Cryptocurrency - where's the actual value?

[Benjaminpalma]

Ginge R said:

I know a couple of very well informed people who understand much more about this than I ever will. Notwithstanding that, there are tens of millions of ignorant punters who see rising values and just jump onboard the latest thing. Today, the regulator issued a notice about ICO/crypto. When you see Paris Hilton pushing them, you know the world's gawn mad.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-bitcoin...

http://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/news/fca-warn...

Who needs Paris Hilton can you read the lunacy writ large in this thread?

[Behemoth]

Benjaminpalma said:

Who needs Paris Hilton can you read the lunacy writ large in this thread?

Most here are explaining their views carefully, considerately and intelligently to you. An ad hominem attack rarely helps a debate. The minutiae of whether a tax has to be denominated in a currency for that currency to be viable or why/whether a builder of currency infrastructure should be rewarded are hardly lunacy.

[Benjaminpalma]

Behemoth said:

Most here are explaining their views carefully, considerately and intelligently to you. An ad hominem attack rarely helps a debate. The minutiae of whether a tax has to be denominated in a currency for that currency to be viable or why/whether a builder of currency infrastructure should be rewarded are hardly lunacy.

Oh come on - I've thrown down the gauntlet enough times about providing any evidence that Bitcoin has any substance to it. No one has. God knows I've hunted high and low and come up with nothing. Just reams and reams about its qualities.

[Behemoth]

Benjaminpalma said:

Oh come on - I've thrown down the gauntlet enough times about providing any evidence that Bitcoin has any substance to it. No one has. God knows I've hunted high and low and come up with nothing. Just reams and reams about its qualities.

It seems that, for you, "substance" and "value" must ultimately be defined and controlled by a government. But by its very definition, Bitcoin falls outside governmental control. So there is no squaring your circle. We can have a discussion about what fiat money is, what legal tender is, what currency is and how these interplay and intersect today and how they might in the future. But I think there is no way we can progress this debate, given your worldview.

[TooMany2cvs]

Behemoth said:

It seems that, for you, "substance" and "value" must ultimately be defined and controlled by a government.

Not at all.

Simply exist, and be tied intrinsically in order to provide something concrete on which to hang it, other than hype.

Corporate bonds and equities are a fine example - they're not tied to a government, but they're backed by the value of the business. They rise as the business rises, they fall as the business falls, they tank when the business tanks.

[Behemoth]

TooMany2cvs said:

Not at all.

Simply exist, and be tied intrinsically in order to provide something concrete on which to hang it, other than hype.

Corporate bonds and equities are a fine example - they're not tied to a government, but they're backed by the value of the business. They rise as the business rises, they fall as the business falls, they tank when the business tanks.

Does gold have value? What hanging concrete is gold suspended from?

[TooMany2cvs]

Behemoth said:

Does gold have value?

Absolutely. It's quite in demand for jewellery, in case you'd not noticed, as well as industrial purposes.

[egomeister]

Behemoth said:

Benjaminpalma said:

Oh come on - I've thrown down the gauntlet enough times about providing any evidence that Bitcoin has any substance to it. No one has. God knows I've hunted high and low and come up with nothing. Just reams and reams about its qualities.

It seems that, for you, "substance" and "value" must ultimately be defined and controlled by a government. But by its very definition, Bitcoin falls outside governmental control. So there is no squaring your circle. We can have a discussion about what fiat money is, what legal tender is, what currency is and how these interplay and intersect today and how they might in the future. But I think there is no way we can progress this debate, given your worldview.

Well said. People have made considered arguments, yet they have been written off as "lunacy".

I honestly can't see the conceptual gulf between a crypto and a conventional currency that some posters do, but that's perhaps because I don't ascribe the same value on government control. There have been a couple of interesting points made - I hadn't considered the role of taxation etc as something that can give value to a currency.

I think there is also an important distinction to make between whether something like bitcoin currently has a value to match it's price, and/or if it has the potential to in the future. My thought is that I currently don't see the value, but if it gains traction as a means of exchange then current prices will seem a bargain - it all depends on the uptake.

[Behemoth]

TooMany2cvs said:

Absolutely. It's quite in demand for jewellery, in case you'd not noticed, as well as industrial purposes.

Gold's use valuation emphatically does not match its price. Jewellery use is either ephemeral or used as a proxy for its store of value. Its industrial use is tiny. In another world, it wouldn't much matter if gold was worth 1p per gram or £1mln per gram for industrial uses.

[Willhire89]

I think it would be really useful if someone could help me with compiling these lists, I have made a start.

I have some BTC - what can I buy directly currently?

