Scam Afternmath
Discussion
aspender said:
In the case of my mother in her late seventies, she was scammed by somebody claiming to be from her bank who needed her to move money out of her account for security reasons. This got flagged online and the scammer coached her through what to say to the branch she visited ("it's an internal fraud, you can't tell them I'm asking you" etc etc)
When she went into the branch she was asked why she was moving the money, and she said "it's for my granddaughters house purchase" - they waved it through and she lost a five figure sum.
Had the branch manager she was in the room with just probed at all around that reasoning they might have got her to 'confess' that her only grandchild was three years old...
That's sad to hear. When she went into the branch she was asked why she was moving the money, and she said "it's for my granddaughters house purchase" - they waved it through and she lost a five figure sum.
Had the branch manager she was in the room with just probed at all around that reasoning they might have got her to 'confess' that her only grandchild was three years old...
It's the human ellement that's failling. In every case that people have kindly shared, it doesn;t seem like it would take much to 'pop the bubble' of the scam, but the training to ask reasonable but probing questions really isn't there. The mind set of the person in the branch or on the phone is to accept the first answer. I think the scale & effect of manipulation is hugely underestimated.
Herdwick said:
We have been on the other end of this, where the scammers used OUR details for the sale of items.
Again, the banks were NOT interested at all, even when the full details were finally brought to their attention.
Not a Ferrari, but HGV's, Trailers, Skips, Plant and machinery, they targeted various businesses around the country, all by email, NO phone number supplied, stating that they urgently needed to sell their ''equipment'' and were looking for a cash buyer, apparently all the items were cheap, but only so they looked a bargain, not unrealistically.
Various companies paid money to the scammers as their 'deposit' with the balance to be paid by cash on delivery, (many tens of thousands in some cases), but of course there was no item in existance.
We were only made aware of this when a sensible buyer realised it was a scam after he had done checks on ''US'' (the company apparently selling), and found we were actually a holiday cottage with a turnover of £20k and assests of £10k.
He contacted us to explain his worries, the in the following weeks, we were inundated with requests for more information about the products or when the items were to be delivered.
We even had one company take us to court for failure to supply 7 x artic loads of pallets, he would not listen to any sense, fortunately we were insured and he lost a couple of thousand more on legal costs.
It finally ended after one prospective customer strung them along and managed to get a phone number, bank details and names, all passed to us
We found the bank in question, who could give no explanation at all, as to how someone with a completely different name, i.d, and address had been able to open a Ltd company account in our business name. They had passed all security checks at the bank, - somehow, and the bank simply washed their hands of the problem by closing the account. No help to the people who had paid in the money.
As for stress and lives ruined, yes all very easy to happen, we were on the local police register for immediate call out with armed police (who DID kindly attend on more than one occasion), when we were getting visits from ''customers'' who came to our home collect their items, armed with crowbars dogs and death threats. Our address was on companies house at the time. !
Now a couple of years on , we still have NO idea how/why our business was picked, but still worry it could happen again.
That's not good. I had an enquiry land in via our website last week for a particular type of machinery that we do, and called this company after googling them, however it was the real company I contacted and the guy advised me it wasn't him enquiring, but a scam. They had cloned his website the lot, and the fake domain had one extra letter in it's name. He was likewise inundated. Again, the banks were NOT interested at all, even when the full details were finally brought to their attention.
Not a Ferrari, but HGV's, Trailers, Skips, Plant and machinery, they targeted various businesses around the country, all by email, NO phone number supplied, stating that they urgently needed to sell their ''equipment'' and were looking for a cash buyer, apparently all the items were cheap, but only so they looked a bargain, not unrealistically.
Various companies paid money to the scammers as their 'deposit' with the balance to be paid by cash on delivery, (many tens of thousands in some cases), but of course there was no item in existance.
We were only made aware of this when a sensible buyer realised it was a scam after he had done checks on ''US'' (the company apparently selling), and found we were actually a holiday cottage with a turnover of £20k and assests of £10k.
He contacted us to explain his worries, the in the following weeks, we were inundated with requests for more information about the products or when the items were to be delivered.
We even had one company take us to court for failure to supply 7 x artic loads of pallets, he would not listen to any sense, fortunately we were insured and he lost a couple of thousand more on legal costs.
It finally ended after one prospective customer strung them along and managed to get a phone number, bank details and names, all passed to us
We found the bank in question, who could give no explanation at all, as to how someone with a completely different name, i.d, and address had been able to open a Ltd company account in our business name. They had passed all security checks at the bank, - somehow, and the bank simply washed their hands of the problem by closing the account. No help to the people who had paid in the money.
