private school fees
Discussion
22s said:
And what good does giving your offspring 18k a year in passive income do for them, or society? If you'd said - give them £300k to start a business, or invest in real estate (could get 3 or 4 decent HMOs netting 12k per year each for 300k), or literally anything other than 18k passive income so they can get a crap job at the local karting track I might have seen your logic!
There is more to life and development than just getting a (low) passive income, and £18k per year (whilst not to be sniffed at) represents probably a fraction of the opportunities you get from the network you build at a private school (which private schoolers will get value from IF, and only if, they have the "chutzpah" to seize those opportunities).
I guess the question here is: assuming you can afford it, is there more value in giving your child a lump sum of cash or giving them a private education? And the answer is: it depends on the child, BUT I would venture that most would benefit more from an independent school education than from being giving a lump of cash from mum and dad like a pseudo-Trustifarian and told to crack on!
I used the go-karting track example to illustrate that in pretty much the worse case scenario they would still be better off financially than the average salaried employee. Obviously like you said, there are more productive things you could do with a lump sum or passive income of 18k.There is more to life and development than just getting a (low) passive income, and £18k per year (whilst not to be sniffed at) represents probably a fraction of the opportunities you get from the network you build at a private school (which private schoolers will get value from IF, and only if, they have the "chutzpah" to seize those opportunities).
I guess the question here is: assuming you can afford it, is there more value in giving your child a lump sum of cash or giving them a private education? And the answer is: it depends on the child, BUT I would venture that most would benefit more from an independent school education than from being giving a lump of cash from mum and dad like a pseudo-Trustifarian and told to crack on!
I know four people who have been to private school and none of them are better off financially than they would have been if they went to the local comprehensive. They don't seem to have taken advantage of the networks you mention either, I would be interested to know what percentage of students do take advantage of this.
There are obviously advantages of going private and if money was no object then it definitely makes sense. It does seem like a lot of people struggle with the fees and are taking on a lot of debt in some cases to fund them.
Trexthedinosaur said:
I went to state school, no local grammar or I would have tried to apply, a good friend of mine attended a top school in Kent, we are roughly two years apart in age.
The difference in the soft skills, confidence, public speaking, when we first started working together is immeasurable, it has taken me 5 years to mature to the same stage he was at, if I can afford it the children will go to private school or at the very least a grammar school.
Generally when his friends visit, mainly Oxbridge graduates, they all have really interesting jobs all attained through school / university contacts as well as their own achievements, it is not just about the grades but your whole demeanour, that is what, for me, you are buying.
That's interesting, I have not really noticed much difference with the people I know. Maybe it does depend on the school. There may be a significant gulf between the very top schools such as Eton compared to the local private schools.The difference in the soft skills, confidence, public speaking, when we first started working together is immeasurable, it has taken me 5 years to mature to the same stage he was at, if I can afford it the children will go to private school or at the very least a grammar school.
Generally when his friends visit, mainly Oxbridge graduates, they all have really interesting jobs all attained through school / university contacts as well as their own achievements, it is not just about the grades but your whole demeanour, that is what, for me, you are buying.
This was and still is a top school, £35k+ p.a., perhaps the difference is my friends and I know nobody who went, all low-middle income backgrounds and 0% chance of affording private school.
Many of my friends households were on sub £15k income, struggling to afford a car and new uniforms!!
But as my parents said, perhaps there is an air of complacency, we work in the same company, I am senior to him (now) and earn more but he has 500k+ of property mortgage free so no real need for him to push, he is just enjoying life ... whereas to achieve the same I will need to work for 'x' number of years.
I would say it is worth every penny, although we are looking on the Wirral / Chester to ensure access to some good grammar schools or academies.
Many of my friends households were on sub £15k income, struggling to afford a car and new uniforms!!
But as my parents said, perhaps there is an air of complacency, we work in the same company, I am senior to him (now) and earn more but he has 500k+ of property mortgage free so no real need for him to push, he is just enjoying life ... whereas to achieve the same I will need to work for 'x' number of years.
