Mortgage : Lender down valued a huge amount, advice.
Discussion
Sarnie said:
Walk away.
In my opinion..............I wouldn't be so overly keen throw money at this property/scenario, to inherit the problems the vendor has had trying to sell this for the last few years........
I think they are stubborn, and have decided its worth 550, 495 which it isnt, however if its 465 I think the prices ok. In my opinion..............I wouldn't be so overly keen throw money at this property/scenario, to inherit the problems the vendor has had trying to sell this for the last few years........
The house will always be half an Edwardian mansion, but we cant afford a whole one, and really like the spaces it provides.
Casa1862 said:
This is where the agent needs to earn his/her worth. What are they saying?
Well yes. I think the are nice, but also not the greatest Estate Agents.The buyer is clearly suborn as an ox, they have little prospect of selling it to anyone else, and an onward purchase that hinges on the sale, personally I think they are mad and the vendor has basically said the same. But who knows. We are going to look at a few other houses over the weekend I think, but equally its been three months now and you do get emotionally attached. Its a nice, house
Stella Tortoise said:
I might have the wrong end of the stick having just skim read the thread.
Are you saying that the valuer has said it's only worth £380k but you are trying to find a way to make it worth more so that you can pay more for the place?
No. Home buyers and second lender values up at 465k, but first lender down valued to 380k.Are you saying that the valuer has said it's only worth £380k but you are trying to find a way to make it worth more so that you can pay more for the place?
First lender was find for affordability, but the second lender, mixed for other reasons, is 20k short of valuation.
Hence we are trying to get the vendor to split the valuation.
Daniel
DonkeyApple said:
Let the EA know your offer stands for two weeks and that you’re off looking at other properties this weekend. It’s up to the agent now to try and get his commission.
It’s a royal pain but you’ll find another property and when you do you’ll fall in love with that one and praise the Lord that you didn’t buy that overpriced thing from the crazy vendors, especially after you drive past one day and see that the people who did buy it are having to replace the roof.
The markets not going anywhere and the vendors need you far more than you need them. Give it a shot sweating them out but in the meantime get on with your lives.
It's a fair angle to take, and a lot of me would love to play hard ball with them.It’s a royal pain but you’ll find another property and when you do you’ll fall in love with that one and praise the Lord that you didn’t buy that overpriced thing from the crazy vendors, especially after you drive past one day and see that the people who did buy it are having to replace the roof.
The markets not going anywhere and the vendors need you far more than you need them. Give it a shot sweating them out but in the meantime get on with your lives.
Truth is however we have been looking for 8 months including two other houses this weekend and this is the house we like most. For reasons we may never know fully, or mortgage for it has been a pain, and to get a mortgage offer from this application rules out waiting two weeks as I understand it. A few days, maybe Tuesday, else we have to revisit it.
It's also been an emotional rollercoaster for the pair of us and we're just about ready to get off. The roof was replaced 20 years ago and appears sound. I'm going to push the Estate Agent this afternoon and see what they say, but ultimately we can pay the original offer price and still think it's worth it to us. Even with the potential risk of it being harder to get a buyer if we do come to sell it in time.
Daniel
Fast and Spurious said:
It's not madness though, sorry to be blunt but you've created this problem by offering 465k in the first case. How was that OK and achievable back then but not now?
Dermot O'Logical said:
Mortgage lenders want a valuation based on the price which could be achieved at auction, on a forced sale.
It's not rocket surgery.
Yeah, both valid points. Obviously when we made the offer we didn't expect an 85k down valuation on our first lender. That's what's rattled it. I have no doubt the 'value' is closer to 465 than 380, what some might pay with time. But also that a forced sale could net a lot less.It's not rocket surgery.
We understand the lenders are rightly risk averse and would like a larger deposit, fairly really. But also a potential future risk and bargaining chip. If the risk is negligible, you would be mad not to ask.
Daniel
surveyor said:
It’s not a valid point. Lenders want market value valuations. Think about what happened with yours. They lost the lending. That’s not good business and constant down values will be spotted...
Yeah, I mean obviously they want good business and not undue risk. Where they and the surveyor draw that line is an issue for the market, customer, and there business. But it also is where it is?My posts earlier crossed with your last one and I didn't hit refresh, but I'll read it now.
Edited by dhutch on Monday 30th April 09:03
surveyor said:
I read the usual rubbish on this thread... Time to add some facts
1. Valuers have been told to value at auction value / downvalue etc. Nope. not ever. Valuers are told to provide Market Value - this is an RICS definition assuming willing buyer and seller at the end of the marketing period...
...It never ceases to amaze me when borrowers question down valuations, without stopping to consider whether the Surveyor is right....
