Crypto Currency Thread

[Condi]

dimots said:

Well, I don't know...but I can see that bitcoin is working, that it is a solid platform for innovation and that it remains neutral in a world where the money market is politicised. I can see a bright future for bitcoin in many ways...I can also imagine a future without banks. In fact I find it harder to imagine a future with them! More consumers are choosing non-bank options for managing money - Paypal, Skrill, Neteller, Apple Pay, Google Pay, TransferWise, etc... These kinds of companies expect the banks to work with them but there's a high chance the banks are going to get f**ked up by hackers in the near future and then they'll lose even more trust than they did in 2009. I think it will be a process of erosion with the banks...they'll end up haemhorraging so much money that they won't be able to cover it up any longer and then....opportunities for bitcoin!

Groats anology was crap let us not dwell on that too long

I dont see the world quite like you do at all....

Bitcoin is working? As what? Its not working as an investment asset (price is too volatile), its not working as a currency (nobody uses it to buy anything), and its not working as anything else! Unless you think differently?

And do you understand the differences between PayPal/Apple Pay etc and your bank? A bank's job is to protect your money. Where do you think PayPal put your money when you get paid to PayPal? Thats right... a bank!! So its not as if consumers dont want banks, consumers need banks and banks serve a very important function.


£30 million stolen the other day from an exchange. Im not sure how many more examples we need to see before people understand what a bank does and why they're useful?



This thread is rapidly turning into a tin-hat alternative reality..... My short is still in profit though.

[Behemoth]

Condi said:

I dont see the world quite like you do at all....

Bitcoin is working? As what? Its not working as an investment asset (price is too volatile), its not working as a currency (nobody uses it to buy anything), and its not working as anything else! Unless you think differently?

What you seem to be lacking is vision and comprehension of how technology develops, scales and achieves adoption over long time frames. You can't see beyond your own short (good luck with it btw).

It doesn't matter where Bitcoin is today. What matters is technical and infrastructural progress & these are clearly evident.

[dimots]

Condi said:

I dont see the world quite like you do at all....

Bitcoin is working? As what? Its not working as an investment asset (price is too volatile), its not working as a currency (nobody uses it to buy anything), and its not working as anything else! Unless you think differently?

And do you understand the differences between PayPal/Apple Pay etc and your bank? A bank's job is to protect your money. Where do you think PayPal put your money when you get paid to PayPal? Thats right... a bank!! So its not as if consumers dont want banks, consumers need banks and banks serve a very important function.


£30 million stolen the other day from an exchange. Im not sure how many more examples we need to see before people understand what a bank does and why they're useful?



This thread is rapidly turning into a tin-hat alternative reality..... My short is still in profit though.

You clearly don't see the world like me. And no doubt you find it hard to understand how a digital currency first championed by role playing card trading super geeks became a serious challenge to the world's banking system. However, I am not here to convince you that I am right nor am I here to educate you on bitcoin, I am just here to express my own views and it's nice that you have noticed how different they are to yours.

[Some Gump]

Dimots, how can you have such a low opinion on the security of banks (who you say will lose massively to hackers), but such a high opinion of bitcoin (which has a massive history of constant large losses to hackers)?
Card game playing geekery aside, I'm also at a loss on how BTC is a genuine alternative to a bank. I can't get paid for services in it, can't use it to buy goods and services, can't store wealth in it and certainly can't get a mortgage in it. I'm still completely tied to a bank (as is every other normal working citizen) and therefore can't understand the "serious rival to the global banking system" bit!

[jonamv8]

Well isn't crypto boring of late!! More interest in the markets which I've given up investing in for a while to concentrate on core business after hammering it for a while.

I've got a few grand in ADA Cardano, keep checking every few weeks and reading the same old news but absolutely nothing of note seems to be happening to the price.

When do we think the fun may start again? We need the lambo dreamers back pumping their hard earned in. Wheres the hairdressers with the inheritance to lose. Why is my Mum not talking about Bitcoin anymore?!