I would say it is worth every penny, although we are looking on the Wirral / Chester to ensure access to some good grammar schools or academies.
We looked at both state & private for our two.....it was two moments that stood out at the state that put us on: firstly, for each classroom, there were a few desks in the corridor: we were told the better children got to sit there (eh?!!). Second, our younger toddler picked a book up from a small display of books, and the Head snapped at her to put it back.
We both knew at that point we would sacrifice what we had order to not send them there!
Ultimately it may not make a massive difference to results. Son has a good friend (born 4 days apart!) who just finished a First in history at Cambridge, so clearly state works for some! Good parenting helps there, I suspect: one big difference between the types of school is the parental support for them: there were one or two disruptive ones at our's school....they were weeded out along the way!
Equally, unless your child is really good at sports, private schools can tend to leave them behind on the sporting front (I felt).
I know families where only one child (in one case, of four!) went to private school, and it seems to have worked out. As has been said before, generally those schools make the kids understand how lucky they are and have them working very hard to appreciate it!
However, I am MASSIVELY proud of how social and capable ours have turned out. A good work ethic, enquiringly mind and broad knowledge. Ability to talk to all levels of people. Frequent comments from friends who perhaps haven't seen them in a while on what lovely children (now adults!) we have. I suspect a chunk of that is down to the schooling.
Still finishing their degrees off (oldest had a gap year and travelled the world - something I'd like to do now the costs are abating!), but I have confidence they will do just fine!
The world is changing.....20 years from now, many jobs will be driven by robotics & AI...the humans who have sociable skills will be the ones to thrive. IMHO. The schooling may not make a mass of difference, but as other have said, it does breed a confidence and belief that will help in their world.
OP, it is your choice, and if you chose to save the money, try even harder than you may otherwise have to stay engaged: take them on weekend trips, give them experiences, take them out of their comfort zone. Make them do Duke of Edinburgh *beyond* just bronze level (ideally to gold) - shows employers they have some "get up & go"!
Either way I'm sure it will be fine!
We both knew at that point we would sacrifice what we had order to not send them there!
Ultimately it may not make a massive difference to results. Son has a good friend (born 4 days apart!) who just finished a First in history at Cambridge, so clearly state works for some! Good parenting helps there, I suspect: one big difference between the types of school is the parental support for them: there were one or two disruptive ones at our's school....they were weeded out along the way!
Equally, unless your child is really good at sports, private schools can tend to leave them behind on the sporting front (I felt).
I know families where only one child (in one case, of four!) went to private school, and it seems to have worked out. As has been said before, generally those schools make the kids understand how lucky they are and have them working very hard to appreciate it!
However, I am MASSIVELY proud of how social and capable ours have turned out. A good work ethic, enquiringly mind and broad knowledge. Ability to talk to all levels of people. Frequent comments from friends who perhaps haven't seen them in a while on what lovely children (now adults!) we have. I suspect a chunk of that is down to the schooling.
Still finishing their degrees off (oldest had a gap year and travelled the world - something I'd like to do now the costs are abating!), but I have confidence they will do just fine!
The world is changing.....20 years from now, many jobs will be driven by robotics & AI...the humans who have sociable skills will be the ones to thrive. IMHO. The schooling may not make a mass of difference, but as other have said, it does breed a confidence and belief that will help in their world.
OP, it is your choice, and if you chose to save the money, try even harder than you may otherwise have to stay engaged: take them on weekend trips, give them experiences, take them out of their comfort zone. Make them do Duke of Edinburgh *beyond* just bronze level (ideally to gold) - shows employers they have some "get up & go"!
Either way I'm sure it will be fine!
I think it's been well covered in here, but the reasons we have sent both ours to public schools are in this order:
1. Network. The schools are well networked with other very prestigious academic institutions (Yale, Princeton, Oxbridge etc) and with their alumni. The parents of the other pupils, and the other boys themselves, are also likely to offer good networking opportunities for my sons.
2. Attainment: The boys' peers are more likely to be from affluent, successful backgrounds with supportive parents. The VAST majority are ambitious. Therefore, my sons' are more likely to be "pulled up" to fulfil their potential, rather than "dragged down" and waste their potential - simply because that is the context and environment they are being educated in.
3. Opportunities: Beyond the (frankly staggering) facilities, the range of activities on offer is amazing. Sports coaches are often ex-professional; some have played at international level. The variety in terms of trips, hobbies, skills etc. is almost unlimited. Small classes, individual attention all help. Keen, engaged teachers that seem to love educating classes of bright, attentive children who are well behaved, diligent and respectful.
4. Soft Skills: A really key area. Public speaking training, debating, national competitions in these areas. Building confidence and the ability to argue and defend one's position. Being well dressed, punctual, courteous. Building confidence though positive reinforcement.
5. Social Awareness: Focus on empathy and social awareness. Undertaking trips to see the world and help communities - e.g. trips to Africa. Being aware of the privileges they have and not taking them for granted.
6. Exam success. The least important in my view. Exams will open the door but are no guarantee of success in life. I find that private schools are a lot less "hot house" like than many of the grammars and place much more emphasis on the other points above.
Hope that helps. Obviously there is no guarantee of success... and what you don't want is success at the cost of a childhood -(hence the ordering of my points above with the "tiger mum" approach being placed firmly at the end of my list!)
UV
p.s. no, I didn't go to private school!
1. Network. The schools are well networked with other very prestigious academic institutions (Yale, Princeton, Oxbridge etc) and with their alumni. The parents of the other pupils, and the other boys themselves, are also likely to offer good networking opportunities for my sons.
2. Attainment: The boys' peers are more likely to be from affluent, successful backgrounds with supportive parents. The VAST majority are ambitious. Therefore, my sons' are more likely to be "pulled up" to fulfil their potential, rather than "dragged down" and waste their potential - simply because that is the context and environment they are being educated in.
3. Opportunities: Beyond the (frankly staggering) facilities, the range of activities on offer is amazing. Sports coaches are often ex-professional; some have played at international level. The variety in terms of trips, hobbies, skills etc. is almost unlimited. Small classes, individual attention all help. Keen, engaged teachers that seem to love educating classes of bright, attentive children who are well behaved, diligent and respectful.
4. Soft Skills: A really key area. Public speaking training, debating, national competitions in these areas. Building confidence and the ability to argue and defend one's position. Being well dressed, punctual, courteous. Building confidence though positive reinforcement.
5. Social Awareness: Focus on empathy and social awareness. Undertaking trips to see the world and help communities - e.g. trips to Africa. Being aware of the privileges they have and not taking them for granted.
6. Exam success. The least important in my view. Exams will open the door but are no guarantee of success in life. I find that private schools are a lot less "hot house" like than many of the grammars and place much more emphasis on the other points above.
Hope that helps. Obviously there is no guarantee of success... and what you don't want is success at the cost of a childhood -(hence the ordering of my points above with the "tiger mum" approach being placed firmly at the end of my list!)
UV
p.s. no, I didn't go to private school!
Ultraviolet said:
I think it's been well covered in here, but the reasons we have sent both ours to public schools are in this order:
1. Network. The schools are well networked with other very prestigious academic institutions (Yale, Princeton, Oxbridge etc) and with their alumni. The parents of the other pupils, and the other boys themselves, are also likely to offer good networking opportunities for my sons.
2. Attainment: The boys' peers are more likely to be from affluent, successful backgrounds with supportive parents. The VAST majority are ambitious. Therefore, my sons' are more likely to be "pulled up" to fulfil their potential, rather than "dragged down" and waste their potential - simply because that is the context and environment they are being educated in.
3. Opportunities: Beyond the (frankly staggering) facilities, the range of activities on offer is amazing. Sports coaches are often ex-professional; some have played at international level. The variety in terms of trips, hobbies, skills etc. is almost unlimited. Small classes, individual attention all help. Keen, engaged teachers that seem to love educating classes of bright, attentive children who are well behaved, diligent and respectful.
