directorships. Not the doddery old man with a computer full of spyware I originally I envisaged. The internet is scary.

[mrmr96]

badboyburt said:

Do not ever sell Bitcoins to anyone with anything other than cash in a face-to-face encounter."

Safest certainly, but not entirely practical.

[KFC]

blindswelledrat said:

How do you get your account compromised legitimately?
That's like popping out to do a quick legal rape

Someone said he either pretended he didn't send the transaction when he really did, or he gave the password to someone else. Thats not neccessarily the case - some other 3rd party might really have compromised his account. The plumber might be completely innocent.

crosseyedlion said:

I really don't understand which planet you're on. If you made an effort to comprehend the situation you'd know both the financial side and the delivery of the goods are completely verifiable from the sellers perspective. As far as I'm aware I haven't infringed on any rules or laws, nor am I more greedy than anyone who goes to work.

I'm not the one who has got scammed, the buyer had someone steal their money (although no evidence of this) and my product where purchased wig said money. Yet although I will not get my goods returned I, as the only person with complete evidence of no wrongdoing are the best outcome to loose £500 or so? Very odd.

No you are the one that got scammed - as you're the one thats going to eat the loss.

The terms of the transaction were extremely clear - you weren't going to be covered if it turned out bad. You proceeded to barge ahead anyway... given the nature of the product, why??

crosseyedlion said:

Just poked around, the buyer is a 27 year old plumber who holds 3 directorships. Not the doddery old man with a computer full of spyware I originally I envisaged. The internet is scary.

imo he's decided to rip you off because of the nature of the product - it was a free £500 or so for him... he knew he could get away with it because of the point above and he's decided to fk you over. Maybe he has had his account hacked... I bet we'll never know as the trio of Paypal/eBay/Police are going to try their hardest not to get involved.

Crosseyedlion - who do think should pay the money here? If we assume the bitcoin is gone for good and isn't coming back.

[KFC]

mrmr96 said:

badboyburt said:

Do not ever sell Bitcoins to anyone with anything other than cash in a face-to-face encounter."

Safest certainly, but not entirely practical.

Meeting people from online to do a high value anonymous transaction... there are loads of incidents of that turning out horribly - one in the news recently (America though) of someone buying an iPad from Gumtree and ending up dead...

[Sarnie]

"Exclusions

The Seller Protection policy does not cover the sale of services, intangible or digital goods or prohibited items."

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/seller-prote...

As a company, Paypal will look to ensure that their seller requirements have been met for them to suck up the loss.......based on the above, they aren't going to be interested in taking the hit if they can apportion blame to the OP. It's certainly not right that the OP should lose out of course, but he has used a service that says not to if you want their protection...........

[jogon]

Read the original post.. He admits he has done wrong and doesn't need reminding of it constantly so is now looking for an appropriate response.

Given the official means will do nothing to aide his enquiries he is therefore left with little option but to take the law in to his own hands if he so wish or just take it on the chin.

Those are the facts. If you don't have anything useful to contribute then it's probably not worth bothering.

[KFC]

Sarnie said:

"Exclusions

The Seller Protection policy does not cover the sale of services, intangible or digital goods or prohibited items."

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/seller-prote...

As a company, Paypal will look to ensure that their seller requirements have been met for them to suck up the loss.......based on the above, they aren't going to be interested in taking the hit if they can apportion blame to the OP. It's certainly not right that the OP should lose out of course, but he has used a service that says not to if you want their protection...........

Bitcoins arguably come under the prohibited items - investments, currency and so on. But no sense in wasting much time over that point, as like you say the seller policy doesn't cover intangible stuff anyway.


So for anyone saying the OP shouldn't have to pay, which of the 3 parties shall we pin the loss on:

• The one who was told don't use this service if you want seller protection, but done it anyway
• The one running a payment service which specifically told the seller you won't be covered here
• The plumber who is perhaps a scammer... but perhaps an innocent victim who doesn't even know what a bitcoin is.

