London Capital and Finance
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
I suspect that a big driver is envy and delusion. They spend their life thinking that those higher up the ladder are raking in much more than they are, that they are getting 10,20% annual returns in investments and so when they see some s
thouse scam investment they have a false concept of risk/return and that a posh place name must be more kosher but they still know that these schemes are bent. They’ve seen them all their life time and time again as friends and neighbours have lost money on time shares, ostrich or bamboo farms, putting their gold in the post, fx trading schemes, even bitcoin the list of scams is endless and they have witnessed them all their life and know all about them and know victims. To empathise with these people, to feel sorry, to excuse them, to reward them or protect them is to enable them. It’s horrible and it’s harsh but they cannot be stopped and not are they remotely innocent and we ought to start viewing them more as criminal enablers than as victims and maybe then few people on the peripheries might get sucked in.
thouse scam investment they have a false concept of risk/return and that a posh place name must be more kosher but they still know that these schemes are bent. They’ve seen them all their life time and time again as friends and neighbours have lost money on time shares, ostrich or bamboo farms, putting their gold in the post, fx trading schemes, even bitcoin the list of scams is endless and they have witnessed them all their life and know all about them and know victims. To empathise with these people, to feel sorry, to excuse them, to reward them or protect them is to enable them. It’s horrible and it’s harsh but they cannot be stopped and not are they remotely innocent and we ought to start viewing them more as criminal enablers than as victims and maybe then few people on the peripheries might get sucked in.DonkeyApple said:
It takes two to tango and we should stop seeing the people who enable the shysters as victims but as enablers as much as we should continue to try and force the FCA to actually do their job of reacting to these schemes when they are highlighted by the industry instead of their policy of letting them run free and just stepping in once it’s all over.
That's twice in two days you have decscibed people who may have lost all of their savings as being at fault, & even 'criminal'.I think your views are utterly obnoxious.
There are strong views and I hope it causes people to question the continued action of a type of investor who places their entire savings into high risk strategies. I hope it stimulates a discussion as to how it can be prevented but I have been very fair in my assessment of both sides and no solution can ever be found by not approaching the problem with open eyes and understanding that it takes two to tango.
These types of situation are not the same as those such as company pension funds that get fraudulently decimated taking workers life savings they are a separate issue that is primarily based around wilful greed.
These events do damage to investors and professionals alike and if it takes someone being seemingly a little obnoxious to get people to open their eyes to the truth then I see no harm.
Everyone wants to see an end to these stories and events but both sides involved are at fault and guilty.
These types of situation are not the same as those such as company pension funds that get fraudulently decimated taking workers life savings they are a separate issue that is primarily based around wilful greed.
These events do damage to investors and professionals alike and if it takes someone being seemingly a little obnoxious to get people to open their eyes to the truth then I see no harm.
Everyone wants to see an end to these stories and events but both sides involved are at fault and guilty.
I think the difficulty is that they aren't marketed as high risk strategies and when you have adverts full of smiling families and the elderly it does lend an air of respectability.
I get it, if banks are paying 1% and something is paying 8% you should of course be asking "what's the catch?" but I think you're being a bit strong.
I'd love to know WTF the FCA have been doing.
I get it, if banks are paying 1% and something is paying 8% you should of course be asking "what's the catch?" but I think you're being a bit strong.
I'd love to know WTF the FCA have been doing.
Eric Mc said:
As ever, on PH, victims are always blamed for the bad things that befall them.
It's always nice to see such compassion at work.
Eric, try reading before jumping on your high horse. It’s this kind of closed minded approach that is part of why these horrible events keep happening. It's always nice to see such compassion at work.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I think the difficulty is that they aren't marketed as high risk strategies and when you have adverts full of smiling families and the elderly it does lend an air of respectability.
I get it, if banks are paying 1% and something is paying 8% you should of course be asking "what's the catch?" but I think you're being a bit strong.
I'd love to know WTF the FCA have been doing.
I’m definitely being a bit strong. It is my intent. How many times on PH do we see posts from prospective investors looking at investments that are clearly dubious or at best higher risk than the OP believes. I get it, if banks are paying 1% and something is paying 8% you should of course be asking "what's the catch?" but I think you're being a bit strong.