4. Soft Skills: A really key area. Public speaking training, debating, national competitions in these areas. Building confidence and the ability to argue and defend one's position. Being well dressed, punctual, courteous. Building confidence though positive reinforcement.
5. Social Awareness: Focus on empathy and social awareness. Undertaking trips to see the world and help communities - e.g. trips to Africa. Being aware of the privileges they have and not taking them for granted.
6. Exam success. The least important in my view. Exams will open the door but are no guarantee of success in life. I find that private schools are a lot less "hot house" like than many of the grammars and place much more emphasis on the other points above.
Hope that helps. Obviously there is no guarantee of success... and what you don't want is success at the cost of a childhood -(hence the ordering of my points above with the "tiger mum" approach being placed firmly at the end of my list!)
UV
p.s. no, I didn't go to private school!
Nailed it1. Network. The schools are well networked with other very prestigious academic institutions (Yale, Princeton, Oxbridge etc) and with their alumni. The parents of the other pupils, and the other boys themselves, are also likely to offer good networking opportunities for my sons.
2. Attainment: The boys' peers are more likely to be from affluent, successful backgrounds with supportive parents. The VAST majority are ambitious. Therefore, my sons' are more likely to be "pulled up" to fulfil their potential, rather than "dragged down" and waste their potential - simply because that is the context and environment they are being educated in.
3. Opportunities: Beyond the (frankly staggering) facilities, the range of activities on offer is amazing. Sports coaches are often ex-professional; some have played at international level. The variety in terms of trips, hobbies, skills etc. is almost unlimited. Small classes, individual attention all help. Keen, engaged teachers that seem to love educating classes of bright, attentive children who are well behaved, diligent and respectful.
4. Soft Skills: A really key area. Public speaking training, debating, national competitions in these areas. Building confidence and the ability to argue and defend one's position. Being well dressed, punctual, courteous. Building confidence though positive reinforcement.
5. Social Awareness: Focus on empathy and social awareness. Undertaking trips to see the world and help communities - e.g. trips to Africa. Being aware of the privileges they have and not taking them for granted.
6. Exam success. The least important in my view. Exams will open the door but are no guarantee of success in life. I find that private schools are a lot less "hot house" like than many of the grammars and place much more emphasis on the other points above.
Hope that helps. Obviously there is no guarantee of success... and what you don't want is success at the cost of a childhood -(hence the ordering of my points above with the "tiger mum" approach being placed firmly at the end of my list!)
UV
p.s. no, I didn't go to private school!
ultraweasel said:
hmm,
I don't have an issue with which school / University people go to.
However, in my previous life as a mechanical design engineer for one of the 'big three' automotive manufacturers, I had the job of mentoring graduates on their rotation on the graduate development scheme.
There was a definite attitude difference between the graduates from 'state' schools / universities and those from public schools / Red Brick Universities.
It wasn't always a good difference.
It was so obvious that the graduates from public schools had such self belief that they were very difficult to manage - they couldn't handle the fact that they didn't actually know what the hell they were talking about:
'But I've got a first in engineering! I know what I'm talking about!' - When dealing with engineers that had been doing their jobs for more years than the graduate had been alive.
They also used that approach when dealing with our suppliers. They caused more problems than they solved. Arrogance comes to mind.
However, the graduates from so called 'lesser' schools and Universities were more open to learning and dealt with suppliers with respect. And probably learnt more about engineering.
Just my observations from the sharp end - an expensive education does not mean automatic success in the workplace.
Regards,
Andy
I would suggest they aren't ideally suited to an Engineering role - certainly not if they have ambition.I don't have an issue with which school / University people go to.
However, in my previous life as a mechanical design engineer for one of the 'big three' automotive manufacturers, I had the job of mentoring graduates on their rotation on the graduate development scheme.
There was a definite attitude difference between the graduates from 'state' schools / universities and those from public schools / Red Brick Universities.
It wasn't always a good difference.