....The difference was that he was a staff valuer with company PI, whereas I was a consultant on my own PI....
Fair enough. Interesting information. And it's good that lenders are not asking for overly harsh valuations, if not a surprise to me. However obviously if the surveyor is insuraning themselves they will air to caution at times.1. Valuers have been told to value at auction value / downvalue etc. Nope. not ever. Valuers are told to provide Market Value - this is an RICS definition assuming willing buyer and seller at the end of the marketing period...
...It never ceases to amaze me when borrowers question down valuations, without stopping to consider whether the Surveyor is right....
....The difference was that he was a staff valuer with company PI, whereas I was a consultant on my own PI....
I guess also even 'market value' has a timescale, if it's been on two years at 495/485 even for a larger and more character house that's a while. If it's also been on a 550 for 18months before that.
We absolutely are questioning if the surveyor had a point at 380k. But then ive also had a nice chat to the local guy who did our homebuyers.
Maybe the second guy from L&G just saw it differently.
What do you think about the fact the first valuer incorrectly had it down as on an unmaked unadopted road? Didn't even mention this in the response to the valuation challenge?
Daniel
surveyor said:
Market Value assumes at the end of the marketing period - so the time on the market is irrelevant. Only Special Assumptions that a client will for would mean the valuer takes into account a restricted marketing period.
Adopted/Unadopted Road? Value difference depends on state of road. Locally to us was a road that was a wreck - eventually the residents sorted it - now they pay into a fund at £20 a year for maintenance. Not really value significant.... -especially as unadopted roads tend to end up with nicer houses in my experience.
Fair. Just seems odd that they would down value 85k, with the only reason being lack of comparables (fair, to a point) and that it's on an un-made and un-addopted road (which isn't isn't).Adopted/Unadopted Road? Value difference depends on state of road. Locally to us was a road that was a wreck - eventually the residents sorted it - now they pay into a fund at £20 a year for maintenance. Not really value significant.... -especially as unadopted roads tend to end up with nicer houses in my experience.
Then after we challenge the valuation including proof it's a well kept publicly maintained road, to not even make any reference to that mistake. Who knows.
Daniel
coljoh148 said:
A neigh on half a million pound house requiring a lot of work is not something you want to be taking on if you are having to get the bean counter out.
Borrowing from this parent for this and that one for that and if this happens and the sister can do such and such hopefully within 3yrs time is just bonkers.
I firmly believe life's to be enjoyed and not tied to paying for a home, don't push yourself into financial hardship for the sake of an old period house.
Obviously anything at nearly half a million is a reasonable punt. You do your research, get some checks carried out, do some sums, and then buy it and it becomes yours.Borrowing from this parent for this and that one for that and if this happens and the sister can do such and such hopefully within 3yrs time is just bonkers.
I firmly believe life's to be enjoyed and not tied to paying for a home, don't push yourself into financial hardship for the sake of an old period house.
However as said, the right spot is not buying the house, but buying it ahead of getting the money from selling our current two properties, specifically my house which has a reasonable amount of equity in it.
While it needs a fair amount of work to bring it up to modern expectations it would also live in with no work at all for years. It's not a showroom spec Barrat box, but that is why we like it.
Daniel
Yeah, there has been mention earlier that surveyors can get scared if they see 90% LTV, which on one level you can see but on another feels like them trying to do the lenders job not their own.
Our lenders detailed our personally affordability, the rates offered, and the LTV ratio, before we had selected the house let alone surveyed it.
However we where originally 90% LTV which is what the lenders will give, but on the second application this was 86% having putting the extra to get over the affordability limits.
As said, I would love to play hard ball with the seller, however they are never going to sell it for 430k which I wouldn't either, and short of throwing this mortgage offer away and or risking loosing the house, its not an option. Obviously their will be other houses, but in 6-8 months of looking its the best we have found, including everything which is currently on the market this side of 500k.
Never easy to know, but personally, I feel the house is worth going for and worth being fairly tight for cash for a few months while we buy one and then sell the others. We have said we will do the original 465k/ Having already said we can do 455k its 'only' another 10k. Roll on the next hurdle.
Daniel
Our lenders detailed our personally affordability, the rates offered, and the LTV ratio, before we had selected the house let alone surveyed it.
However we where originally 90% LTV which is what the lenders will give, but on the second application this was 86% having putting the extra to get over the affordability limits.
As said, I would love to play hard ball with the seller, however they are never going to sell it for 430k which I wouldn't either, and short of throwing this mortgage offer away and or risking loosing the house, its not an option. Obviously their will be other houses, but in 6-8 months of looking its the best we have found, including everything which is currently on the market this side of 500k.