I'd love to know WTF the FCA have been doing.
What I am attempting to highlight is that it doesn’t seem to matter how many times these products crop up and whatever form they are wrapped in it’s the same type of investor who is drawn to them. Over twenty or so years I have met very many of this type of investor and something that many have in common is that they’ve done it before and been burnt but what is different the final time is that they’ve done it with all their sudden wealth. It’s a particular type of person/investor but until this is recognised then a proper solution will never be forthcoming.
For starters, it is very common for these people to be on ‘mugs lists’ from previous transactions that the fraudsters all share and do deals around. I would question as to whether there is value in the banks using these lists to apply additional flags to cash movements.
On a different but similar note around scams punters and victims, a school friend of mine sells "slimming coffee" - yes I know, but she's currently ecstatic that she's suddenly expanded her business 5 fold because a load of new sellers have signed up.
The fact they're all from Zambia and all signed up within 2 days of each other seems to have passed her by.
I suppose it could be considered karma for all the people she's conned with her coffee
The fact they're all from Zambia and all signed up within 2 days of each other seems to have passed her by.
I suppose it could be considered karma for all the people she's conned with her coffee
DonkeyApple said:
There are strong views and I hope it causes people to question the continued action of a type of investor who places their entire savings into high risk strategies. I hope it stimulates a discussion as to how it can be prevented but I have been very fair in my assessment of both sides and no solution can ever be found by not approaching the problem with open eyes and understanding that it takes two to tango.
These types of situation are not the same as those such as company pension funds that get fraudulently decimated taking workers life savings they are a separate issue that is primarily based around wilful greed.
These events do damage to investors and professionals alike and if it takes someone being seemingly a little obnoxious to get people to open their eyes to the truth then I see no harm.
Everyone wants to see an end to these stories and events but both sides involved are at fault and guilty.
Nice to see a sensible, balanced, post. As usual, simple greed is a key root in all this and the naive will always get suckered in. These types of situation are not the same as those such as company pension funds that get fraudulently decimated taking workers life savings they are a separate issue that is primarily based around wilful greed.
These events do damage to investors and professionals alike and if it takes someone being seemingly a little obnoxious to get people to open their eyes to the truth then I see no harm.
Everyone wants to see an end to these stories and events but both sides involved are at fault and guilty.
.
DonkeyApple said:
I’m definitely being a bit strong. It is my intent. How many times on PH do we see posts from prospective investors looking at investments that are clearly dubious or at best higher risk than the OP believes.
What I am attempting to highlight is that it doesn’t seem to matter how many times these products crop up and whatever form they are wrapped in it’s the same type of investor who is drawn to them. Over twenty or so years I have met very many of this type of investor and something that many have in common is that they’ve done it before and been burnt but what is different the final time is that they’ve done it with all their sudden wealth. It’s a particular type of person/investor but until this is recognised then a proper solution will never be forthcoming.
For starters, it is very common for these people to be on ‘mugs lists’ from previous transactions that the fraudsters all share and do deals around. I would question as to whether there is value in the banks using these lists to apply additional flags to cash movements.
Yes and I can fully see that point where it comes to some investment types.What I am attempting to highlight is that it doesn’t seem to matter how many times these products crop up and whatever form they are wrapped in it’s the same type of investor who is drawn to them. Over twenty or so years I have met very many of this type of investor and something that many have in common is that they’ve done it before and been burnt but what is different the final time is that they’ve done it with all their sudden wealth. It’s a particular type of person/investor but until this is recognised then a proper solution will never be forthcoming.
For starters, it is very common for these people to be on ‘mugs lists’ from previous transactions that the fraudsters all share and do deals around. I would question as to whether there is value in the banks using these lists to apply additional flags to cash movements.
But from what I understand of it I'm not sure this is the same as BitCoin or whatever the latest get rich quick is.
I'm not suggesting the people who fell for it don't shoulder some responsibility for being greedy, but I think there have been plenty of warnings about this before the FCA stepped in too?
I don't know, I don't work in the industry, but it sounds as if quite a few of the warning signs where there on all sides.