It was so obvious that the graduates from public schools had such self belief that they were very difficult to manage - they couldn't handle the fact that they didn't actually know what the hell they were talking about:
'But I've got a first in engineering! I know what I'm talking about!' - When dealing with engineers that had been doing their jobs for more years than the graduate had been alive.
They also used that approach when dealing with our suppliers. They caused more problems than they solved. Arrogance comes to mind.
However, the graduates from so called 'lesser' schools and Universities were more open to learning and dealt with suppliers with respect. And probably learnt more about engineering.
Just my observations from the sharp end - an expensive education does not mean automatic success in the workplace.
Regards,
Andy
Interesting thread.
I went to a well known boarding school 80's/90's. I have absolutely no inclination nor do I send my children to private school. I suspect the realities of what it is like as a kid (i.e. a drunken/drugged up sleep over at your mate's house 24/7) vs what parents think it is like are very different
. As a genuine question, are the people agonising over this decision privately educated or state educated wanting the best for their kids?
The main difference bitd were the facilities and opportunities that a private education afforded over a state education. In 2017 these opportunities are far more accessible and available to everyone. It just takes the parents to invest the time to inspire (rather than force) their children to take them up. My kids' (admittedly 'Outstanding') state education both at school and extracurricular is way in excess of anything I ever did. Hopefully fewer of their friends will die from drug/drink related issues than mine have...
Ok, so my children find it amusing that I used to fence, play a game called Fives and shoot at my school's range, but wtf really, REALLY, beyond parental snob value, has that got to do with modern life?
If I was in a position to spunk a net £60k a year on my children's education without batting an eyelid then, sure, I would think about it. But I see very little value in that if you have to work to the point where you don't see your kids in order to afford it. Better (imho) to work to get to the position where you (rather than any employer) determine how much time you spend with your children and send them to a decent state school instead.
I went to a well known boarding school 80's/90's. I have absolutely no inclination nor do I send my children to private school. I suspect the realities of what it is like as a kid (i.e. a drunken/drugged up sleep over at your mate's house 24/7) vs what parents think it is like are very different
. As a genuine question, are the people agonising over this decision privately educated or state educated wanting the best for their kids?The main difference bitd were the facilities and opportunities that a private education afforded over a state education. In 2017 these opportunities are far more accessible and available to everyone. It just takes the parents to invest the time to inspire (rather than force) their children to take them up. My kids' (admittedly 'Outstanding') state education both at school and extracurricular is way in excess of anything I ever did. Hopefully fewer of their friends will die from drug/drink related issues than mine have...
Ok, so my children find it amusing that I used to fence, play a game called Fives and shoot at my school's range, but wtf really, REALLY, beyond parental snob value, has that got to do with modern life?
If I was in a position to spunk a net £60k a year on my children's education without batting an eyelid then, sure, I would think about it. But I see very little value in that if you have to work to the point where you don't see your kids in order to afford it. Better (imho) to work to get to the position where you (rather than any employer) determine how much time you spend with your children and send them to a decent state school instead.
MCLARENSLR said:
Lets say you you invest 15k a year for 12 years at a compounded at 7% you would be looking at a pot of over 300k which could then be invested giving you an income of say 18k a year.
Do this and use the money to pay for the grandchildren private education! It's a lot less painful when it's passive income.Real spread of opinion here. Very interesting indeed.
I'm a teacher, state educated, degree from good university, then 12 years teaching in different state schools (from Satisfactory to Outstanding). Now Head of Department and Housemaster at a decent, but not academically top tier, independent school.
My wife, also state educated, has worked exclusively in independent sector. Our kids' possible futures concern us greatly. We moved to the catchment area of the best state school in our town - at some expense, as my wife is at home with the kids.
Then I successfully applied for my current role.
Previously, I've been a staunch advocate of state education; now the prospect of a reduced independent education beckons, forcing us to make a decision in a few years.
Education is precious, both as an ideal and a vocation, and we still cover the ground discussed above.
Still not sure.
I'm a teacher, state educated, degree from good university, then 12 years teaching in different state schools (from Satisfactory to Outstanding). Now Head of Department and Housemaster at a decent, but not academically top tier, independent school.
My wife, also state educated, has worked exclusively in independent sector. Our kids' possible futures concern us greatly. We moved to the catchment area of the best state school in our town - at some expense, as my wife is at home with the kids.
Then I successfully applied for my current role.
Previously, I've been a staunch advocate of state education; now the prospect of a reduced independent education beckons, forcing us to make a decision in a few years.
Education is precious, both as an ideal and a vocation, and we still cover the ground discussed above.
Still not sure.
AndStilliRise said:
Private school education is approximately 18mths ahead of the state school system. It really is a significant difference, you need to look at the significance of the overall education, for instance the two top schools (Eton, Harrow) will give a world class education. It is not a coincidence that most of them then go to Oxbridge. If money is no object then I would choose Eton for my boys every time. Barring that I would then consider something like Merchant Taylors, HAB's or John Lyon.
Eton is 60k per year.
Harrow is 30k per year.
MTS is 15k per year.
But would then give your boys the best education money can buy. The question is of course is how much are you willing to pay and sacrifice? People like Lewis Hamilton had dads who worked 2 or 3 jobs to pay for their kids karting which is an amazing sacrifice.
My oldest son managed to get into QE Barnet which is one of the best selective grammar schools in the country, if he had not then i would have had to choose one of the previously listed privates (<15k per year) and had to make the relative sacrifices to pay for it.
Hope this helps.
Don't forget that MTS has closed its boarding house so those are day boy fees versus boarding for the other two and Eton isn't that far ahead of Harrow. Boarding at MTS, when the Manor was open was about double day boy rates and ran about 15% discount to Harrow traditionally. Eton is 60k per year.
Harrow is 30k per year.
MTS is 15k per year.
But would then give your boys the best education money can buy. The question is of course is how much are you willing to pay and sacrifice? People like Lewis Hamilton had dads who worked 2 or 3 jobs to pay for their kids karting which is an amazing sacrifice.
My oldest son managed to get into QE Barnet which is one of the best selective grammar schools in the country, if he had not then i would have had to choose one of the previously listed privates (<15k per year) and had to make the relative sacrifices to pay for it.
Hope this helps.
Our 2 kids (9 & 10) are currently in Prep, heading to Senior school over the next couple of years. Fees currently around 25-30K per year, before extra curricular activities like music lessons are added.
Fingers crossed for a scholarship or two to help out.
The eldest is bright as a button, bookworm, top of class, heading for head girl. 2 Instruments. A chip off the ol' block. Thriving.
The youngest is not as bright, middle sets, 2 instruments and sporty. Would not have stood a chance in the state system, lost among the crowd. In the Public system she is looked after, doing better than expected.
I am very happy with the education and pastoral care they are receiving.
I see this as my pension - hopefully they will earn enough between them to see me through to old age
Fingers crossed for a scholarship or two to help out.
The eldest is bright as a button, bookworm, top of class, heading for head girl. 2 Instruments. A chip off the ol' block. Thriving.
The youngest is not as bright, middle sets, 2 instruments and sporty. Would not have stood a chance in the state system, lost among the crowd. In the Public system she is looked after, doing better than expected.
I am very happy with the education and pastoral care they are receiving.
I see this as my pension - hopefully they will earn enough between them to see me through to old age
Sibling Discounts
Sibling discounts are available providing all children are attending at the same time. The sibling discount rates changed in September 2013 but these changes do not affect existing parents.
Child Percentage
1st Child Nil
2nd Child 5%
3rd Child 20%
4th Child 50%
That's not trivial. Not for Twig. I reckon they'd paying HIM for numbers 7 & 8!!
Sibling discounts are available providing all children are attending at the same time. The sibling discount rates changed in September 2013 but these changes do not affect existing parents.
Child Percentage
1st Child Nil
2nd Child 5%
3rd Child 20%
4th Child 50%
That's not trivial. Not for Twig. I reckon they'd paying HIM for numbers 7 & 8!!
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