State Pension potential shortfall warning
Discussion
jsf said:
At least that puts to bed the nonsense about needing to keep paying NI once you have accrued enough credits.
Are we sure about that now? If I retire at 60, 7 years early, having made 43 years of contributions, I will get the full state pension at 67, without making further payments after 60. Even though I was contracted out for 25 years. The website shows me being entitled to £168.60. TwigtheWonderkid said:
jsf said:
At least that puts to bed the nonsense about needing to keep paying NI once you have accrued enough credits.
Are we sure about that now? If I retire at 60, 7 years early, having made 43 years of contributions, I will get the full state pension at 67, without making further payments after 60. Even though I was contracted out for 25 years. The website shows me being entitled to £168.60. TwigtheWonderkid said:
Are we sure about that now? If I retire at 60, 7 years early, having made 43 years of contributions, I will get the full state pension at 67, without making further payments after 60. Even though I was contracted out for 25 years. The website shows me being entitled to £168.60.
There's another calculation going on behind the scenes that calculates your pension under the pre 2016 rules.Well I tried calling the companies that may have dealt with a work pension when I was contracted out back in the early 90s.
They have no record of me on their books. One wasn't formed until a good 8 years after I worked for those companies.
The GOV website says I have a COPE of £17 a week, but does anyone know how on earth I find this?
Two of the companies I worked for are no longer trading, which doesn't help. There must be so many people in the same position.
They have no record of me on their books. One wasn't formed until a good 8 years after I worked for those companies.
The GOV website says I have a COPE of £17 a week, but does anyone know how on earth I find this?
Two of the companies I worked for are no longer trading, which doesn't help. There must be so many people in the same position.
Sheepshanks said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Are we sure about that now? If I retire at 60, 7 years early, having made 43 years of contributions, I will get the full state pension at 67, without making further payments after 60. Even though I was contracted out for 25 years. The website shows me being entitled to £168.60.
There's another calculation going on behind the scenes that calculates your pension under the pre 2016 rules."Estimate based on your NI record up to 5 April 2019: £164.85 a week
Forecast if you contribute another year before 5 April 2036: £168.60 a week
You cannot improve your forecast any further, unless you choose to put off claiming."
The above tells me clearly that another year will entitle me to the full pension.
Further to this, there was a link to a COPE page which says:
"Your COPE estimate is £49.65 a week.
This will not affect your state pension. The COPE amount is paid as part of your other pension schemes, not by the government."
Therefore I'm getting the full state pension plus the amount I accrued in my corporate scheme due to contracting out.
I really don't see what else there is here.
FiF said:
Yep, experience of myself, my partner and personal communication with other colleagues suggests that the suggestion "enough full contribution years per the website etc and it's full pension for you for certain" is not an accurate reflection of the situation for various reasons, not just contracting out. Yet the OP gets accused of spreading disinformation.
Was this a recent issue? The information given on the Pension Forecast website has changed & improved over the last couple of years. croyde said:
Well I tried calling the companies that may have dealt with a work pension when I was contracted out back in the early 90s.
They have no record of me on their books. One wasn't formed until a good 8 years after I worked for those companies.
The GOV website says I have a COPE of £17 a week, but does anyone know how on earth I find this?
Two of the companies I worked for are no longer trading, which doesn't help. There must be so many people in the same position.
Here's a general response on this matter.They have no record of me on their books. One wasn't formed until a good 8 years after I worked for those companies.
The GOV website says I have a COPE of £17 a week, but does anyone know how on earth I find this?
Two of the companies I worked for are no longer trading, which doesn't help. There must be so many people in the same position.
1. Do you have any papers/documents confirming your contracted out benefits and the organisation(s) responsible for them? Bad new if you don't.
2. If you do, contact them and ask for confirmation that they are responsible, and any other details that you feel you need.
3. If they deny responsibility, make a complaint. This is where 1 above becomes important.
4. If they still do not accept responsibility, take the matter to the office of the Pensions Ombudsman https://www.pensions-ombudsman.org.uk. Note that you cannot take this step without making a complaint and getting a response first.
5. No papers/documents? Double check. If nothing, try the pension tracing service https://www.gov.uk/find-pension-contact-details. Make sure you use this website address as there's plenty of others that are not official and are looking to get fees out of you. Also, this service is not all that reliable but it may be a start for you
6. As a final resort, you can write (yes, old fashioned letter required) to HMRC to tell them of your plight and ask them for assistance in identifying the source of the contracted out benefits that you are looking for.
And, as you say, there are many people in the same situation as you. It's one of the reasons several governments have talked about setting up a mandatory "dashboard" where a person's full pension and related benefits are all stored and accessibible by that person, but like plenty of other good ideas it gets a low priority so nothing is done about it.
R.
croyde said:
Well I tried calling the companies that may have dealt with a work pension when I was contracted out back in the early 90s. They have no record of me on their books. One wasn't formed until a good 8 years after I worked for those companies.
The GOV website says I have a COPE of £17 a week, but does anyone know how on earth I find this?
Two of the companies I worked for are no longer trading, which doesn't help. There must be so many people in the same position.
Have a look at the Pension Tracing Service:The GOV website says I have a COPE of £17 a week, but does anyone know how on earth I find this?
Two of the companies I worked for are no longer trading, which doesn't help. There must be so many people in the same position.
https://www.gov.uk/find-pension-contact-details
Mr Pointy said:
FiF said:
Yep, experience of myself, my partner and personal communication with other colleagues suggests that the suggestion "enough full contribution years per the website etc and it's full pension for you for certain" is not an accurate reflection of the situation for various reasons, not just contracting out. Yet the OP gets accused of spreading disinformation.
Was this a recent issue? The information given on the Pension Forecast website has changed & improved over the last couple of years. Now my partner, not at pension age yet, I've run her information last month.
She has 39 full contribution years according to the website records up to April 2019. I've cross checked this year by year from records and P60s. Yes we are that sad about keeping certain records. There are definitely 39 full contribution years.
There are a number of years in addition to those 39, where for various reasons she didn't contribute enough to get a full qualifying year.
Her predictions are as follows.
- Based on contributions up to April 2019 148.80/wk
- Forecast if she contributes up to April 2020 153.62/wk
- If she also makes class 3 contributions (£4000 ish total) for years where insufficient contribution have been made then she can increase the pension to a maximum of 168.07.
- It turns out from further investigation that contrary to what I previously thought, contracting out is not a factor, also there is no COPE figure given.
FiF said:
My 'shortfall' is principally due to a long period of contracting out, though they can't explain the calculation behind the reduction.
This seems ridiculous but I've seen it stated in articles that it's impossible for anyone to do the calculation manually, even if you have all the information.FiF said:
Now square all that to blank statements that "if you have 35 full contribution years you definitely will get 168.80 full stop rule off." Plus allegations that anyone who says anything different is talking twaddle.
On the face of it, the system must think that your partner was contracted out for a few years - although it's then odd that no COPE amount is shown. Maybe it doesn't show if it's small? My missus was part-time Civil Service for 20yrs and her COPE is only £9.Sheepshanks said:
On the face of it, the system must think that your partner was contracted out for a few years - although it's then odd that no COPE amount is shown. Maybe it doesn't show if it's small? My missus was part-time Civil Service for 20yrs and her COPE is only £9.
OK, devil's advocate, let's assume they think it exists, it being a period of contracting out, but the COPE is too small to show, or even mention, then why the 20 quid reduction?Plus I come back to a question asked earlier and no one answered, if the contracting out reduction is simply to deal with contracting out from SERPS and forerunners, why can the reduction take the pension below what the old basic state pension would have been, ie no additional SERPS ?
Mr Pointy said:
Have a look at the Pension Tracing Service:
https://www.gov.uk/find-pension-contact-details
Did use that and was surprised that it came up with names of pension companies used by my old employers. https://www.gov.uk/find-pension-contact-details
Only thing, as I said, one of the companies mentioned only started trading about 8 years after I left.
So maybe not so accurate.
As another poster has pointed out, I've got a lot of digging to do.
Thanks all.
I also rang the helpline today,
Provided I pay my 2018/2019 contributions I am entitled to a full state pension.
I specifically asked if I retired at 60 and took my private pension, stopped paying NI contributions would there be a shortfall in the amount paid.
The answer was no as long as I let the Tax office know I have stopped working.
Pleased to hear this as if I had to keep paying in for the next 8 years that would make 50 years of contributions paid in.
Provided I pay my 2018/2019 contributions I am entitled to a full state pension.
I specifically asked if I retired at 60 and took my private pension, stopped paying NI contributions would there be a shortfall in the amount paid.
The answer was no as long as I let the Tax office know I have stopped working.
Pleased to hear this as if I had to keep paying in for the next 8 years that would make 50 years of contributions paid in.
markymarkthree said:
Sheepshanks said:
My state pension age is 66, and I'll hit that in 2023.
The forecast up to Apr 19 is £152/wk and it says I need to keep contributing and that if I contribute another 4yrs I'll hit £168.
It notes I was contracted out, and my COPE estimate is £113/wk.
My contribution record says I have 46yrs of full contributions.
What I don't know is how many years I was contracted out. I assume from 46+4-35 that it must have been 15 yrs, which is feasible - the current scheme I'm in, which I joined about 20yrs ago, has never been contracted out.
My wife is a couple of years behind me, yet her forecast says she's reached the max already. What seems odd about this is that for a good 20 years she was a Civil Servant (a small part of it in the Contributions Agency!) and she is convinced she was contracted out. If that's true there's no way she should have enough years. She does have a COPE amount shown of £9!
I guess you are the same as me born in 1957.The forecast up to Apr 19 is £152/wk and it says I need to keep contributing and that if I contribute another 4yrs I'll hit £168.
It notes I was contracted out, and my COPE estimate is £113/wk.
My contribution record says I have 46yrs of full contributions.
What I don't know is how many years I was contracted out. I assume from 46+4-35 that it must have been 15 yrs, which is feasible - the current scheme I'm in, which I joined about 20yrs ago, has never been contracted out.
My wife is a couple of years behind me, yet her forecast says she's reached the max already. What seems odd about this is that for a good 20 years she was a Civil Servant (a small part of it in the Contributions Agency!) and she is convinced she was contracted out. If that's true there's no way she should have enough years. She does have a COPE amount shown of £9!
Edited by Sheepshanks on Friday 3rd January 22:32
I have the same as you, re 46 years of contributions. Which doesn't add up as I started work at 15/16 and retired at 59 (43 years) or am I using Abbott maths.
Why does sheepshanks have to do 4 more years? And is only on 152 despite already having 46 full years!!!
And then you’ve got i4got saying he’s got the full amount despite retiring aged 54 and did 35 years?
And fif’s partner indicating she has got 39 full years but is only on £148? Regardless of cope does 35 full years not mean anything?
Is the calculation skewed depending on the actual sum paid, as well as contributing years does anyone know?
My calc tells me I have the full new pension about 168 a week and have paid enough contributions already, I'm almost 59 and now retired so nowt else will be paid in BUT I have been paying in full ni rate for most of my life and wouldn't expect to have to chip in anything else tbh.
My calc tells me I have the full new pension about 168 a week and have paid enough contributions already, I'm almost 59 and now retired so nowt else will be paid in BUT I have been paying in full ni rate for most of my life and wouldn't expect to have to chip in anything else tbh.
FiF said:
OK, devil's advocate, let's assume they think it exists, it being a period of contracting out, but the COPE is too small to show, or even mention, then why the 20 quid reduction?
Plus I come back to a question asked earlier and no one answered, if the contracting out reduction is simply to deal with contracting out from SERPS and forerunners, why can the reduction take the pension below what the old basic state pension would have been, ie no additional SERPS ?
I looked back for the question you asked earlier and you did say earlier in the thread that your missus was contracted out for 3yrs.Plus I come back to a question asked earlier and no one answered, if the contracting out reduction is simply to deal with contracting out from SERPS and forerunners, why can the reduction take the pension below what the old basic state pension would have been, ie no additional SERPS ?
As said earlier, there's two parts to this. There's the pre-2016 calculation - you need 30yrs of full contributions (doesn't matter if opted out or not) to get the basic state pension of around £130. If you weren't opted out then there will be a SERPs figure to add. Then there's the post 2016 calcuation - you need 35 yrs of non-opted out contributions to get the new full pension of £168.
Your pension will be whichever figure is higher.
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