As for stress and lives ruined, yes all very easy to happen, we were on the local police register for immediate call out with armed police (who DID kindly attend on more than one occasion), when we were getting visits from ''customers'' who came to our home collect their items, armed with crowbars dogs and death threats. Our address was on companies house at the time. !
Now a couple of years on , we still have NO idea how/why our business was picked, but still worry it could happen again.
When I get these phishing emails I tend to push them to the governemnt website for reporting phishing.
What I was trying to convey partly, was that its all too easy to blame the victim for being careless.
Secondly, the banks would take no responsibility for the opening of a fraudulent account.
In our case, the companies that were contacted to offer goods to were all carefully targeted (from what I could establish) that they were the type of place that had previously bought 'surplus' goods, so in many cases, the email offering the initial contact was not something that struck as suspicious.
The scammers must have spent a lot of time on research to find their victims, and having seen copies of the emails between prospective buyers and the scammers, they were extremely plausible.
Their biggest mistake was to pick/use a company that was so small, that it could never have been involved in that type of business. Had they cloned an existing ''Plant/skip'' type of company, they would have got much further sadly.
Secondly, the banks would take no responsibility for the opening of a fraudulent account.
In our case, the companies that were contacted to offer goods to were all carefully targeted (from what I could establish) that they were the type of place that had previously bought 'surplus' goods, so in many cases, the email offering the initial contact was not something that struck as suspicious.
The scammers must have spent a lot of time on research to find their victims, and having seen copies of the emails between prospective buyers and the scammers, they were extremely plausible.
Their biggest mistake was to pick/use a company that was so small, that it could never have been involved in that type of business. Had they cloned an existing ''Plant/skip'' type of company, they would have got much further sadly.
Fonzey said:
Exactly how my grandparents got done, they thought they were assisting in a bank internal investigation and were given a script to give to the bank over the phone/counter etc.
I've been in that frustrating situation sat in a strangers living room trying to figure out where my money went when doing a bank transfer to buy a car, so I can see both sides. The fact that bank accounts don't seem to have any kind of follow up/traceability is what I find very odd. Paypal can recover funds if an eBay sale goes south, so why doesn't the mainstream banking system have that sort of mechanism?
The issue is that paypal will normally hold the money for a period, so they are able to recover it.I've been in that frustrating situation sat in a strangers living room trying to figure out where my money went when doing a bank transfer to buy a car, so I can see both sides. The fact that bank accounts don't seem to have any kind of follow up/traceability is what I find very odd. Paypal can recover funds if an eBay sale goes south, so why doesn't the mainstream banking system have that sort of mechanism?
Unfortunately there is only so much a bank can do to protect your money, people say they want protection, but if the banks refused to let you access your money, and said it was gonna be several days, then people would start then not banking with that bank.
And then you have the additional cost of investigating every transaction that leaves the bank to make sure they are all legit, I suspect people wouldnt be happy paying for their bank account.
The reality is, that people need to start being more proactive with making sure that the people they send money to are genuine, and not just get drawn in by the promise of good interest rates, or the threat of fines or police action.
Part of the reason that elderly vulnerable people get caught out so much on these scams, is that they dont like to accept that they are at an age, where they need help, and dont understand as much as they used to about their finances, and they are reluctant to give up their independence, so they go ahead with it, and will quite often not say anything when they find out they have been scammed, for fear of losing their independence, and the shame of it.
Its not nice, but its the state of the world we live in, there will always be people out there that will try to take advantage of vulnerable people.
Looks like a few US youtubers have clubbed together and are trying to make the scammers life harder, though as they are discovering it's a tangled web, with the scammers scamming each other when trying to collect the cash.
Maybe worth sharing some of your stories with them to see if they can apply some well due karma ?
Herdwick said:
What I was trying to convey partly, was that its all too easy to blame the victim for being careless.
Secondly, the banks would take no responsibility for the opening of a fraudulent account.
In our case, the companies that were contacted to offer goods to were all carefully targeted (from what I could establish) that they were the type of place that had previously bought 'surplus' goods, so in many cases, the email offering the initial contact was not something that struck as suspicious.
The scammers must have spent a lot of time on research to find their victims, and having seen copies of the emails between prospective buyers and the scammers, they were extremely plausible.
Their biggest mistake was to pick/use a company that was so small, that it could never have been involved in that type of business. Had they cloned an existing ''Plant/skip'' type of company, they would have got much further sadly.