1. Illegal stuff off the dark web
2. ??
3. ??

I have some USD - what can I buy directly currently?

1. Anything I damn well want

[Behemoth]

Willhire89 said:

I think it would be really useful if someone could help me with compiling these lists, I have made a start.

I have some BTC - what can I buy directly currently?

1. Illegal stuff off the dark web
2. ??
3. ??

I have some USD - what can I buy directly currently?

1. Anything I damn well want

With BTC I can buy pretty much anything on Amazon via purse.io. Since I'm in the software business, loads of stuff is available from many retailers for direct BTC purchase this evening. Legitimate goods and services.

otoh, I have a few $ notes here and I'd find it absolutely impossible to buy anything with them without a lot of effort, even tomorrow in the daytime.

Edited by Behemoth on Tuesday 12th September 19:32

[x5x3]

and don't forget - even gold has to be mined

being a bit more serious - does anyone have any statistics on what percentage of gold goes into "uses" e.g. jewellery and what remains a "store of value"?

[fishseller]

I keep hearing about Bit coin millionaires investing in the beginning and now worth fortunes Has anyone actually exchanged bit coin or any other crypto Profits for actual hard cash ? and say bought a house or Ferrari ?

[egomeister]

x5x3 said:

and don't forget - even gold has to be mined

being a bit more serious - does anyone have any statistics on what percentage of gold goes into "uses" e.g. jewellery and what remains a "store of value"?

48% Jewellery, 8% technology, 26% coins and bars, 8% ETFs, 9% central banks (yes, i know that doesn't add up to 100%, I rounded the values...)

So minimal utility use, most demand is from investment/discretionary purchases

https://www.gold.org/research/gold-demand-trends/g...

[Behemoth]

x5x3 said:

and don't forget - even gold has to be mined
being a bit more serious - does anyone have any statistics on what percentage of gold goes into "uses" e.g. jewellery and what remains a "store of value"?

iirc ~50% jewellery, 20% in national vaults, 20% investment, 10% industrial but I don't recall whether that's by volume or value - sorry I don't have the source it's just a factlet from the top of my head. Gold would cost an awful lot less than 10% of its current value if it had only ever been used for useful stuff (like coating electrical components). That's because not nearly so much would have already been mined and access to it would be fairly easy.

[Behemoth]

egomeister said:

48% Jewellery, 8% technology, 26% coins and bars, 8% ETFs, 9% central banks

Cross post, but it's nice to see I wasn't far off

[fishseller]

Benjaminpalma said:

Behemoth said:

Most here are explaining their views carefully, considerately and intelligently to you. An ad hominem attack rarely helps a debate. The minutiae of whether a tax has to be denominated in a currency for that currency to be viable or why/whether a builder of currency infrastructure should be rewarded are hardly lunacy.

Oh come on - I've thrown down the gauntlet enough times about providing any evidence that Bitcoin has any substance to it. No one has. God knows I've hunted high and low and come up with nothing. Just reams and reams about its qualities.

Indeed
I keep hearing about Bit coin millionaires investing in the beginning and now worth fortunes Has anyone of them actually exchanged bit coin or any other crypto Profits for actual hard cash ? and say bought a house or Ferrari ?

[bloomen]

fishseller said:

Indeed
I keep hearing about Bit coin millionaires investing in the beginning and now worth fortunes Has anyone of them actually exchanged bit coin or any other crypto Profits for actual hard cash ? and say bought a house or Ferrari ?

Er, me. I just bought a wee house purely from crypto profits. The majority is staying in there. If I price the house in my initial outlay it cost £280.

It's not exactly difficult to liquidate. There are exchanges and OTC traders who'll be delighted to take it off your hands. Volumes are in the hundreds of millions of dollars daily.

[fishseller]

bloomen said:

fishseller said:

Indeed
I keep hearing about Bit coin millionaires investing in the beginning and now worth fortunes Has anyone of them actually exchanged bit coin or any other crypto Profits for actual hard cash ? and say bought a house or Ferrari ?

Er, me. I just bought a wee house purely from crypto profits. The majority is staying in there. If I price the house in my initial outlay it cost £280.

It's not exactly difficult to liquidate. There are exchanges and OTC traders who'll be delighted to take it off your hands. Volumes are in the hundreds of millions of dollars daily.

nice one

[bloomen]

fishseller said:

nice one

It took just under four years to get there with plenty of drama in between. I'm not so sure people piling in now will make giant returns, but it totally depends on what you gambled on.

You could've bought ETH for about 25p only a couple of years ago. Now it's hundreds. It's hard to figure out how much upside is left with the big projects and the rest is pure luck, as it was in my case pretty much.