DonkeyApple said:
Eric, try reading before jumping on your high horse. It’s this kind of closed minded approach that is part of why these horrible events keep happening.
It's not "closed mind thinking". Things like this happen to different people each time. But people are very bad at learning from other peoples' mistakes. If a person makes a mistake and then repeats it again and again - of course you can blame them for being naive and stupid. But most of these people were uneducated investors and the investment was a "one off" - probably the only investment of this type they have ever made.
The fault is the system that allows crooks to set up companies like this in the first place.
Many people seem to think that the person who is duped is just as guilty as the person doing the duping.
Eric Mc said:
DonkeyApple said:
Eric, try reading before jumping on your high horse. It’s this kind of closed minded approach that is part of why these horrible events keep happening.
It's not "closed mind thinking". Things like this happen to different people each time. But people are very bad at learning from other peoples' mistakes. If a person makes a mistake and then repeats it again and again - of course you can blame them for being naive and stupid. But most of these people were uneducated investors and the investment was a "one off" - probably the only investment of this type they have ever made.
The fault is the system that allows crooks to set up companies like this in the first place.
Many people seem to think that the person who is duped is just as guilty as the person doing the duping.
.
That's where you and I disagree. People generally only know what is "too good to be true" if they have a reasonable understanding of the market and yields that should be expected vis a vis "risk". Having said that, some people do indeed ask the right questions but will be reassured by the "salesmen" of the product that the product is low or medium risk even when it's not. After all, fraudsters aren't usually known for being honest to their victims.
Mr Pointy said:
I think your views are utterly obnoxious.
Yes, it 100% comes across that way and for that reason I don't think DA worded it very well.Knowing him in the real world (and knowing the continued development of these scams) I do understand the point he was making and the deeper experience behind it.
I don't think he made it particularly well though (sorry mate), which is unusual for him.
As Eric (whom I massively respect) has said, most people only get caught once in such scams and that is enough to steer them away for life. It shouldn't be allowed to happen once though.
Edited to remove an error
Edited by JulianPH on Sunday 10th March 16:01
Is what happened 'criminal' or 'illegal' in the sense that someone can be held responsible? Or was it just about legit, but the 'investments' were poor and probably never going to go well?
From what I can understand it should be illegal, and to learn that the marketing agents were being paid 25% commission must be terrible for the people who have lost money, because the it does look like it was simply set up as a con from day 1.
From what I can understand it should be illegal, and to learn that the marketing agents were being paid 25% commission must be terrible for the people who have lost money, because the it does look like it was simply set up as a con from day 1.
Condi said:
Is what happened 'criminal' or 'illegal' in the sense that someone can be held responsible? Or was it just about legit, but the 'investments' were poor and probably never going to go well?
From what I can understand it should be illegal, and to learn that the marketing agents were being paid 25% commission must be terrible for the people who have lost money, because the it does look like it was simply set up as a con from day 1.
I believe this was illegal. The claims made by the company were were unfair, misleading and unclear. From what I can understand it should be illegal, and to learn that the marketing agents were being paid 25% commission must be terrible for the people who have lost money, because the it does look like it was simply set up as a con from day 1.
Under contract law (and particularly under tort law) they are liable. The only question is do they still have the money...?
b
d fking scum. Eric Mc said:
As ever, on PH, victims are always blamed for the bad things that befall them.
It's always nice to see such compassion at work.
It’s a bit blunt, but there’s a lot of sense in what DA is saying. It's always nice to see such compassion at work.
In this day and age with the resources available to everyone, there is only one reason someone would go near these schemes.
It’s greed - pure and simple, and thus difficult to render too much compassion.
A fool and his money, as they say..
Testaburger said:
Eric Mc said:
As ever, on PH, victims are always blamed for the bad things that befall them.
It's always nice to see such compassion at work.
It’s a bit blunt, but there’s a lot of sense in what DA is saying. It's always nice to see such compassion at work.
In this day and age with the resources available to everyone, there is only one reason someone would go near these schemes.
It’s greed - pure and simple, and thus difficult to render too much compassion.
A fool and his money, as they say..
Have some f
king humanity, most people know very little about finance and are inherently good people who could not envisage such schemes exist. Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff