Care home - protecting assets
Discussion
I took a look into this recently on behalf of my father, who has a modest little house that he and particularly my late mother worked very hard to buy over 40+ years of working.
I considered the moral arguments against my mother's desire to give help contribute to her grandchildren's future e.g. tuition fees, house deposit
Some years ago the government shifted responsibility to local councils who just cannot afford to provide care especially given the caps on council tax of recent years and other austerity measures that have affected all public services.
In short my research led me to the point that there is probably no way of legally protecting the asset. The council have huge powers to reverse transactions that are seen to be in avoidance of care costs.
As always it seems like those that have worked hard and been prudent are penalised.
I considered the moral arguments against my mother's desire to give help contribute to her grandchildren's future e.g. tuition fees, house deposit
Some years ago the government shifted responsibility to local councils who just cannot afford to provide care especially given the caps on council tax of recent years and other austerity measures that have affected all public services.
In short my research led me to the point that there is probably no way of legally protecting the asset. The council have huge powers to reverse transactions that are seen to be in avoidance of care costs.
As always it seems like those that have worked hard and been prudent are penalised.
benjijames28 said:
f
k what's morally right, you protect your family.
My grandad worked hard his whole life, paid off his mortgage and saved some money up, paid into a private pension. He's been retired ten years, his savings are gone, he's scrimping by on a pension much lower than what he was promised when paying in.
His brother has worked his whole life for the council, refusing to buy his council house as it's cheaper to let council maintain it etc..., Spent all his own money on holidays, fags and booze.
My grandad will have his house taken to pay for a care home if required, his brother who squandered all his money, didn't pay into anything... Will get the same care home treatment paid for by the state.
If my grandad had a legal way of protecting his assets to pass onto his kids then why shouldn't he?
The real wealthy people didn't get where they are by playing fair. Get off your high horses.
Because he will live out his last years in a nice care home with staff who actually care about the residents and have time to look after your grandad.k what's morally right, you protect your family. My grandad worked hard his whole life, paid off his mortgage and saved some money up, paid into a private pension. He's been retired ten years, his savings are gone, he's scrimping by on a pension much lower than what he was promised when paying in.
His brother has worked his whole life for the council, refusing to buy his council house as it's cheaper to let council maintain it etc..., Spent all his own money on holidays, fags and booze.
My grandad will have his house taken to pay for a care home if required, his brother who squandered all his money, didn't pay into anything... Will get the same care home treatment paid for by the state.
If my grandad had a legal way of protecting his assets to pass onto his kids then why shouldn't he?
The real wealthy people didn't get where they are by playing fair. Get off your high horses.
Those of you who are just at the start of finding a dementia care home for relatives i'd urge you to spend a couple of days visiting as many in your area so you then actually know the difference in price and care.
I was in this position this time last year , luckily this is what my mrs does for a job so we had a pretty good idea what we were looking at.
The homes varied from heavily council funded to totally private funded which were like nice 4 star hotels.
The worst we looked at we rang the bell , no staff came so we let ourselves in which triggered a alarm which stayed ringing the 45 mins we looked around , the place smelt of urine and the staff didn't look like they gave a fk about us or the residents.
A major factor is the good ones will have waiting lists to get so with all the money in the world you still might not get a room.
Another good thing to look for is which homes are looking for staff, the good homes keep there staff and agency staff look to get into the good ones.
Dementia is a of a illness and when it comes to our relatives you need to jump in and ask the staff stupid questions , which you'll find actually have serious answers.
I always thought it was sad as fk all these old people sat in a room with a jazz band , turns out they keep hold of there memories of music so they might completely shut down until they hear a song from there past then they know all the words.
Good staff will have time to tap into your relatives history and talk to them trying to jog past memories.
I was in this position this time last year , luckily this is what my mrs does for a job so we had a pretty good idea what we were looking at.
The homes varied from heavily council funded to totally private funded which were like nice 4 star hotels.
The worst we looked at we rang the bell , no staff came so we let ourselves in which triggered a alarm which stayed ringing the 45 mins we looked around , the place smelt of urine and the staff didn't look like they gave a f
k about us or the residents.A major factor is the good ones will have waiting lists to get so with all the money in the world you still might not get a room.
Another good thing to look for is which homes are looking for staff, the good homes keep there staff and agency staff look to get into the good ones.
Dementia is a
of a illness and when it comes to our relatives you need to jump in and ask the staff stupid questions , which you'll find actually have serious answers.I always thought it was sad as f
k all these old people sat in a room with a jazz band , turns out they keep hold of there memories of music so they might completely shut down until they hear a song from there past then they know all the words.Good staff will have time to tap into your relatives history and talk to them trying to jog past memories.
benjijames28 said:
fk what's morally right, you protect your family.
My grandad worked hard his whole life, paid off his mortgage and saved some money up, paid into a private pension. He's been retired ten years, his savings are gone, he's scrimping by on a pension much lower than what he was promised when paying in.
His brother has worked his whole life for the council, refusing to buy his council house as it's cheaper to let council maintain it etc..., Spent all his own money on holidays, fags and booze.
My grandad will have his house taken to pay for a care home if required, his brother who squandered all his money, didn't pay into anything... Will get the same care home treatment paid for by the state.
If my grandad had a legal way of protecting his assets to pass onto his kids then why shouldn't he?
The real wealthy people didn't get where they are by playing fair. Get off your high horses.
Simple - the kids will pay for it anyway. Either in higher taxes now to pay for the health care costs of (all) old people. Or by increasing the national debt. Which is simply a case of spending your kid's money now on yourself as they will have to pay off the debt at some point in the future. There's no magic money tree.k what's morally right, you protect your family. My grandad worked hard his whole life, paid off his mortgage and saved some money up, paid into a private pension. He's been retired ten years, his savings are gone, he's scrimping by on a pension much lower than what he was promised when paying in.
His brother has worked his whole life for the council, refusing to buy his council house as it's cheaper to let council maintain it etc..., Spent all his own money on holidays, fags and booze.
My grandad will have his house taken to pay for a care home if required, his brother who squandered all his money, didn't pay into anything... Will get the same care home treatment paid for by the state.
If my grandad had a legal way of protecting his assets to pass onto his kids then why shouldn't he?
The real wealthy people didn't get where they are by playing fair. Get off your high horses.
oyster said:
Ridiculous.
Legal planning for either tax or benefit purposes is just sensible family financial planning.
If you can't do it for some reason then you have no right to berate others for doing so. If it's illegal then it's a different argument and I'd expect people to be honest and not do it, even if enforecement doesn't happen.
But if it's legal, then how can their be a moral hazard?
Because legal doesn't equal moral? And different people have different moral views on tax planning - whereas legally it is generally very clearly defined.Legal planning for either tax or benefit purposes is just sensible family financial planning.
If you can't do it for some reason then you have no right to berate others for doing so. If it's illegal then it's a different argument and I'd expect people to be honest and not do it, even if enforecement doesn't happen.
But if it's legal, then how can their be a moral hazard?
vsonix said:
benjijames28 said:
The real wealthy people didn't get where they are by playing fair. Get off your high horses.
^ this unfortunately, but that's capitalism, in a nutshell.
When you have your meeting with the home manager and if there's a room at the home you want they tell you what the deal is , there's no negotiation because if it's a decent home and you decline the room then they just contact the next name on the list.
By some of the comments on here i can only assume you have zero experience of the whole elderly care system.
IANAL (but I do listen to my OH occasionally, who is). Your parents will have taken legal advice and changed their ownership to tenants in common, from joint tenants. 50% ownership each, bequeathed to whoever they want. Ideally both parties need to be on the deeds.
If your father needs care, as long as his wife continues to live in the house, AND she is over 60 or in receipt of disability benefit, they cannot ever touch EITHER half of the house. Again, IANAL, but this is what I think is correct. Wife passes away, and gifts her half to children, again, afaik council cannot claim any part of the asset, but again, you do need specialist legal advice to confirm this.
There's deprivation of assets regulations which are now very tricky to avoid, councils are with good reason getting very hot on this - if alz is already diagnosed when the tenancy is changed, you may have council problems down the line - again, seek specialist advice. Making wills and considering protection of assets needs to be done EARLY.
eta http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/EN-GB/Factsheets...