Boring boring boring....

Anyone got any opinion on ADA they want to share? My reason for investing was that I had a few grand in 'free' dosh courtesy of the above hairdressers and lambo dreamers, I couldn't take it out of the exchange due to withdrawal limts as I'd pulled a bit back out so looked to stick it somewhere to keep me in the crypto game. I read up on the lower value coins and liked the sounds of the team behind Cardano, the basis of the tech etc so I put it in. It was hardly a thought out decision and would I have stuck a few grand of my hard earned in there - NOPE!!!

PS - I've nothing against hairdressers or lambo dreamers just read articles on both re: bitcoin and they have become my stereotype

[Behemoth]

Some Gump said:

low opinion on the security of banks (who you say will lose massively to hackers), but such a high opinion of bitcoin (which has a massive history of constant large losses to hackers)?
Card game playing geekery aside, I'm also at a loss on how BTC is a genuine alternative to a bank. I can't get paid for services in it, can't use it to buy goods and services, can't store wealth in it and certainly can't get a mortgage in it. I'm still completely tied to a bank (as is every other normal working citizen) and therefore can't understand the "serious rival to the global banking system" bit!

Banks and crypto exchanges have lost money to hackers for years. https://www.hackmageddon.com/category/security/cyb... . Note that this does not include undeclared bank hacks which are known to be widespread.

Get this, Bitcoin has never been hacked. For 9 years its blockchain has run and nobody has been able to penetrate it, nobody has been able to generate a double spend on it. People try all the time. Here's an image from today showing hackers trying to attack a Bitcoin dev's node. That line highlighted shows someone trying to create 234,512 BTC out of thin air. It's constant, but all hacks on Bitcoin have failed so far. This makes it one of the most resilient protocols and pieces of software on the planet. Show me public facing financial software that has the same proven and transparent resilience.



The fact that a normal working citizen feels they can't use Bitcoin today is irrelevant. Look to the future, it's still very early days.

[Condi]

Behemoth said:

Banks and crypto exchanges have lost money to hackers for years. https://www.hackmageddon.com/category/security/cyb... . Note that this does not include undeclared bank hacks which are known to be widespread.

Get this, Bitcoin has never been hacked. For 9 years its blockchain has run and nobody has been able to penetrate it, nobody has been able to generate a double spend on it.

The fact that a normal working citizen feels they can't use Bitcoin today is irrelevant. Look to the future, it's still very early days.

1) Banks do not have massive undeclared hacks hidden in closets. They, by law, have to be very open about this kind of stuff so to believe that there is some hidden agenda is mad.

2) Agreed, the chain itself has never been hacked. Yet the people owning bitcoins have lost hundreds of millions of dollars worth. For the user it matters not that the blockchain is in tact, what matters is that the £10k they invested has vanished with 0 hope of it coming back.

3) I keep hearing this 'look to the future' and 'the future will be very different to what it is today', which are fine, but if the future will look different why are you investing today in technology which you agree isnt the future?! How many companies formed before the dot com bust are still relevant today?

[dimots]

It’s not about companies.

How many websites still use HTML? How much of the internet is founded on Paul Baran’s Packet Switching concept of the 1960s?

You need to think of bitcoin as a standard not as a company or a product.

[James_B]

Gecko1978 said:

what if you wanted to avoid irate risk Crypto may do that in the future. We don't know but it "feels" like geni out of the bottle time. I.dont see it replacing fiat but I see it offering another option

There will always be a price to let someone use the money that you have, but that you do not need to use at the moment. This is all that interest is, and it will exist in the crypto world too.

A very large part of the interest rate that people pay is the risk premium, the amount extra over the risk-free rate to compensate you for the risk that you do not get your principal back, let alone the interest.

On a long-dated death the other side has to be bulletproof for a deal to work, and I don’t see how a random name on the web will be able to offer that, whereas the stablished names can.