Never easy to know, but personally, I feel the house is worth going for and worth being fairly tight for cash for a few months while we buy one and then sell the others. We have said we will do the original 465k/ Having already said we can do 455k its 'only' another 10k. Roll on the next hurdle.
Daniel
sc0tt said:
Can we have a link to the property?
I've held off that while everything is still up in the air, impossible to know who is watching the thread or tracking traffic to the listing and while the risk is low i don't want to add to that.I can PM the link to individuals, but will also post it publicly once we have confirmation where we are with this.
Thanks Daniel
Always. In 2011 I took out a tracker, which has been great up to now, very happy. But for this we have opted for a 5yr fixed given the current state of the nation, by 2023 hopefully we will have made a reasonable dent on it and maybe even for the world to have found its feet again.
Mortgage offer arrived in my email just, hard copy in the post to the solicitor in told.
Daniel
Mortgage offer arrived in my email just, hard copy in the post to the solicitor in told.
Daniel
WhiskyDisco said:
OP, I have always been told to buy a house with your head, and not your heart.
Yeah, I mean certainly it's too big a purchase to wing it. Not only does the house appeal to our hearts as a nice house, it also ticks the boxes for what we want in a house. Rooms, sizes, location, garage, plot, access to motorway, commute, etc. in a way which others do not.Daniel
WhiskyDisco said:
I do understand. It's just the valuation that set alarm bells ringing. If it weren't for that it would be a no brainer (a.k.a. all heart!)
If it weren't for the first low mortgage valuation it would be absolutely perfect for both head and heart.The homebuyers is on the money, as is the second mortgage valuation with the second lender.
Mehahhh
Daniel
ooid said:
Well, they are not always correct.
... OP, I think your estate agent and surveyor needs to sort this out. ..... It's either they could not do their research, or something wrong with the valuation....
I think that is fair enough in general. And I would agree that the estate agent leaves much to be desired, they are a bit of a 'pile it high sell it cheap' outlet and don't have the man power to look into the valuation for us at all.... OP, I think your estate agent and surveyor needs to sort this out. ..... It's either they could not do their research, or something wrong with the valuation....
However on the flip side, with two of three valuations valuing up (home buyers and second lender valuation) they are just going to say the one low valuation (first lender) is wrong. I cant as such fault that, and its what I would be saying to myself if I was the vendor too, assuming there is not past history of low valuations on the property.
Very hard to know, As said, assuming other potential buyers are not going to have more issues than otherwise expected normal, the house is a fair buy at the price we originally offered and have reverted to now.
Currently waiting for the solicitors copy of the mortgage offer to arrive with them in the post, send first class on Tuesday, didn't arrive today. Apparently they always go out, but Accord don't email them and the copy I have isn't the same as the sols get. Sigh.
Daniel
TonyRPH said:
If your estate agent was worth anything and wanted the sale badly enough, surely they'd put themselves out to get an accurate valuation?
You would have thought so, but sadly the agents appear to have one valuer, who is pleasant but can't seem to do anything but value houses to put on the market, due to time constraints if nothing else. The vendor is stubborn and clearly not bothered about time frames or even loosing their onward purchase. Two years in I bet the estate agents are fed up with the vendor too, how much effort do you put in to get a sale? The agent works for the seller not me, so if the seller is an arse....... not trying to justify their in action. Just explain how I see it.
TonyRPH said:
Sounds to me like you're being walked right over, because you're so desperate to own this house.
Always interested in peoples thoughts, it's why I posted the thread. However I think that's a bit harsh.We're putting some leg work in to make it happen, because the house ticks a lot of boxes and we like it.
The original price offered was a price we where happy with, for the house we would get.
The down valuation isn't our fault, but while we may never get to the bottom of it, may also not be theirs either.
Who knows. Is there anything wrong with liking a house and putting work in to get it?
We don't want a new build, or a modern house, or to live on a busy street, or in an overly rural location, and we don't have the budget for a lot of tge large 4beds in desirable locations. If the worst thing about this house is it's faff to get a mortgage, given we hope to be here 40-50years maybe that's ok?
Happy to be wrong, but just thinking aloud.
Only ever bought one house before in my life, and a very different house it was, but that was also a larger slightly problematic house if not any issues with the mortgage, and so far that's gone very well.
Daniel
So hard to know.
If you have a house on the market for 485, offer accepted at 465, homebuyers values up, the the lender wades at 380k you think 'farrk, that wasnt the plan' and set about trying to work out if it's you or the mortgage valuation that's out.
You speak to the survayor who did the homebuyers, a nice bloke in local place you picked as it seemed good.
You speak to the estate agents and get what you can from the negotiators and the valuer.