The moral question of death and taxes is irrelevant : when you've worked your fingers to the bone for half a century maybe you'd like the choice to help your family out rather than watch all your hard-earned disappear, while the man in the bed next to you who spent decades watching Jeremy Kyle still gets the same slop for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Money creates choices - well worth a few trips around various old peoples homes to get a feel for the better choices money can bring. Your parents need to have a conversation with you - 2 star or 5 star or somewhere in between. I've been in more than a few homes, witnessing wills with my OH, and the variation in quality is wide, to put it politely. Good luck
If your father needs care, as long as his wife continues to live in the house, AND she is over 60 or in receipt of disability benefit, they cannot ever touch EITHER half of the house. Again, IANAL, but this is what I think is correct. Wife passes away, and gifts her half to children, again, afaik council cannot claim any part of the asset, but again, you do need specialist legal advice to confirm this.
There's deprivation of assets regulations which are now very tricky to avoid, councils are with good reason getting very hot on this - if alz is already diagnosed when the tenancy is changed, you may have council problems down the line - again, seek specialist advice. Making wills and considering protection of assets needs to be done EARLY.
eta http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/EN-GB/Factsheets...
The moral question of death and taxes is irrelevant : when you've worked your fingers to the bone for half a century maybe you'd like the choice to help your family out rather than watch all your hard-earned disappear, while the man in the bed next to you who spent decades watching Jeremy Kyle still gets the same slop for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Money creates choices - well worth a few trips around various old peoples homes to get a feel for the better choices money can bring. Your parents need to have a conversation with you - 2 star or 5 star or somewhere in between. I've been in more than a few homes, witnessing wills with my OH, and the variation in quality is wide, to put it politely. Good luck
Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 22 March 08:58
I think many who have been through all this in recent years, for parents etc, will have come to realise that there's no good solution.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
Robertj21a said:
I think many who have been through all this in recent years, for parents etc, will have come to realise that there's no good solution.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
The gulf between decent self funded homes and council funded is huge going by ny experience from last year.You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
andy43 said:
Your parents will have taken legal advice and changed their ownership to tenants in common, from joint tenants. 50% ownership each, bequeathed to whoever they want. Ideally both parties need to be on the deeds.
If your father needs care, as long as his wife continues to live in the house, AND she is over 60 or in receipt of disability benefit, they cannot ever touch EITHER half of the house. Again, IANAL, but this is what I think is correct. Wife passes away, and gifts her half to children, again, afaik council cannot claim any part of the asset, but again, you do need specialist legal advice to confirm this.
The above is correct, but see note belowIf your father needs care, as long as his wife continues to live in the house, AND she is over 60 or in receipt of disability benefit, they cannot ever touch EITHER half of the house. Again, IANAL, but this is what I think is correct. Wife passes away, and gifts her half to children, again, afaik council cannot claim any part of the asset, but again, you do need specialist legal advice to confirm this.
Edited by andy43 on Wednesday 22 March 08:58
1) Own house as tenants in common
2) On first death 50% house passes to family member- other than partner
3) If surviving partner already in a care home or has to be admitted in future, house cannot be assessed as part of assets of surviving partner when consideration being made for care home costs
(How much is 50% of a house worth if one party does not want to sell?)
Their are some government guidance note which I will try to find and post a link to, these were changed about 2013 and as usual made the situation less clear.
Advise is based on my own experience with my local authority, mine tried to convince me I was wrong and claimed above £30k was owed which would have to be paid upon the sale of the house. They eventually relented.
Just to add both parents were cared for in an excellent residential care home with local authorities agreement and although the house was't considered for the payment of fees they both still contributed a considerable amount towards their care fees.
This is a link to regulations in 2011 should be able to find updates from this information.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chargin...
Edited by twokcc on Wednesday 22 March 10:50
Edited by twokcc on Wednesday 22 March 11:04
egor110 said:
Robertj21a said:
I think many who have been through all this in recent years, for parents etc, will have come to realise that there's no good solution.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
The gulf between decent self funded homes and council funded is huge going by ny experience from last year.You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
Is that it? For £800 a week?
I've gone through all this in the last few weeks so ignoring all the self-righteous claptrap on both sides for a moment, here's some accurate and up-to-date figures for nursing homes in the West Sussex area:
Nursing home charge for fully 'self-funding' resident ( ie anyone with cash or assets of more than £23,250) : £1022 PER WEEK. That's for a mid-range nursing home with a 'good' rating from the CQC. Figures I had quoted to me ranged from £800 for a dump with a poor CQC rating per week to £1400+)
Once the savings/assets fall below the £23,250 threshold he stays in the same nursing home, same room, same food, same staff etc but now qualifies for council support and the cost of the room falls to £822 per week. Thats made up of £576 from council, £156 from NHS (nursing support) and £100 per week 'top up' from the family (the top up has to come from family/friend as the resident is bizarrely not allowed to make the extra contribution himself from the remaining £23k). However, the £576 from the council is then recovered from his pension (state and private) of around £300 per week plus a forfeiture of money from his remaining savings so the council is actually contributing less than £200 per week.