[James_B]

Behemoth said:

What you seem to be lacking is vision and comprehension of how technology develops, scales and achieves adoption over long time frames. You can't see beyond your own short (good luck with it btw).

It doesn't matter where Bitcoin is today. What matters is technical and infrastructural progress & these are clearly evident.

Why do so many of the people trying to pump it sound like conspiracy theorists?

“Wake up sheeple, you just can’t see things like I do! Come on, look at my sweeping vision of truth!”

The frequent derision towars people whose job is actually being paid millions to trade currencies is strange too. It is a red flag to me that the prophets tend not to work in banking, despite apparently having such amazing forecasting abilities.

[Condi]

dimots said:

It’s not about companies.

How many websites still use HTML? How much of the internet is founded on Paul Baran’s Packet Switching concept of the 1960s?

You need to think of bitcoin as a standard not as a company or a product.

But you're buying Bitcoin?! You're not buying the idea, you're not buying the method of transaction, you're buying a single specific product which is totally akin to buying a company or product.

If XRP, Litecoin, or any other coin is the one which is yet to be released is the one everyone in 20 years will be using, by definition your Bitcoin will be worth nothing.....

[Behemoth]

James_B said:

The frequent derision towars people whose job is actually being paid millions to trade currencies is strange too. It is a red flag to me that the prophets tend not to work in banking, despite apparently having such amazing forecasting abilities.

There is no derision on my part, James. A better red flag may be for those that don't work in technology and don't understand basic concepts like protocols and scaling. Another red flag is those who think the status quo will exist for eternity. These will be the same people (or their contemporaries of like minds) who could not predict the ascent of online banking and the demise of the local retail branch. That was very clear to me back in the mid 90s talking to banking friends. We might go further back and see who amongst the stock trading community foresaw the impact electronic trading and then HF algos. Etc.

[Behemoth]

Condi said:

But you're buying Bitcoin?! You're not buying the idea, you're not buying the method of transaction, you're buying a single specific product which is totally akin to buying a company or product.

If XRP, Litecoin, or any other coin is the one which is yet to be released is the one everyone in 20 years will be using, by definition your Bitcoin will be worth nothing.....

Just by writing that, you are revealing how little you know about these.

Back in the 90s, the bet was all about TCP/IP vs proprietary protocols and networks, not about websites. Even TCP/IP itself was the subject of a protocol battle vs OSI a decade before the web showed up. https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/cyberspace/... . I put my money behind TCP/IP and built businesses on it because I did my research.

[Behemoth]

Condi said:

Agreed, the chain itself has never been hacked. Yet the people owning bitcoins have lost hundreds of millions of dollars worth. For the user it matters not that the blockchain is in tact, what matters is that the £10k they invested has vanished with 0 hope of it coming back.

No, what matters today is that the chain has not been hacked. Better user experiences and better infrastructure layering onto that chain comes later.

Condi said:

if the future will look different why are you investing today in technology which you agree isnt the future?! How many companies formed before the dot com bust are still relevant today?

I'm not investing in a company, I'm investing in a protocol. Nobody owns this, just as nobody owns the internet protocol TCP/IP. The future will certainly look different and I might have many aspects of it wrong, but one thing I am sure about is that there will only be one protocol carrying significant value. That protocol will be one that's the hardest to attack and has the longest chain. It will also be the one that has the least governance and the simplest implementation. If something comes along with those qualities to usurp Bitcoin, I'm fine jumping ship. Haven't seen it yet, nowhere near.

[ReaperCushions]

dimots said:

It’s not about companies.

How many websites still use HTML? How much of the internet is founded on Paul Baran’s Packet Switching concept of the 1960s?

You need to think of bitcoin as a standard not as a company or a product.

Surely Blockchain is the standard and Bitcoin an implementation of that standard?

[Condi]

ReaperCushions said:

dimots said:

It’s not about companies.

How many websites still use HTML? How much of the internet is founded on Paul Baran’s Packet Switching concept of the 1960s?

You need to think of bitcoin as a standard not as a company or a product.