[mrmr96]

KFC said:

mrmr96 said:

badboyburt said:

Do not ever sell Bitcoins to anyone with anything other than cash in a face-to-face encounter."

Safest certainly, but not entirely practical.

Meeting people from online to do a high value anonymous transaction... there are loads of incidents of that turning out horribly - one in the news recently (America though) of someone buying an iPad from Gumtree and ending up dead...

Fair enough, getting mugged in person is certainly possible. That's actually one post of yours which makes sense.

[MrsThatcher]

badboyburt said:

Seems Bitcoin warn about this kind of scam,

"Chargebacks
One of the first scams surrounding Bitcoin involved Chargebacks. This is when a credit card processor would reverse a charge based on a report of fraud or similar cause. As an example, Eve would purchase Bitcoins from Bob via Paypal. Bob would receive the money from Paypal and send the requested amount of Bitcoins to Eve. Eve would then call Paypal and claim fraud or non-delievery and Paypal would reverse Bob’s transaction and remove the money from his account. Bob was now out the Bitcoins and the money. Do not ever sell Bitcoins to anyone with anything other than cash in a face-to-face encounter."


http://bitcoinintro.com/security/scams/

Ive been interested in BTC for a while, too many horror stories popping up on forums of people getting stuffed by the paypal scam.

Indeed. I thought rule number 1 was not to buy this stuff with paypal for this very reason. All the bitcoin exchanges seem to promote Barclays pingit or direct bank transfer.

[Terminator X]

Police will not care about "minor" fraud such as this, main reason there is so much of it imho.

TX.

[northwest monkey]

jogon said:

Read the original post.. He admits he has done wrong and doesn't need reminding of it constantly so is now looking for an appropriate response.

Unfortunately for the OP, there isn't an appropriate response. There is no "you need to do x,y & z to get your money back" type solution, and I'd be very surprised if the Police were interested. Might be worth trying though just in case.

For anyone else in future though considering selling Bitcoins (or similar) and accepting Paypal, this is what Paypal have to say about Seller Protection :-

Paypal said:

"Seller Protection

Most transactions go smoothly but if there's a problem, PayPal Seller Protection can help you. For example, if you receive an unauthorised payment or if a buyer claims that an item didn't arrive, we can protect you for the full amount of the sale - at no extra cost. As long as a buyer pays you with PayPal, your eligible transactions are automatically protected.


What’s an eligible transaction? Only physical goods that can be posted and aren’t prohibited by law are covered.

What’s not eligible? Seller Protection does not cover the sale of services, intangible or digital goods.

This isn't hidden on page 375 of some Terms & Conditions, but off their homepage under the link "Security".

[northwest monkey]

Terminator X said:

Police will not care about "minor" fraud such as this, main reason there is so much of it imho.

TX.

You're not wrong. I had a tenant do a runner last year - luckily owing me no rent. Unluckily for Jacamo, Littlewoods, Avon, Brighthouse etc, etc he owed them thousands. He basically kept opening accounts in slightly different names then shopping away quite happily. I offered the Police all this information (forms filled in for loan applications etc) and they weren't remotely interested. I was surprised to be honest - the paper trail was huge.

[Gareth79]

northwest monkey said:

You're not wrong. I had a tenant do a runner last year - luckily owing me no rent. Unluckily for Jacamo, Littlewoods, Avon, Brighthouse etc, etc he owed them thousands. He basically kept opening accounts in slightly different names then shopping away quite happily. I offered the Police all this information (forms filled in for loan applications etc) and they weren't remotely interested. I was surprised to be honest - the paper trail was huge.

From what I last read, the police officially aren't interested in this sort of thing unless contacted from some specific fraud unit that has analysed and collated all the information. Returning the paperwork with "Addressee gone away - also the addressee's name is misspelled - it should be Joe Bloggs not Joe Blogs" would probably be of some help, although if it's the same address they probably figured it out.

Edited by Gareth79 on Monday 30th December 00:34