Bitcoin et al

[NickCQ]

Behemoth said:

Segwit 2x was already toast and now it is thoroughly burnt toast. It only really had one developer of note & it now turns out the chap (Jeff Garzik) has been spending all his time creating a new alt coin rather than bothering with tiresome replay attack protection work on his Segwit 2X fork. Moreover, his whole motive behind creating Segwit 2x was arguably to make his new coin (Metronome) attractive. Because Metronome is designed to mitigate "infighting between developers". You couldn't make it up Move along, nothing more to see here

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the 'hard fork' now happening whether the developer is involved or not?
What will happen when that block 494784 is reached? Are bitcoin holders at risk?

[Behemoth]

He's still involved. He hasn't disassociated himself from segwit 2x. It's just patently clear he is focused on something else. There is no risk with this hard fork.

[NickCQ]

Behemoth said:

There is no risk with this hard fork.

So you say, but what will actually happen on the day it takes place?

[Behemoth]

Well, of course it is my opinion.

Segwit 2x can't coexist with BTC (the circumstances that would allow that are a bit technical and highly improbable). If it doesn't get consensus then it will die. Both will coexist whilst consensus is resolved via price discovery and may take a few weeks, could be a few days. One will cave in to the other as hashrates get shifted. The speed of collapse is uncertain, the inevitability near certain.

[Mousem40]

dbs2000 said:

So what are people's thoughts on the fork this week?

Personally for me I sold a lot of BTC over the weekend when it went over $6000. My reasons are,

1) there has been a lot of alt coins traded to BTC given that the snapshot is happening in the next 48 hours and people believe BTG is free money
2) I think post fork, this money will move back to the altcoins like LTC, Dash, Eth.
3) When this money moves back I fully expect a retracement and a bit of a panic sell off, panic sell off = great entry point.

I've got a small sell position I opened at $6100 and will hold that.

Long term, I still expect BTC to be near $7k by the end of the year.

I award you a prize of 3 internets for this prediction

[wombleh]

x5x3 said:

I can run a centralised database and update it all day to suit myself. I cannot do that with the blockchain.

That is pretty much the exact selling point for the axa insurance. It's insuring against flights being delayed by more than two hours. Once you've paid and the smart contract is raised it will automatically pay out of the registered flight number is delayed. There is no raising a claim, no arguing with the claims department, no reneging on the policy, no exclusions or excuses, as soon as 2 hours is up it'll pay out every time.

Quite tempted to try it out next time I fly https://fizzy.axa

Edited by wombleh on Wednesday 25th October 06:14

[ATV]

Behemoth said:

HannsG said:

Capital gains tax? I thought HMRC have no idea how to treat bitcoin income?

Yes they do. It's just like any other currency. Crystallise gains and you are due to pay if you go over annual limits (11. sthg k this f/y)

Can you please help me with another Capital Gains Tax question.

What is C.G.T. to be paid if you don't convert to fiat but instead to another alt-coin?

For example:

In January 2017 I buy 100 Bitcoins at £1,000 each = £100,000

In October 2017 my Bitcoins are worth £4,000 = £400,000

In November 2017 I add these 100 Bitcoins onto an exchange and swap them for Ethereum at £200 each = I now have 2,000 ETH, no bitcoins and no GBP (I never converted the BTC to GBP first, it was a straight BTC>ETH swap)

Is any of the above liable for CGT? (with the obvious caveat that all opinions are guidance only and I must seek professional advice)

Thanks

[WindyCommon]

ATV said:

Can you please help me with another Capital Gains Tax question.

What is C.G.T. to be paid if you don't convert to fiat but instead to another alt-coin?

For example:

In January 2017 I buy 100 Bitcoins at £1,000 each = £100,000

In October 2017 my Bitcoins are worth £4,000 = £400,000

In November 2017 I add these 100 Bitcoins onto an exchange and swap them for Ethereum at £200 each = I now have 2,000 ETH, no bitcoins and no GBP (I never converted the BTC to GBP first, it was a straight BTC>ETH swap)

Is any of the above liable for CGT? (with the obvious caveat that all opinions are guidance only and I must seek professional advice)

Thanks

It makes no difference that you didn't convert to GBP "on the way" to your ETH holding. In simple terms you have a chargeable gain of £300k on your original £100k investment, and the base cost of your ETH holding is £400k.

[dbs2000]

Mousem40 said:

I award you a prize of 3 internets for this prediction

It's nice to be right sometimes. Like others on here I spend too much time readong about this stuff and I think eventually people realised the BTG was junk.

I want it back to $4.5k so I can buy up some more and sit back.... we'll see. Patience is the key.