Surely Blockchain is the standard and Bitcoin an implementation of that standard?

Its not worth applying logic to this thread any more.

[Behemoth]

ReaperCushions said:

Surely Blockchain is the standard and Bitcoin an implementation of that standard?

That's a very commonly held fallacy. But the blockchain can't stand alone from Bitcoin. Here's why:

The blockchain is simply a set of data blocks that are each linked with hashes to refer one to the next (a hash in computer science is the collapse of a large set of data into a unique small set of characters that can be used to represent it). A blockchain is not innovative. It's a very inefficient way to structure data. You wouldn't want to use this kind of database unless you really had to.

But if you add this chaining to a method that removes the need to trust others, you head towards something very innovative indeed. The reason a blockchain is used in Bitcoin is to achieve decentralisation. It's at the heart of being able to remove trust. Without a need for decentralisation, there is simply no point in having a blockchain. You are far better off using a replicated database. Way cheaper, faster, more efficient.

Back to the trust issue. You can remove trust if you can agree on rules about how to validate transactions (and thus the blocks) in situations where people are potentially at odds with each other. Exchanging money is exactly this kind of potentially adversarial situation. In Bitcoin, these consensus rules get implemented by a competition held between those helping to validate the transactions. That competition is proof of work. This kind of competition for proof prevents any chance of double spending (which, put simply, is cheating by copy-pasting the same Bitcoin to spend it in two or more places at once).

All this together is the innovation. Blockchain is not the standard. It is Bitcoin that is the standard. You need the intrinsic, valuable asset to make it all hang together. A blockchain alone is just a crappy, slow & expensive database.

[James_B]

Behemoth said:

There is no derision on my part, James. A better red flag may be for those that don't work in technology and don't understand basic concepts like protocols and scaling. Another red flag is those who think the status quo will exist for eternity. These will be the same people (or their contemporaries of like minds) who could not predict the ascent of online banking and the demise of the local retail branch. That was very clear to me back in the mid 90s talking to banking friends. We might go further back and see who amongst the stock trading community foresaw the impact electronic trading and then HF algos. Etc.

So, with your vision of what will take off, you are worth tens of millions now, or is your ability to prophesise where we are going a relatively recent phenomenon?

The thing is that many people remember after the event how wise they were, they remember the hits, and happily ignore the misses. Has your special vision been tested, have you demonstrated it, or do you just have a feeling that you are seeing something that people like me miss?

[Behemoth]

James_B said:

So, with your vision of what will take off, you are worth tens of millions now, or is your ability to prophesise where we are going a relatively recent phenomenon?

The thing is that many people remember after the event how wise they were, they remember the hits, and happily ignore the misses. Has your special vision been tested, have you demonstrated it, or do you just have a feeling that you are seeing something that people like me miss?

Yes, I've made technology calls in the past that have completely changed my life and made me meaningful money. But that doesn't matter. I'm no seer and have no special qualities. Like many, I just read up on stuff until I understand things properly before making appropriate risk calls. I enjoy reading well constructed contrarian views but I'm not too fond of ad hominem attacks.

This space is complex to understand and easy to trip over. All I do on this thread is try and correct factual inaccuracies, point to evidence I've come across & hope some have enough interest to read further to make their own minds up rather than repeat cliches & received wisdom.

[Condi]

Behemoth said:

This space is complex to understand and easy to trip over. All I do on this thread is try and correct factual inaccuracies, point to evidence I've come across & hope some have enough interest to read further to make their own minds up rather than repeat cliches & received wisdom.

You say you point to evidence, and inspire people to read further, which is great but I dont see much if any evidence, I see things written by people with huge vested interest. Most of the evidence on things like energy usage, transaction speed and cost, volatility, number of payments made, regulatory interest etc (ie hard facts) suggest it isnt, and wont work as a currency. Your papers written about how it might look, and how it could be used, are not evidence, they are simply ideas, theories or suggestions which are yet to be proved.