Agree - I'm with you. The victim is more often than not blamed for their misfortune.(it was obvious, you were greedy,etc..) In my opinion that is because the bank doesn't want to understand the mechanics of the scam or the psychology. Put simply its a tolerable cost to pay out to 'victims' that shout loud enough. Secondly, the banks would take no responsibility for the opening of a fraudulent account.
In our case, the companies that were contacted to offer goods to were all carefully targeted (from what I could establish) that they were the type of place that had previously bought 'surplus' goods, so in many cases, the email offering the initial contact was not something that struck as suspicious.
The scammers must have spent a lot of time on research to find their victims, and having seen copies of the emails between prospective buyers and the scammers, they were extremely plausible.
Their biggest mistake was to pick/use a company that was so small, that it could never have been involved in that type of business. Had they cloned an existing ''Plant/skip'' type of company, they would have got much further sadly.
In your case I'm sure the scammers will live to fight another day, and further refine their game.
We will never get rid of scams, but a lot could be done to reduce their occurence and impact.
Bogsye said:
Agree - I'm with you. The victim is more often than not blamed for their misfortune.(it was obvious, you were greedy,etc..) In my opinion that is because the bank doesn't want to understand the mechanics of the scam or the psychology. Put simply its a tolerable cost to pay out to 'victims' that shout loud enough.
In your case I'm sure the scammers will live to fight another day, and further refine their game.
We will never get rid of scams, but a lot could be done to reduce their occurence and impact.
Its quite often not as simple as that though, the banks have very limited power to investigate the scams, and the information is passed to the police for them to investigate it.In your case I'm sure the scammers will live to fight another day, and further refine their game.
We will never get rid of scams, but a lot could be done to reduce their occurence and impact.
The problem is, that the amount of scams going on, it is impossible to stop them all, there was a story linked on Pistonheads recently, about a woman that transferred something like 30K to an investment company, was questioned by the bank, confirmed she was ok with the transfer, then a month later the website along with the company dissapear.
There is the HMRC Scam that threatens people with police action,
The TV Licence Scam
The Road Tax Scam
And the email you get from solicitors when purchasing a property, it tells you it needs the deposit and provides bank details, and it turns out that when double checked, the email address is slightly different than the genuine one, but not enough that it is obvious.
Realistically, the person has to have some responsibility for their actions, otherwise people wouldnt care what happens, because they will just get their money back, and this would lead to more fraud.
There maybe needs to be more done to educate the elderly and vulnerable about the use of technology, and how to spot something suspicious.
Hopefully if the bank have let your family down by not doing enough to protect the money, then you get it all back.
Herdwick said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
We have been on the other end of this, where the scammers used OUR details for the sale of items.Again, the banks were NOT interested at all, even when the full details were finally brought to their attention.
Not a Ferrari, but HGV's, Trailers, Skips, Plant and machinery, they targeted various businesses around the country, all by email, NO phone number supplied, stating that they urgently needed to sell their ''equipment'' and were looking for a cash buyer, apparently all the items were cheap, but only so they looked a bargain, not unrealistically.
Various companies paid money to the scammers as their 'deposit' with the balance to be paid by cash on delivery, (many tens of thousands in some cases), but of course there was no item in existance.
We were only made aware of this when a sensible buyer realised it was a scam after he had done checks on ''US'' (the company apparently selling), and found we were actually a holiday cottage with a turnover of £20k and assests of £10k.
He contacted us to explain his worries, the in the following weeks, we were inundated with requests for more information about the products or when the items were to be delivered.
We even had one company take us to court for failure to supply 7 x artic loads of pallets, he would not listen to any sense, fortunately we were insured and he lost a couple of thousand more on legal costs.
It finally ended after one prospective customer strung them along and managed to get a phone number, bank details and names, all passed to us
We found the bank in question, who could give no explanation at all, as to how someone with a completely different name, i.d, and address had been able to open a Ltd company account in our business name. They had passed all security checks at the bank, - somehow, and the bank simply washed their hands of the problem by closing the account. No help to the people who had paid in the money.
As for stress and lives ruined, yes all very easy to happen, we were on the local police register for immediate call out with armed police (who DID kindly attend on more than one occasion), when we were getting visits from ''customers'' who came to our home collect their items, armed with crowbars dogs and death threats. Our address was on companies house at the time. !
Now a couple of years on , we still have NO idea how/why our business was picked, but still worry it could happen again.