You speak to your mortgage advisor and get what you can from the lender and their valuer.
You contest the outcome and see what happens there. If it changes or if it sticks. Which I did.
You select another lender and see what they will lone at and find that to value up without any issues.
Then you have a reasonable but conflicting set of data, on a subject you are an amateur at, and have to make a call!
A lot would walk away. But then a lot would also be happy paying 465k for a 1990's barratt homes house.
Three stories of stud walls, in which no room dimension exceeds 4m, a kitchen not designed for cooking in, about 40sq off soggy lawn edged with gravel, and one parking space and a single garage with no power that is a foot narrower than a car. I degree...
Daniel
If you have a house on the market for 485, offer accepted at 465, homebuyers values up, the the lender wades at 380k you think 'farrk, that wasnt the plan' and set about trying to work out if it's you or the mortgage valuation that's out.
You speak to the survayor who did the homebuyers, a nice bloke in local place you picked as it seemed good.
You speak to the estate agents and get what you can from the negotiators and the valuer.
You speak to your mortgage advisor and get what you can from the lender and their valuer.
You contest the outcome and see what happens there. If it changes or if it sticks. Which I did.
You select another lender and see what they will lone at and find that to value up without any issues.
Then you have a reasonable but conflicting set of data, on a subject you are an amateur at, and have to make a call!
A lot would walk away. But then a lot would also be happy paying 465k for a 1990's barratt homes house.
Three stories of stud walls, in which no room dimension exceeds 4m, a kitchen not designed for cooking in, about 40sq off soggy lawn edged with gravel, and one parking space and a single garage with no power that is a foot narrower than a car. I degree...
Daniel
We are proceeding, while I talk about it, because it is interesting.
As you say, the valuer doesn't work for me, and probably isnt paid to do anything more than he does, at which point fair play. If to be honest a shame. The vendors seem as unimpressed with estate agents as anyone else and I think they are mad to have gone with a more modern cost effective agent given the house. But them I have an aunt who is an estate agent, and she says sometimes you just get a vendor who doesn't really want to sell. Very little you can do with that.
I read that thread, and if the valuation was 15k under I could almost take it more seriously, but the difference between 465 and 380 is 85k which is not variation on a theme, its a totally different way of looking at it. With their own reasons its could well be both valuations are right, but they certainly don't agree with each other!
From all my googling and reading I don't think I have come across a single first hand account of a valuation being overturned, and a lot of professionals who cant think of a time they know of either. They can't always get it right. Who knows.
We like the house. It ticks all the boxes we laid out before looking for houses. We think the price is fair for the area and can not find anything else for the money that does what we want.
Daniel
As you say, the valuer doesn't work for me, and probably isnt paid to do anything more than he does, at which point fair play. If to be honest a shame. The vendors seem as unimpressed with estate agents as anyone else and I think they are mad to have gone with a more modern cost effective agent given the house. But them I have an aunt who is an estate agent, and she says sometimes you just get a vendor who doesn't really want to sell. Very little you can do with that.
I read that thread, and if the valuation was 15k under I could almost take it more seriously, but the difference between 465 and 380 is 85k which is not variation on a theme, its a totally different way of looking at it. With their own reasons its could well be both valuations are right, but they certainly don't agree with each other!
From all my googling and reading I don't think I have come across a single first hand account of a valuation being overturned, and a lot of professionals who cant think of a time they know of either. They can't always get it right. Who knows.
We like the house. It ticks all the boxes we laid out before looking for houses. We think the price is fair for the area and can not find anything else for the money that does what we want.
Daniel
Time for an update.
Today we exchanged on the property, at the previously offered and agreed value of £465,000.
I will not post the link publicly at it rather gives away exactly where we are about to live which seems foolish, however anyone who wishes can pm if they wish.
We complete on the 14th and will move outselves in the following weekend.
Thank you to anyone who helped and took part in this thread.
Daniel
Today we exchanged on the property, at the previously offered and agreed value of £465,000.
I will not post the link publicly at it rather gives away exactly where we are about to live which seems foolish, however anyone who wishes can pm if they wish.
We complete on the 14th and will move outselves in the following weekend.
Thank you to anyone who helped and took part in this thread.
Daniel
Thanks, and a public thanks for your advice during the purchase.
Couldn't find it last night, but this is the floorplan with dimensions and garage added. The right hand bedroom shapes are a bit distorted from their really shaoe, but are one room that's been divided. Other rooms all about as shown.
Daniel
Couldn't find it last night, but this is the floorplan with dimensions and garage added. The right hand bedroom shapes are a bit distorted from their really shaoe, but are one room that's been divided. Other rooms all about as shown.
Daniel
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