Is this fraud?
Discussion
BarryTone said:
Badda said:
BarryTone said:
I don't want to see my wife getting in hot water unwittingly.
Who do you think 'they' would go after if anything was wrong with a tax return - the person who paid the bill and whose tax is was or the owner of a car? But I don't know what the knock-on effect is. I'm assuming he would be recording the vehicle as business use at his end? What effect does that have on her insurance which is not business use? If she had a big smash would this flag up somewhere? etc etc
BarryTone said:
Sorry tough guy, didn't mean to upset you.
Pretty sure my OP was framed as an enquiry, not a statement. Let me spell it out. I don't want to snub or undermine my father-in-law unnecessarily, or upset my wife if he has a legitimate reason to make this request - but I couldn't think of one - IANAL!
As it happens I work in a sensitive area and need to keep squeaky clean, but that aside, I don't want to see my wife getting in hot water unwittingly. Is that not reasonable?
I'm sorry but what possible hot water do you think your wife could get into? Pretty sure my OP was framed as an enquiry, not a statement. Let me spell it out. I don't want to snub or undermine my father-in-law unnecessarily, or upset my wife if he has a legitimate reason to make this request - but I couldn't think of one - IANAL!
As it happens I work in a sensitive area and need to keep squeaky clean, but that aside, I don't want to see my wife getting in hot water unwittingly. Is that not reasonable?
heebeegeetee said:
I'm sorry but what possible hot water do you think your wife could get into?
Well, I mentioned some concerns over the effects on her insurance... Then there's the fact that she is (in theory) asking for the invoice to be made out in the business name, that would make her party to the offence no? Look, I get that it's all ifs, buts and maybes but I'm really just looking to confirm my suspicion that I am right to question the motives behind the request. Seems I am because no one has put forward a plausible reason why the request would otherwise be made than to claw back the tax.
fwiw the moral position is the one that will make my final decision. I am merely interested in the legal stance as I'd rather say to the FIL; " sorry, seems a bit risky for your daughter" (saves his blushes) than say; "sorry, I think what your suggesting is scummy as f*uk". Similarly, I'd rather tell the wife we're not taking the offer on legal grounds than "your folks are morally bankrupt".
In other words, if there was some risk to my wife that would suit me nicely as it would give me an out.
Look, you know full well that your FiL isn't going to legitimately pay to fix your wife's car, based on your description of the proposed method.
In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
EddieSteadyGo said:
Look, you know full well that your FiL isn't going to legitimately pay to fix your wife's car, based on your description of the proposed method.
In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
I get what you're saying.In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
Just paying the bill myself isn't an issue but it will cause embarrassment and likely a bit of stress with the OH. I've been an additional rate taxpayer since my mid-twenties so I do understand what it feels like to pay tax! It's not a lack of appreciation on my behalf, just frustration.
I also wanted to understand the implications before acting in haste ("When you can't see the angles no more, you're in trouble").
Been considering just saying the garage wouldn't do it... but not sure how believable that is.
BarryTone said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Look, you know full well that your FiL isn't going to legitimately pay to fix your wife's car, based on your description of the proposed method.
In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
I get what you're saying.In all likelihood he will include it as a business expense and so will save some of the cost in tax. But he won't save the complete cost - he is still offering to pay a good portion of the cost (assuming he owns the business) and so your starting point should be your FiL is still making a generous offer which deserves some appreciation on your part (putting aside the tax point).
Without moralising, every business owner has to make the decision how far they want to break tax rules. Many on here (e.g. Eric) will say they are whiter than white. Which is great. Others may take the odd ream of paper home for use in their home printer. And some will work their way down that slippery slope to the extent it becomes flagrant.
It is easy to be sanctimonious - you tend to find those who don't pay much tax are the worst in this regard. I should say though, in my own opinion, I wouldn't do what your FiL is planning myself. But as I said in my original reply, if you don't like it, don't pretend to be naive by posting here, and instead just pay your wife's bill yourself.
Just paying the bill myself isn't an issue but it will cause embarrassment and likely a bit of stress with the OH. I've been an additional rate taxpayer since my mid-twenties so I do understand what it feels like to pay tax! It's not a lack of appreciation on my behalf, just frustration.
I also wanted to understand the implications before acting in haste ("When you can't see the angles no more, you're in trouble").
Been considering just saying the garage wouldn't do it... but not sure how believable that is.
Have the cajones to tell the truth and put your own money into the repair.
I'm sure it'll make everyone concerned feel much better. Yessir, I'm sure it will indeed.
jonamv8 said:
My god. I’ve heard about being straightndown the line but you’re going to risk alienating someone who’s doing you a favour
Maybe you hadn't heard but his country isn't exactly awash with public money.If everyone takes the view that it's just a little bit here and there then it all adds up to a place that's worse for us all. It's called civic responsibility.
BarryTone said:
Maybe you hadn't heard but his country isn't exactly awash with public money.
If everyone takes the view that it's just a little bit here and there then it all adds up to a place that's worse for us all. It's called civic responsibility.
That's a valid and honourable view and answers your own question. FiL gets declined and your wife pays the bill in full including VAT.If everyone takes the view that it's just a little bit here and there then it all adds up to a place that's worse for us all. It's called civic responsibility.
I'm sure HM Govt will spend the extra c.£300 wisely!
Countdown said:
Eric Mc said:
The business can settle the bill on behalf of the son in law but it needs to do so in the correct manner.
The fact that OP's FiL wanted an invoice in the name of the business suggests that he has no intention of settling the bill in the "correct" manner. 
Simpo Two said:
That's a valid and honourable view and answers your own question. FiL gets declined and your wife pays the bill in full including VAT.
I'm sure HM Govt will spend the extra c.£300 wisely!
Probably on champagne parties and having moats cleanedI'm sure HM Govt will spend the extra c.£300 wisely!
I admire your morals but do you really think the revenue or VAT man are going to chase you, your wife or your FIL for a small sum - they have far bigger fish to fry
If it was me, I'd say thank you very much and let the FIL pay. You will save grief with your Mrs, an awkward situation with the in-laws and have a bit extra cash to buy something for you or your wife
I do admire your moral compass though, I lost mine years ago!
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