I'm 30 with no pension...

[dan_almond]

drainbrain said:

The question isn't whether or not it's a con or a lie or a fantasy.

The question is, given this opportunity, what would you do? The investment, or money in a pension plan instead?

Yup!

[sidicks]

drainbrain said:

The question isn't whether or not it's a con or a lie or a fantasy.

The question is, given this opportunity, what would you do? The alternative investment, or money in a pension plan instead?

if such an asset existed, then you'd obviously choose to buy it via your pension fund, thus obtaining tax relief on the cost and accessing the immediate 100% capital gain tax free...

[CarlosFandango11]

drainbrain said:

The question isn't whether or not it's a con or a lie or a fantasy.

The question is, given this opportunity, what would you do? The alternative investment, or money in a pension plan instead?

I would do it. Many times over, and by the end of the week my £5,000 would have turned into millions and I would be able to immediately retire with no need of a pension.

I just need to know where I can buy these magic beans.

[sidicks]

CarlosFandango11 said:

I would do it. Many times over, and by the end of the week my £5,000 would have turned into millions and I would be able to immediately retire with no need of a pension.

I just need to know where I can buy these magic beans.

Are magic beans a permitted investment for a S.I.P.P. ??

[drainbrain]

sidicks said:

if such an asset existed, then you'd obviously choose to buy it via your pension fund, thus obtaining tax relief on the cost and accessing the immediate 100% capital gain tax free...

Now how does a regular contribution personal pension plan do THAT?

[drainbrain]

sidicks said:

CarlosFandango11 said:

I would do it. Many times over, and by the end of the week my £5,000 would have turned into millions and I would be able to immediately retire with no need of a pension.

I just need to know where I can buy these magic beans.

Are magic beans a permitted investment for a S.I.P.P. ??

What? Are you saying that this apparently complex instrument has conditions on what you can and can't invest in???

[sidicks]

drainbrain said:

What? Are you saying that this apparently complex instrument has conditions on what you can and can't invest in???

It's a wrapper, not an 'investment'. HTH.

Good luck with your magic beans!

[drainbrain]

So does this wrapper/SIPP/complex instrument/university degree subject have CONDITIONS on what you can and can't put in it?

Do you see why complexity and the need for understanding might put people off wanting to engage with it when they have no particular need to?

I think you understand (because you have said so) why FLEXIBILITY is an issue. Now we're talking COMPLEXITY. Do you think the complex nature of pension products puts anyone off them?

[Grandad Gaz]

rossmc88 said:

Too Late said:

This has got me thinking.
Are you better to over pay your mortgage or put into a pension?

I'm going with the overpay my mortgage option so I'll at least have a roof over my head when I'm old. Then once I've got that paid off in 7 years, currently 29, I'll hammer lots of money into ISAs

I think pensions are great if you are a high bracket tax payer, but for normal people not on more than 30K, I think paying off a mortgage early and saving thousands on compound interest is the way to go

The whole tax relief thing is a load of crap too as you are just deferring the tax until you receive the pension then you will be taxed probably at a higher rate than now too

Pension companies just want to make themselves lots of money using your contributions as capital, then they "may" pay you it back when it comes to retirement. It's all a big scam

Edited by rossmc88 on Tuesday 31st January 10:07

Pretty much my thoughts on pensions too.

OP, teacher pensions are to die for. She'll be able to support both of you when she retires....at 60

[dan_almond]

Grandad Gaz said:

Pretty much my thoughts on pensions too.

OP, teacher pensions are to die for. She'll be able to keep both of you when she retires....at 60

True that!

[sidicks]

Grandad Gaz said:

Pretty much my thoughts on pensions too.

Can you actually justify those opinions?

Grandad Gaz said:

OP, teacher pensions are to die for. She'll be able to support both of you when she retires....at 60

At least you got this right!

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 31st January 17:40

[sidicks]

drainbrain said:

So does this wrapper/SIPP/complex instrument/university degree subject have CONDITIONS on what you can and can't put in it?

Do you see why complexity and the need for understanding might put people off wanting to engage with it when they have no particular need to?

I think you understand (because you have said so) why FLEXIBILITY is an issue. Now we're talking COMPLEXITY. Do you think the complex nature of pension products puts anyone off them?

You're claiming complexity, not me. It's just a tax wrapper after all (which you claimed to understand...).

How complex are your magic beans and what are the tax implications...?!

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 31st January 17:41

[fat80b]

sidicks said:

drainbrain said:

The question isn't whether or not it's a con or a lie or a fantasy.

The question is, given this opportunity, what would you do? The alternative investment, or money in a pension plan instead?

if such an asset existed, then you'd obviously choose to buy it via your pension fund, thus obtaining tax relief on the cost and accessing the immediate 100% capital gain tax free...

Indeed

drainbrain - can I request that you be a bit more specific in your example? as at the moment, it all seems a little far-fetched.

What is the asset that you would recommend to the OP - one that we can all buy for 5K and sell for 10k which also provides an income in the meantime?

Once I know this, I should be able to tell you what I would do.

Bob

[drainbrain]

sidicks said:

drainbrain said:

So does this wrapper/SIPP/complex instrument/university degree subject have CONDITIONS on what you can and can't put in it?

Do you see why complexity and the need for understanding might put people off wanting to engage with it when they have no particular need to?

I think you understand (because you have said so) why FLEXIBILITY is an issue. Now we're talking COMPLEXITY. Do you think the complex nature of pension products puts anyone off them?