A well known high street bank, we had a company account with, we decided to close. And transfer out the money. Just filled in the form, and sent it off. No checks, nothing. All money transferred, to the bank accounts requested (not other company accounts). No verification be it real life or electronic.
If you want to do some scamming, get someones sort code and account number, name and address and just apply to close the account. Job done.
^^ my parents are in their 70's and my rule of thumb for them is to ignore every email or call they get where someone wants them to click a link or send them money; always always get in touch with the Bank or whatever on the landline or in person. Hard work though as there seems to be a new scam every week.
TX.
TX.
Smurfsarepeopletoo said:
The issue is that paypal will normally hold the money for a period, so they are able to recover it.
Unfortunately there is only so much a bank can do to protect your money, people say they want protection, but if the banks refused to let you access your money, and said it was gonna be several days, then people would start then not banking with that bank.
And then you have the additional cost of investigating every transaction that leaves the bank to make sure they are all legit, I suspect people wouldnt be happy paying for their bank account.
The reality is, that people need to start being more proactive with making sure that the people they send money to are genuine, and not just get drawn in by the promise of good interest rates, or the threat of fines or police action.
Part of the reason that elderly vulnerable people get caught out so much on these scams, is that they dont like to accept that they are at an age, where they need help, and dont understand as much as they used to about their finances, and they are reluctant to give up their independence, so they go ahead with it, and will quite often not say anything when they find out they have been scammed, for fear of losing their independence, and the shame of it.
Its not nice, but its the state of the world we live in, there will always be people out there that will try to take advantage of vulnerable people.
Thanks for responding. Out of interest at what point does a bank become complicit in aiding criminal activity?Unfortunately there is only so much a bank can do to protect your money, people say they want protection, but if the banks refused to let you access your money, and said it was gonna be several days, then people would start then not banking with that bank.
And then you have the additional cost of investigating every transaction that leaves the bank to make sure they are all legit, I suspect people wouldnt be happy paying for their bank account.
The reality is, that people need to start being more proactive with making sure that the people they send money to are genuine, and not just get drawn in by the promise of good interest rates, or the threat of fines or police action.
Part of the reason that elderly vulnerable people get caught out so much on these scams, is that they dont like to accept that they are at an age, where they need help, and dont understand as much as they used to about their finances, and they are reluctant to give up their independence, so they go ahead with it, and will quite often not say anything when they find out they have been scammed, for fear of losing their independence, and the shame of it.
Its not nice, but its the state of the world we live in, there will always be people out there that will try to take advantage of vulnerable people.
If the bank thinks it's dodgy, but carries on and transfers money, that seems a tricky situation? If any one of us supported crime it would seem we would face the full force of the law.
Interestingly I see the FCA is taking legal proceedings against NatWest for money laundering.
https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-sta...
Smurfsarepeopletoo said:
The issue is that paypal will normally hold the money for a period, so they are able to recover it.
Unfortunately there is only so much a bank can do to protect your money, people say they want protection, but if the banks refused to let you access your money, and said it was gonna be several days, then people would start then not banking with that bank.
Agree completely, but I was shocked to learn how easy it was to setup a completely fraudulent bank account with a main stream/highstreet bank. The money taken from my Grandparents was tracked to an account at Barclays and the trail dropped dead, completely cold. No real name, a placeholder address, etc. That's the part which surprises me, it doesn't give the Police a chance.Unfortunately there is only so much a bank can do to protect your money, people say they want protection, but if the banks refused to let you access your money, and said it was gonna be several days, then people would start then not banking with that bank.
I personally wouldn't begrudge more thorough checks or a more intrusive process to creating an account that can accept/send money, and I don't think many people would as it's not something you do too often. Tie that part down, and at least these scams have got some potential for follow up.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
To be honest, you should have stepped away from the internet at that point.The scam my FIL fell for was very simple - "BT" called him and said he needed a new router. Made perfect sense to him as he was always complaining about wifi coverage. Router was free, but postage £5.95 - standard BT stuff, and whenever he bought anything he always paid for next day delivery so he thought nothing of it. So he cheerfully gives the nice Indian gentleman his card details...
I mentioned it on the other thread - he felt so stupid he tried to kill himself.
Sheepshanks said:
To be honest, you should have stepped away from the internet at that point.
The scam my FIL fell for was very simple - "BT" called him and said he needed a new router. Made perfect sense to him as he was always complaining about wifi coverage. Router was free, but postage £5.95 - standard BT stuff, and whenever he bought anything he always paid for next day delivery so he thought nothing of it. So he cheerfully gives the nice Indian gentleman his card details...
