Crypto Currency Thread

[Behemoth]

CzechItOut said:

So the whole "public ledger" is meaningless waffle, because as you say I can programatically create numerous anonymous wallets at will?

The key to unravelling anonymous wallets are the on & off ramps to fiat. Even BTC wallet tumblers can be unpicked given enough willpower & computing resource. In the early days there was very little KYC.

[Mousem40]

You might not be able to use Bitcoin in its current form, but there are other Stable coins such as ARC that are inflationary, are decentralised and are backed by assets (and not a government entity, as he asserts is the only way a Stable Coin can exist)

[Mousem40]

CzechItOut said:

NickCQ said:

I suppose you can figure out that "gfhjkl54877tfffgh4pjpreog8yo3" has taken your money but how do you go and arrest "gfhjkl54877tfffgh4pjpreog8yo3"?

So the whole "public ledger" is meaningless waffle, because as you say I can programatically create numerous anonymous wallets at will?

I heard an interview recently with a former Federal prosecutor - Kathryn Haun, who said they love criminals making BTC transactions as they are readily traceable. Even the founder of Zcash (Zooko Wilcox) in an interview recently admitted the NSA could still break through their privacy. Even is you use Tor they can still trace you (with difficulty mind)

Bitfury have introduced a software called CrystalBlockchain (investigative analytics for the blockchain) which helps agencies trace transactions on the blockchain to scrape out criminal actors and suspicious behaviour.

[Behemoth]

Mousem40 said:

Even the founder of Zcash (Zooko Wilcox) in an interview recently admitted the NSA could still break through their privacy.

ZCash is flawed because anonymity is optional. The default is off & some wallets don't even support anonymity (it is computationally expensive). It's thus pretty easy to trace those choosing anonymity because there's a very high likelihood of the anonymity in a transaction chain being broken. This provides the evidence needed to pick up the thread on other anonymous transactions & link them. In effect, much less than 1% of ZCash txs are actually anonymous.

[CzechItOut]

Mousem40 said:

I heard an interview recently with a former Federal prosecutor - Kathryn Haun, who said they love criminals making BTC transactions as they are readily traceable. Even the founder of Zcash (Zooko Wilcox) in an interview recently admitted the NSA could still break through their privacy. Even is you use Tor they can still trace you (with difficulty mind)

Bitfury have introduced a software called CrystalBlockchain (investigative analytics for the blockchain) which helps agencies trace transactions on the blockchain to scrape out criminal actors and suspicious behaviour.

So why can't the bitcoin stolen from Mt Gox be returned to it's rightful owners?

[NickCQ]

Mousem40 said:

You might not be able to use Bitcoin in its current form, but there are other Stable coins such as ARC that are inflationary, are decentralised and are backed by assets (and not a government entity, as he asserts is the only way a Stable Coin can exist)

If it’s decentralised, who looks after the assets? What kind of assets are they if it’s not money (which derives its value from the government)?

[98elise]

CzechItOut said:

NickCQ said:

I suppose you can figure out that "gfhjkl54877tfffgh4pjpreog8yo3" has taken your money but how do you go and arrest "gfhjkl54877tfffgh4pjpreog8yo3"?

So the whole "public ledger" is meaningless waffle, because as you say I can programatically create numerous anonymous wallets at will?

gfhjkl54877tfffgh4pjpreog8yo3 can also hold a gun to your head and walk off with your entire wealth.. You can also forget your password and lose all of your wealth.


edtied to change loose to lose!

Edited by 98elise on Thursday 12th April 13:09

[Behemoth]

98elise said:

gfhjkl54877tfffgh4pjpreog8yo3 can also hold a gun to your head and walk off with your entire wealth.. You can also forget your password and loose all of your wealth.

Absolutely right. The Be Your Own Bank mantra isn't without its problems. It's called the $5 wrench flaw.

A Trezor allows you to setup multiple wallets in an attempt to mitigate this. You are threatened & give up your pass phrase to the wallet with a small amount.

[skinnyman]

The $5 wench flaw is a massive one imo. It's ok holding everything yourself, but with transactions being untraceable you open yourself up to this. Wasn't there a bitcoin theft not so long back that involved burgers breaking into a house and forcing someone to transfer their coins?

[Bluedot]

skinnyman said:

The $5 wench flaw is a massive one imo. It's ok holding everything yourself, but with transactions being untraceable you open yourself up to this. Wasn't there a bitcoin theft not so long back that involved burgers breaking into a house and forcing someone to transfer their coins?

[Behemoth]

skinnyman said:

The $5 wench flaw is a massive one imo. It's ok holding everything yourself, but with transactions being untraceable you open yourself up to this. Wasn't there a bitcoin theft not so long back that involved burgers breaking into a house and forcing someone to transfer their coins?

Yes, some bloke who ran a crypto business from a registered address that was his home

[dimots]

skinnyman said:

The $5 wench flaw is a massive one imo. It's ok holding everything yourself, but with transactions being untraceable you open yourself up to this. Wasn't there a bitcoin theft not so long back that involved burgers breaking into a house and forcing someone to transfer their coins?

It's quite easy to make it more secure though. You can memorize a sentence that will unlock your life savings, or you can download it onto a pen drive or Trezor, or print it onto a piece of paper. You can secure that piece of paper or drive wherever and however you like. You could even give it to a bank to look after if you really want to.

Then you can have as many other stores of bitcoin as you want on drives or pieces of paper or in your memory. You can split your savings and store it in multiple places.

You have to do this anyway with Fiat in a bank as if you want your bank savings over £85000 to be secured you need multiple accounts.

[Badda]

If only there were institutions that could look after your money safely away from your house to prevent these thefts, imagine if they also paid you a small amount for the privilege, but also allowed instant access anywhere in the world for a tiny, tiny fee.

[Behemoth]

Badda said:

If only there were institutions that could look after your money safely away from your house to prevent these thefts, imagine if they also paid you a small amount for the privilege, but also allowed instant access anywhere in the world for a tiny, tiny fee.

yes, imagine. Problem is that banks don't allow you instant access & they can and do decide not to do your tx. The fees are not tiny. Show me a bank that will transfer $183,587,227 across 2,314 transactions for less than $991 instantly across the world with no questions. https://twitter.com/BitcoinConfirms

[Badda]

Behemoth said:

Badda said:

If only there were institutions that could look after your money safely away from your house to prevent these thefts, imagine if they also paid you a small amount for the privilege, but also allowed instant access anywhere in the world for a tiny, tiny fee.

yes, imagine. Problem is that banks don't allow you instant access & they can and do decide not to do your tx. The fees are not tiny. Show me a bank that will transfer $183,587,227 across 2,314 transactions for less than $991 instantly across the world with no questions. https://twitter.com/BitcoinConfirms

Show me how to buy a cup of tea in France with a bitcoin. Just as meaningless.

[Behemoth]

Badda said:

Show me how to buy a cup of tea in France with a bitcoin. Just as meaningless.

Small transactions don't belong on the protocol layer. It's a second layer function, currently building up on the Lightning Network (there will be others). Instant transactions of tiny fractions of a penny are being made, as well as enough for your tisane en France once the Café de Paris gets on board (they'll be the last to do so, btw). That granularity of transaction allows for real time streamed payments which in itself opens up a whole host of business possibilities. Hardly meaningless.

[Badda]

Behemoth said:

Badda said:

Show me how to buy a cup of tea in France with a bitcoin. Just as meaningless.

Small transactions don't belong on the protocol layer. It's a second layer function, currently building up on the Lightning Network (there will be others). Instant transactions of tiny fractions of a penny are being made, as well as enough for your tisane en France once the Café de Paris gets on board (they'll be the last to do so, btw). That granularity of transaction allows for real time streamed payments which in itself opens up a whole host of business possibilities. Hardly meaningless.

Meaningless in terms of the discussion at hand, which was an individual protecting himself from aggressive theft of the bitcoins and not businesses wishing to distribute £190m over thousands of smaller transactions.

I bow down to your technical knowledge of the process however, I just see so many faults with it currently.

[NickCQ]

Behemoth said:

bank that will transfer ...with no questions

I still don't really understand why this is desirable. On balance, more economic activity takes place in countries where asking questions is usually designed to stop fraud / criminal activity / tax avoidance. I see that it's attractive if you live in some corrupt kleptocracy, but that's just not the case for most of us.

If the super-rich got into bitcoin in a big way it would be like the Panama Papers on steroids, good luck running a welfare state when you can't raise any revenue.

[Behemoth]

dimots said:

You can use peer to peer lending...no need to create fantasy money.

Back to the lending thing, I love this short history of lending https://elaineou.com/2016/06/17/the-evolution-of-p...

[Behemoth]

NickCQ said:

I still don't really understand why this is desirable. On balance, more economic activity takes place in countries where asking questions is usually designed to stop fraud / criminal activity / tax avoidance. I see that it's attractive if you live in some corrupt kleptocracy, but that's just not the case for most of us.

If the super-rich got into bitcoin in a big way it would be like the Panama Papers on steroids, good luck running a welfare state when you can't raise any revenue.

It's a desirable thing by many for very legitimate reasons. Yes, you're right that the primary use case here is not us in our comfy western homes (though it was only a handful of years ago that Cypriots & Greeks had capital controls whilst in their comfy western homes).

Criminals will always find a way to circumvent legal processes. Yes, they may well use crypto. Instead of drug money being secretly laundered via bank teller windows specially enlarged to fit suitcases of dollars in Mexico, there'll be a public blockchain trail.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/12/11/hs...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/dec/14/h...

Taxes to pay for the welfare state are still due regardless & tax avoidance will remain a criminal offence. Forensic accounting measures against avoidance will evolve to accommodate new technologies.