You're claiming complexity, not me. It's just a tax wrapper after (which you claimed to understand...).

So there's nothing really to understand, then. Not complex at all. Okay.

What about their RELIABILITY? All these people who were relying on their pension plan to produce a decent retirement income and it didn't happen. NOT because they didn't understand something. No no. Nothing complex about pension products. But for some reason they get let down. They relied on something that didn't come through for them. So do you think RELIABILITY could be another feature which puts people off and makes them seek alternatives?

[sidicks]

drainbrain said:

So there's nothing really to understand, then. Not complex at all. Okay.

What about their RELIABILITY? All these people who were relying on their pension plan to produce a decent retirement income and it didn't happen. NOT because they didn't understand something. No no. Nothing complex about pension products. But for some reason they get let down. They relied on something that didn't come through for them. So do you think RELIABILITY could be another feature which puts people off and makes them seek alternatives?

So you STILL don't understand a pension is just an investment wrapper?

How disappointing.

[drainbrain]

fat80b said:

sidicks said:

drainbrain said:

The question isn't whether or not it's a con or a lie or a fantasy.

The question is, given this opportunity, what would you do? The alternative investment, or money in a pension plan instead?

if such an asset existed, then you'd obviously choose to buy it via your pension fund, thus obtaining tax relief on the cost and accessing the immediate 100% capital gain tax free...

Indeed

drainbrain - can I request that you be a bit more specific in your example? as at the moment, it all seems a little far-fetched.

What is the asset that you would recommend to the OP - one that we can all buy for 5K and sell for 10k which also provides an income in the meantime?

Once I know this, I should be able to tell you what I would do.

Bob

Well, Bob. Different people do different things. And depending on what they do depends what opportunities come their way.

You want a specific real world example of what can be bought for 5 and sold for 10?? Hmmm.

Here's a top-of-the-head one.

A pawnshop. Frequently high value items aren't redeemed. (which is why you see them on sale in the window). So a bloke walks in with his WG Rolex sub and walks out with (I dunno) say £5k? Some weeks later the pawnbroker has it in the window for what? £15k?

Would that be a real enough typical example or would you like me to think up another one?

[sidicks]

drainbrain said:

Well, Bob. Different people do different things. And depending on what they do depends what opportunities come their way.

You want a specific real world example of what can be bought for 5 and sold for 10?? Hmmm.

Here's a top-of-the-head one.

A pawnshop. Frequently high value items aren't redeemed. (which is why you see them on sale in the window). So a bloke walks in with his WG Rolex sub and walks out with (I dunno) say £5k? Some weeks later the pawnbroker has it in the window for what? £15k?

Would that be a real enough typical example or would you like me to think up another one?

Genius!

So, all our 'man on the street' who wants to invest £50 a month to save for his retirement has to do is:
- Save £50 per month under the mattress for over 8 years to get the £5k needed
- He's then got to set up a pawnbrokers and wait for someone to turn up with a £10-15k Rolex they are happy to accept £5 for
- He's then got to find someone to sell it to.

And this is a credible strategy for millions of people to invest tens of billions of pounds each and every year?

[drainbrain]

sidicks said:

drainbrain said:

Well, Bob. Different people do different things. And depending on what they do depends what opportunities come their way.

You want a specific real world example of what can be bought for 5 and sold for 10?? Hmmm.

Here's a top-of-the-head one.

A pawnshop. Frequently high value items aren't redeemed. (which is why you see them on sale in the window). So a bloke walks in with his WG Rolex sub and walks out with (I dunno) say £5k? Some weeks later the pawnbroker has it in the window for what? £15k?

Would that be a real enough typical example or would you like me to think up another one?

Genius!

So, all our 'man on the street' who wants to invest £50 a month to save for his retirement has to do is:
- Save £50 per month under the mattress for over 8 years to get the £5k needed
- He's then got to set up a pawnbrokers and wait for someone to turn up with a £10-15k Rolex they are happy to accept £5 for
- He's then got to find someone to sell it to.

And this is a credible strategy for millions of people to invest tens of billions of pounds each and every year?

My example was of how a pawnbroker might act given. a choice of investing £5k in his business or sticking it in a pension fund. Someone else might do it another way with another product.But what it's getting at is the concept that many people might prefer the relative certainties of investing in what they know in order to accumulate as opposed to investing in the relative uncertainties of what they don't know - i.e. via a pension product.

In fact many people do this. O they may also have a pension, as do I, but retirement funding wasn't planned to depend on it. They prefer to accumulate a retirement pot via means they can control and understand. Too many pitfalls in the pension malarkey and too many people end up a bit disappointed with it. Which is why people ask for alternative suggestions.

Doesn't make them bad people, y'know.

What's hard to understand about it?

[CarlosFandango11]

drainbrain said:

Okay. Concrete example. You're in the process of buying something for £5000 which will bring you £150 a month. And which you can sell very quickly for £10000 if you want to.

I'm still waiting for this concrete example.

I suspect I could be waiting a long time....

[fat80b]

drainbrain said:

... They prefer to accumulate a retirement pot via means they can control and understand. Too many pitfalls in the pension malarkey and too many people end up a bit disappointed with it.

So you disagreed with the original point about people failing to understand pensions and counter claimed that many people "often don't like pensions because they DO understand them" ...... and your argument is that people should come up with a crazy pawnshop opening Rolex buying and selling schemes (or equivalent) because this is easier to understand than a pension.

You my friend are a genius......

Bob