I mentioned it on the other thread - he felt so stupid he tried to kill himself.
That's terrible Sheepshanks - sorry to hear that. It's easy to understand the traumatic event of something like a physical or armed robbery, but I think it's very easy to underestimate the effect that something like a scam can have on a person. The scam my FIL fell for was very simple - "BT" called him and said he needed a new router. Made perfect sense to him as he was always complaining about wifi coverage. Router was free, but postage £5.95 - standard BT stuff, and whenever he bought anything he always paid for next day delivery so he thought nothing of it. So he cheerfully gives the nice Indian gentleman his card details...
I mentioned it on the other thread - he felt so stupid he tried to kill himself.
Bogsye said:
That's terrible Sheepshanks - sorry to hear that. It's easy to understand the traumatic event of something like a physical or armed robbery, but I think it's very easy to underestimate the effect that something like a scam can have on a person.
He was (he passed away last year from other causes, although we do think the scam, and taking an overdose, hastened his demise) the last person you'd think would fall for something like this, hence his dismay. But he was always a "don't sweat the small stuff" type of guy and it somehow just didn't dawn on him that it wasn't £5.95 that he'd handed over, it was his card details.Sheepshanks said:
He was (he passed away last year from other causes, although we do think the scam, and taking an overdose, hastened his demise) the last person you'd think would fall for something like this, hence his dismay. But he was always a "don't sweat the small stuff" type of guy and it somehow just didn't dawn on him that it wasn't £5.95 that he'd handed over, it was his card details.
Sorry to hear that - I suspect we are in a simillar scenario. anonymous said:
[redacted]
It never even got taken - it was his NatWest debit card and they tried to take two multi £K amounts and the bank held them. The point is, it's not just the loss of money that causes upset, it's the fact that he let himself be caught out, so it made him think he was losing his marbles.
Bogsye said:
Thanks for responding. Out of interest at what point does a bank become complicit in aiding criminal activity?
If the bank thinks it's dodgy, but carries on and transfers money, that seems a tricky situation? If any one of us supported crime it would seem we would face the full force of the law.
Interestingly I see the FCA is taking legal proceedings against NatWest for money laundering.
https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-sta...
Money Laundering will be alot different, but in the situation that your in, the bank will do an internal investigation, to determine if they have asked the right questions.If the bank thinks it's dodgy, but carries on and transfers money, that seems a tricky situation? If any one of us supported crime it would seem we would face the full force of the law.
Interestingly I see the FCA is taking legal proceedings against NatWest for money laundering.
https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-sta...
If we feel that the customer may be involved in fraud, or a victim, we will raise it to the fraud team before the money leaves the bank.
Ive also dealt with customers who have lost all of their money due to someone pretending to be them on the phone and emptying their account, as well as someone transferring money for a legitimate reason, answered all the questions, seemed genuine, and it was only because they didnt hang up properly at the end of the call, and the fraudster was on another line on loud speaker and was heard on the call that it was prevented.
Bogsye said:
The scammers need to be starved of oxygen, and so the starting point is the ellaborate network of bank accounts that they open to then starburst the money back through. What is apparent is that new fintech based challenger banks allow ease of access to create accounts to drive money around the system.
This is the bit that always shocks me about these scams. At that same time as opening a bank account is a huge headache for legitimate businesses, scammers appear to have multiple "clean" accounts and move money between them with impunity.Bogsye said:
Thanks for responding. Out of interest at what point does a bank become complicit in aiding criminal activity?
If the bank thinks it's dodgy, but carries on and transfers money, that seems a tricky situation? If any one of us supported crime it would seem we would face the full force of the law.
Interestingly I see the FCA is taking legal proceedings against NatWest for money laundering.
https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-sta...
The criminal offences for Nat West aren't detailed but I assume they concern the bank not following procedures, not acting on suspicions, poor recording keeping and governance. Interesting that this case involves James Stunt - someone who has been mentioned on PH a number of times thanks to his cars.If the bank thinks it's dodgy, but carries on and transfers money, that seems a tricky situation? If any one of us supported crime it would seem we would face the full force of the law.
Interestingly I see the FCA is taking legal proceedings against NatWest for money laundering.
https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-sta...
One thing I note is that there is a new proposed offence of 'Failure to prevent' all aspects of economic crime eg. fraud. Details on link below.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=44e...
Would this have prevented the scam in question? Who knows?
Another thing to note is that 'Failure to prevent legislation for tax evasion has been in place since 2017.
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