So, while he's 'self funding' he is subsidising the 'council funded' residents to the tune of £200 per week. Once he's so called 'council funded' he still spends every penny of his pension, continues to munch through his own savings and the family have to find £450 per month from their own savings. That's after he's spent 50 years of his 90 year life paying taxes, rates, NICs etc. Where's the fairness in all that?
Nursing home charge for fully 'self-funding' resident ( ie anyone with cash or assets of more than £23,250) : £1022 PER WEEK. That's for a mid-range nursing home with a 'good' rating from the CQC. Figures I had quoted to me ranged from £800 for a dump with a poor CQC rating per week to £1400+)
Once the savings/assets fall below the £23,250 threshold he stays in the same nursing home, same room, same food, same staff etc but now qualifies for council support and the cost of the room falls to £822 per week. Thats made up of £576 from council, £156 from NHS (nursing support) and £100 per week 'top up' from the family (the top up has to come from family/friend as the resident is bizarrely not allowed to make the extra contribution himself from the remaining £23k). However, the £576 from the council is then recovered from his pension (state and private) of around £300 per week plus a forfeiture of money from his remaining savings so the council is actually contributing less than £200 per week.
So, while he's 'self funding' he is subsidising the 'council funded' residents to the tune of £200 per week. Once he's so called 'council funded' he still spends every penny of his pension, continues to munch through his own savings and the family have to find £450 per month from their own savings. That's after he's spent 50 years of his 90 year life paying taxes, rates, NICs etc. Where's the fairness in all that?
[quote=monoloco and £100 per week 'top up' from the family (the top up has to come from family/friend
[/quote]
I seem to recall that although the local authority will tell you otherwise, you shouldn't be having to do this.
Unfortunately all bookmark reference on now ditched computer but maybe worth your while doing some research on this - start with google and see where it leads you.
[/quote]
I seem to recall that although the local authority will tell you otherwise, you shouldn't be having to do this.
Unfortunately all bookmark reference on now ditched computer but maybe worth your while doing some research on this - start with google and see where it leads you.
oyster said:
egor110 said:
Robertj21a said:
I think many who have been through all this in recent years, for parents etc, will have come to realise that there's no good solution.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
The gulf between decent self funded homes and council funded is huge going by ny experience from last year.You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
Is that it? For £800 a week?
oyster said:
egor110 said:
Robertj21a said:
I think many who have been through all this in recent years, for parents etc, will have come to realise that there's no good solution.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
The gulf between decent self funded homes and council funded is huge going by ny experience from last year.You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
Is that it? For £800 a week?
The cheaper homes just stuck the dementia residents in 1 big room plonked in front of a tv , there was no staff interaction.
The homes stank of urine indicating either the staff didn't have time to clean up or the staff couldn't be bothered .
Like i said go and actually look at some then come back on here , because frankly you have nothing to base your opinion on.
WinstonWolf said:
oyster said:
egor110 said:
Robertj21a said:
I think many who have been through all this in recent years, for parents etc, will have come to realise that there's no good solution.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
The gulf between decent self funded homes and council funded is huge going by ny experience from last year.You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
Is that it? For £800 a week?
Nobody had one to one care , they were in a locked unit with a rotating team of staff looking after all the residents , nobody had like a personal chaperone.
egor110 said:
WinstonWolf said:
oyster said:
egor110 said:
Robertj21a said:
I think many who have been through all this in recent years, for parents etc, will have come to realise that there's no good solution.
You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
The gulf between decent self funded homes and council funded is huge going by ny experience from last year.You end up selling your house and then paying £800 per week for a reasonably good care home or you squander your money while you're alive and end up in a similar one (slightly lower standard) funded by the council.
Is that it? For £800 a week?
Nobody had one to one care , they were in a locked unit with a rotating team of staff looking after all the residents , nobody had like a personal chaperone.
£800 per week for a patient with advanced dementia is a very low figure.Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff