accountants .. how do you deal with 'simple' questions ?
Discussion
Just out of interest how much do you charge your existing clients for a quick question ??
I had to ask my accountant to confirm something last month which took 5 minutes from them receiving the email to replying to me in the positive.
This morning I received my usual quarterly bill, and discovered that it cost me £45 to ask the question.
The paying isn't an issue, I guess it's just put me off asking any more questions of them until the usual end of year meeting ! Is this usual or should I have read the fine print a little more ! Just wondering how you all deal with those little questions really.
ps .. will i thus be charged for this question ?
I had to ask my accountant to confirm something last month which took 5 minutes from them receiving the email to replying to me in the positive.
This morning I received my usual quarterly bill, and discovered that it cost me £45 to ask the question.
The paying isn't an issue, I guess it's just put me off asking any more questions of them until the usual end of year meeting ! Is this usual or should I have read the fine print a little more ! Just wondering how you all deal with those little questions really.
ps .. will i thus be charged for this question ?
It very much depends on the accountant you are dealing with.
I tend not to charge specifically for individual questions of this nature. I certainly log my time but whether I end up charging for it depends on the overall work level I have done for the client over the year.
Please note - questions may be quick, bit often answers aren't.
I tend not to charge specifically for individual questions of this nature. I certainly log my time but whether I end up charging for it depends on the overall work level I have done for the client over the year.
Please note - questions may be quick, bit often answers aren't.
Eric Mc said:
It very much depends on the accountant you are dealing with.
I tend not to charge specifically for individual questions of this nature. I certainly log my time but whether I end up charging for it depends on the overall work level I have done for the client over the year.
Please note - questions may be quick, bit often answers aren't.
But if the accountant responded within 5 mins, as per the original post, I wouldn't expect to be charged £45......I tend not to charge specifically for individual questions of this nature. I certainly log my time but whether I end up charging for it depends on the overall work level I have done for the client over the year.
Please note - questions may be quick, bit often answers aren't.
I fell out with my original Accountant a few years ago when his fees increased dramatically one year. His explanation was that as my profit had increased, so had his fees in line with my profit.Eh?? I asked what extra work my company had incurred him and he couldn't give a quantifiable reason other than he just thought he could get away with it! Sometimes I think some Accountants just pull figures out of the air, post out the invoices and hide behind their desks to see whether people kick off or just cough up!
My industry dictates that any fees need to be set out right at the outset but Accountants don't seem to follow the same sort of structure...
thanks all. I guess I'll just have to save up my questions and make them earn the money 
Not sure why but it has irked me somewhat.I'd expected something along the lines of what Eric is saying, rather than a flat fee per question. Guess I'll just have to reverse bill him when he next ask's about his email servers ....
Not sure why but it has irked me somewhat.I'd expected something along the lines of what Eric is saying, rather than a flat fee per question. Guess I'll just have to reverse bill him when he next ask's about his email servers ....
You're lucky, at least your accountants answer questions.
The firm I use have three points of contact for me - one for VAT, one for PAYE and one for everything else. The one for everything else (who was incredibly conscientious and good at his job) left suddenly last year and now I have to deal with his boss instead. I'm still waiting for an answer to a simple question that I asked in early December. I mailed the question again two days ago, for the third time. And this really is a simple question that any expert could answer in two minutes, but I'm not an expert which is why I asked it in the first place.
Suffice it to say that it doesn't fill me with confidence in his ability to advise me correctly or in a timely fashion. And moreover, he's been a pain in other respects as well. So if anyone can recommend a firm of accountants, please do! I'm looking to make the switch later this year unless this bloke sorts his attitude out.
The firm I use have three points of contact for me - one for VAT, one for PAYE and one for everything else. The one for everything else (who was incredibly conscientious and good at his job) left suddenly last year and now I have to deal with his boss instead. I'm still waiting for an answer to a simple question that I asked in early December. I mailed the question again two days ago, for the third time. And this really is a simple question that any expert could answer in two minutes, but I'm not an expert which is why I asked it in the first place.
Suffice it to say that it doesn't fill me with confidence in his ability to advise me correctly or in a timely fashion. And moreover, he's been a pain in other respects as well. So if anyone can recommend a firm of accountants, please do! I'm looking to make the switch later this year unless this bloke sorts his attitude out.
Sarnie said:
But if the accountant responded within 5 mins, as per the original post, I wouldn't expect to be charged £45......
I fell out with my original Accountant a few years ago when his fees increased dramatically one year. His explanation was that as my profit had increased, so had his fees in line with my profit.Eh?? I asked what extra work my company had incurred him and he couldn't give a quantifiable reason other than he just thought he could get away with it! Sometimes I think some Accountants just pull figures out of the air, post out the invoices and hide behind their desks to see whether people kick off or just cough up!
My industry dictates that any fees need to be set out right at the outset but Accountants don't seem to follow the same sort of structure...
There are no hard and fast rules set out for how accountants charge. Traditionally, the fees have been based on time spent multiplied by staff members'/partners' charge out rates. The nature of the work being carried out might also carry a different charge out rate too. For example, simple book-keeping work should be charged out at lower rates than complex tax planning work..I fell out with my original Accountant a few years ago when his fees increased dramatically one year. His explanation was that as my profit had increased, so had his fees in line with my profit.Eh?? I asked what extra work my company had incurred him and he couldn't give a quantifiable reason other than he just thought he could get away with it! Sometimes I think some Accountants just pull figures out of the air, post out the invoices and hide behind their desks to see whether people kick off or just cough up!
My industry dictates that any fees need to be set out right at the outset but Accountants don't seem to follow the same sort of structure...
If a job takes "x" amount of time and "y" amount of staff at different charge out rates - that SHOULD dictate the final fee charged.
In reality, of course, that is not always what happens.
In my case, when a client comes to me for the first time, I tend to quote a fee based on what I expect the fee to be based on estimated level of work and time involved. I usually stick to that quote for the first year's work. But if the quote was not realistic, the NEXT time I bill I will raise the fee to a more commercially acceptable level. I will, of course, have forewarned the client that the next fee will have to be set at a more commercially viable level.
I can see where you are coming from as it's a 'discussion' I have with clients on fairly regular basis.
It's a bit different where I am as we are more consultancy based rather than having recurring work. Work can be patchy and as such if a client has a 'quick question' I have to try and recover that time. There is no 'gesture of goodwill to ensure I win the work again next year' factor to consider. The biggest problem I have is that my firm charge in 0.25 hour units so at my charge out rate of £270 that quick question will cost a minimum of £67.50 plus VAT. In the context of the size of jobs we undertake a question 0.25 hours in isolation isn't too much of an issue. We typically agree a capped fee at, say, 20 hours for a particular assignment however when we are bombarded with 'quick questions' over the course of the job which aren't related to the actual assignment then these can easily add up to 4 or 5 hours and the client is particular miffed at why their fee is 25% higher than agreed.
The biggest thing to remember is that whilst you see it as a quick question then unless it's something the accountant sees on a regular basis, or he has answered fairly recently for another client, it is highly likely that he will have to undertake some sort of research to place on file in case the advice provided turns out to be wrong, you sue and the PII provider asks how he came to the conclusion he did.
It's a bit different where I am as we are more consultancy based rather than having recurring work. Work can be patchy and as such if a client has a 'quick question' I have to try and recover that time. There is no 'gesture of goodwill to ensure I win the work again next year' factor to consider. The biggest problem I have is that my firm charge in 0.25 hour units so at my charge out rate of £270 that quick question will cost a minimum of £67.50 plus VAT. In the context of the size of jobs we undertake a question 0.25 hours in isolation isn't too much of an issue. We typically agree a capped fee at, say, 20 hours for a particular assignment however when we are bombarded with 'quick questions' over the course of the job which aren't related to the actual assignment then these can easily add up to 4 or 5 hours and the client is particular miffed at why their fee is 25% higher than agreed.
The biggest thing to remember is that whilst you see it as a quick question then unless it's something the accountant sees on a regular basis, or he has answered fairly recently for another client, it is highly likely that he will have to undertake some sort of research to place on file in case the advice provided turns out to be wrong, you sue and the PII provider asks how he came to the conclusion he did.
As I said, just because the client sees the question as being "quick" doesn't mean that the answer will be quick.
Indeed, the fact that the client has decided to talk to his accountant about a topic indicates that he has an inkling that the topic may be a bit more complex than it might otherwise seem to be.
Many of my clients, when they first approach me, say, "Of course, my affairs are quite straightforward".
They hardly ever are.
Indeed, the fact that the client has decided to talk to his accountant about a topic indicates that he has an inkling that the topic may be a bit more complex than it might otherwise seem to be.
Many of my clients, when they first approach me, say, "Of course, my affairs are quite straightforward".
They hardly ever are.
Eric Mc said:
As I said, just because the client sees the question as being "quick" doesn't mean that the answer will be quick.
Indeed, the fact that the client has decided to talk to his accountant about a topic indicates that he has an inkling that the topic may be a bit more complex than it might otherwise seem to be.
In my case, the answer really is quick. It's a simple question. It's just that he knows all the latest HMRC rules and I don't. The fact I'm asking is no indicator of complexity, it's just that I'm busy and I don't have time to search the HMRC website for hours for the correct answer, so the quickest thing to do is ask the man with the knowledge to impart a tiny bit of it to me! Indeed, the fact that the client has decided to talk to his accountant about a topic indicates that he has an inkling that the topic may be a bit more complex than it might otherwise seem to be.
The problem is the client THINKS the answer will be straightforward but often the underlying legislation that governs that area - whether it be (say) Company Law or tax, may not be simple and more information is needed from the client before the question can be properly answered.
I find the initial answer I HAVE to give a client is "That depends" - followed by a request from me for more details.
Pretty soon the !quick question" turns out to be not so quick after all.
I find the initial answer I HAVE to give a client is "That depends" - followed by a request from me for more details.
Pretty soon the !quick question" turns out to be not so quick after all.
mx stu said:
I can see where you are coming from as it's a 'discussion' I have with clients on fairly regular basis.
It's a bit different where I am as we are more consultancy based rather than having recurring work. Work can be patchy and as such if a client has a 'quick question' I have to try and recover that time. There is no 'gesture of goodwill to ensure I win the work again next year' factor to consider. The biggest problem I have is that my firm charge in 0.25 hour units so at my charge out rate of £270 that quick question will cost a minimum of £67.50 plus VAT. In the context of the size of jobs we undertake a question 0.25 hours in isolation isn't too much of an issue. We typically agree a capped fee at, say, 20 hours for a particular assignment however when we are bombarded with 'quick questions' over the course of the job which aren't related to the actual assignment then these can easily add up to 4 or 5 hours and the client is particular miffed at why their fee is 25% higher than agreed.
The biggest thing to remember is that whilst you see it as a quick question then unless it's something the accountant sees on a regular basis, or he has answered fairly recently for another client, it is highly likely that he will have to undertake some sort of research to place on file in case the advice provided turns out to be wrong, you sue and the PII provider asks how he came to the conclusion he did.
So if you rattle through 6 questions in an hour, you'll bill (cumulatively) an hour and a half for an hours work?It's a bit different where I am as we are more consultancy based rather than having recurring work. Work can be patchy and as such if a client has a 'quick question' I have to try and recover that time. There is no 'gesture of goodwill to ensure I win the work again next year' factor to consider. The biggest problem I have is that my firm charge in 0.25 hour units so at my charge out rate of £270 that quick question will cost a minimum of £67.50 plus VAT. In the context of the size of jobs we undertake a question 0.25 hours in isolation isn't too much of an issue. We typically agree a capped fee at, say, 20 hours for a particular assignment however when we are bombarded with 'quick questions' over the course of the job which aren't related to the actual assignment then these can easily add up to 4 or 5 hours and the client is particular miffed at why their fee is 25% higher than agreed.
The biggest thing to remember is that whilst you see it as a quick question then unless it's something the accountant sees on a regular basis, or he has answered fairly recently for another client, it is highly likely that he will have to undertake some sort of research to place on file in case the advice provided turns out to be wrong, you sue and the PII provider asks how he came to the conclusion he did.
SpeckledJim said:
So if you rattle through 6 questions in an hour, you'll bill (cumulatively) an hour and a half for an hours work?
0.25 is the minimum unit. If it took less than that I'd still have to put 0.25 on my timesheet. 6 questions at the same time that took an hour to answer I'd put 1.0 on my timesheet.
6 questions that took 10 minutes to answer each, but asked at completely different times would be 6 entries of 0.25 on my timesheet.
There is no conspiracy with accountants etc. I'm employed at an annual salary which reflects my experience and qualifications obtained. My employer sets my hourly rate at a level with covers my costs and makes a contribution to overheads/ profit, if I achieve the expected number of billable hours. If every time I got a 5 minute question I said I'll put the time down as non-chargeable then a) why should the client not have to pay for advice, b) I'll get questioned as to why the amount of non-chargeable time is so high and C) the business won't survive long.
As others have said it depends. It depends on the complexity of the question, the IP the accountant has in that area (ie, I might know the answer, but I've put a lot of time into getting there) and it depends on my relationship with the client.
Personally, I don't charge for quick chats, but then the work I do for my clients is largely big ticket stuff, so the odd call here and there is not going to make any difference to me, and creates goodwill with the client. Win win.
If you are only paying a couple of hundered quid to your accountant every year, he may well charge you for every call that's made.
As I once saw when I was seeing an Osteo, you are paying for the Osteo's expertise and experience, not the time he spends with you.
Personally, I don't charge for quick chats, but then the work I do for my clients is largely big ticket stuff, so the odd call here and there is not going to make any difference to me, and creates goodwill with the client. Win win.
If you are only paying a couple of hundered quid to your accountant every year, he may well charge you for every call that's made.
As I once saw when I was seeing an Osteo, you are paying for the Osteo's expertise and experience, not the time he spends with you.
It always amused me when I was in practice that clients would spend thousands per year on legal fees and then argue the toss over an additional £50 we had charged for time spent. And then moan that my 10 year old Jag showed that I was clearly "earning too much". And your lawyer's brand new Ferrari is OK then?
It depends on the client; it depends on the question; and it depends on the accountant.
In theory, yes, you should be charged for a "simple question". As to how much that charge is, that is dependent on the fee agreement and the charge-out rates contained therein. If your accountant is charging in 15 minute intervals (some do, especially if using older systems), then potentially, yes, you can be charged 15 minutes time for a question which took 5 minutes to answer.
You have to remember that stopping what you are doing, reading / listening to the query, responding, and then working out where the hell you were in what you were working on, will happily take 15 minutes, even if the response only takes 5 minutes to write.
As for charges increasing based on your ability to pay, that is not uncommon - usually more a question of feeling unable to charge a full fee to a client struggling on £25k per year, than over-charging those who are more successful.
It depends on the client; it depends on the question; and it depends on the accountant.
In theory, yes, you should be charged for a "simple question". As to how much that charge is, that is dependent on the fee agreement and the charge-out rates contained therein. If your accountant is charging in 15 minute intervals (some do, especially if using older systems), then potentially, yes, you can be charged 15 minutes time for a question which took 5 minutes to answer.
You have to remember that stopping what you are doing, reading / listening to the query, responding, and then working out where the hell you were in what you were working on, will happily take 15 minutes, even if the response only takes 5 minutes to write.
As for charges increasing based on your ability to pay, that is not uncommon - usually more a question of feeling unable to charge a full fee to a client struggling on £25k per year, than over-charging those who are more successful.
SGirl said:
In my case, the answer really is quick. It's a simple question. It's just that he knows all the latest HMRC rules and I don't. The fact I'm asking is no indicator of complexity, it's just that I'm busy and I don't have time to search the HMRC website for hours for the correct answer, so the quickest thing to do is ask the man with the knowledge to impart a tiny bit of it to me!
What is the question ?
Dominicc01 said:
It always amused me when I was in practice that clients would spend thousands per year on legal fees and then argue the toss over an additional £50 we had charged for time spent. And then moan that my 10 year old Jag showed that I was clearly "earning too much". And your lawyer's brand new Ferrari is OK then?
It depends on the client; it depends on the question; and it depends on the accountant.
In theory, yes, you should be charged for a "simple question". As to how much that charge is, that is dependent on the fee agreement and the charge-out rates contained therein. If your accountant is charging in 15 minute intervals (some do, especially if using older systems), then potentially, yes, you can be charged 15 minutes time for a question which took 5 minutes to answer.
You have to remember that stopping what you are doing, reading / listening to the query, responding, and then working out where the hell you were in what you were working on, will happily take 15 minutes, even if the response only takes 5 minutes to write.
As for charges increasing based on your ability to pay, that is not uncommon - usually more a question of feeling unable to charge a full fee to a client struggling on £25k per year, than over-charging those who are more successful.
That is how I see this as well.It depends on the client; it depends on the question; and it depends on the accountant.
In theory, yes, you should be charged for a "simple question". As to how much that charge is, that is dependent on the fee agreement and the charge-out rates contained therein. If your accountant is charging in 15 minute intervals (some do, especially if using older systems), then potentially, yes, you can be charged 15 minutes time for a question which took 5 minutes to answer.
You have to remember that stopping what you are doing, reading / listening to the query, responding, and then working out where the hell you were in what you were working on, will happily take 15 minutes, even if the response only takes 5 minutes to write.
As for charges increasing based on your ability to pay, that is not uncommon - usually more a question of feeling unable to charge a full fee to a client struggling on £25k per year, than over-charging those who are more successful.
I specifically offer free answers to "simple" queries but I do raise the matter that this is on the understanding that if in any charging period I have spent over 30 mins doing this then I am able to make a charge - if I didn't I have a potential 1 month per year that I may be giving free advice which isn't sensible at all!
David
Isn't this a little like the handy mans invoice story.
Man turns up spends 5 mins looking at some plumbing (or whatever) and then just before leaving gives it a bash with a hammer. All fixed.
Total bill for 5 mins work £20. Charge for time spent £1, charge for knowing where to bash it with the hammer £19.
Theres many permutations but you get the idea.
Man turns up spends 5 mins looking at some plumbing (or whatever) and then just before leaving gives it a bash with a hammer. All fixed.
Total bill for 5 mins work £20. Charge for time spent £1, charge for knowing where to bash it with the hammer £19.
Theres many permutations but you get the idea.
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