[Behemoth]

WindyCommon said:

It makes no difference that you didn't convert to GBP "on the way" to your ETH holding. In simple terms you have a chargeable gain of £300k on your original £100k investment, and the base cost of your ETH holding is £400k.

That's my understanding, too. It can get into almighty mess mountain if you bot trade miniscule amounts. There are online services around to help, mostly US$ based but the principles must be pretty much the same. Just make sure you hold onto your records.

[ATV]

Behemoth said:

WindyCommon said:

It makes no difference that you didn't convert to GBP "on the way" to your ETH holding. In simple terms you have a chargeable gain of £300k on your original £100k investment, and the base cost of your ETH holding is £400k.

That's my understanding, too. It can get into almighty mess mountain if you bot trade miniscule amounts. There are online services around to help, mostly US$ based but the principles must be pretty much the same. Just make sure you hold onto your records.

Sorry guys but one more question just so that I understand.

If I don't transfer ANY amounts but just hold Bitcoin indefinitely then there is no chargeable "gain" and I don't have to pay any CGT?

However by "trading" one coin (Bitcoin) for another coin (Ether) I will have been assessed against the £300,000 "gain" and then pay the tax on this. Later if the Ether increases in value from £200 say to £800 after 2 years, I would also have to pay CGT on the next "gain"?

Is this a correct way of understanding it?

[Behemoth]

ATV said:

If I don't transfer ANY amounts but just hold Bitcoin indefinitely then there is no chargeable "gain" and I don't have to pay any CGT?

Correct

ATV said:

However by "trading" one coin (Bitcoin) for another coin (Ether) I will have been assessed against the £300,000 "gain" and then pay the tax on this. Later if the Ether increases in value from £200 say to £800 after 2 years, I would also have to pay CGT on the next "gain"?

My understanding is that you can calculate either trade by trade or an average. If you have bought BTC over a period of time, you can decide which BTC (or part of BTC) is being traded and therefore what is crystallised as a gain. You don't pay on the next increase in value until you crystallise the gain by trading it into sthg else.

[dbs2000]

Behemoth said:

stuff

This is my understanding too.
However, if you have a SIPP pension with someone like HL, they have a Bitcoin price tracker fund. SIPPS are CG free so I do my trading there and have simply held other coins in a wallet. For instance I cashed in all my holding at $6200, that was a 58% gain on the initial investment. I'm waiting for a nice new entry point and intend to abuse the hell out of

Edited by dbs2000 on Wednesday 25th October 12:12

[bobbylondonuk]

Here is another Question for the PH gurus.

Can I start to invest in the Crypto market via a conventional Fund? If so is it available on the Spread betting platform or Sipp wrapper or ISA wrapper or taxable investment account?

Is it a direct tracker of the price or does it look different to the values on the crypto exchanges?

Thanks
Bobby

[Behemoth]

dbs2000 said:

someone like HL, they have a Bitcoin price tracker fund

Interesting. I just had a look at the prospectus for that. Seems like you've forex exposure going from £ to SEK/EUR to US$ to BTC and back again. It's also only traded Mon-Fri business hours, so you're stuffed if you want to act on weekend news. The ETF (ETN to be more accurate) is backed by an outfit in Jersey (CI).

[anonymous-user]

Behemoth said:

Interesting. I just had a look at the prospectus for that. Seems like you've forex exposure going from £ to SEK/EUR to US$ to BTC and back again. It's also only traded Mon-Fri business hours, so you're stuffed if you want to act on weekend news. The ETF (ETN to be more accurate) is backed by an outfit in Jersey (CI).

It's almost as if they make it complicated on purpose!

[ATV]

Thanks for the CGT replies

[dbs2000]

Behemoth said:

Interesting. I just had a look at the prospectus for that. Seems like you've forex exposure going from £ to SEK/EUR to US$ to BTC and back again. It's also only traded Mon-Fri business hours, so you're stuffed if you want to act on weekend news. The ETF (ETN to be more accurate) is backed by an outfit in Jersey (CI).

Completely correct, I had to close trades on Monday morning, not quite at the top. If you intend to HODL for 3 -5 years then it matters not.

[Daaaveee]

BTC price seems to be holding quite well post BTG fork? I was expecting it to at least drop below $5000 as people move back to altcoins after switching to BTC to get their 'free' BTG.

[4130chris]

Daaaveee said:

BTC price seems to be holding quite well post BTG fork? I was expecting it to at least drop below $5000 as people move back to altcoins after switching to BTC to get their 'free' BTG.

me too Daaaveee. I was waiting to buy more Bitcoin at the 'dip', but it didn't really seem to go down. Meanwhile, the BitCoin Gold seems like a real let down. Might never get any money out of the fork.