Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)
Discussion
wisbech said:
If you look at some of the internal comms that were released in the case documents they're going to get reamed, and they're going to drag a lot of attention down on everyone in crypto.wisbech said:
Apart from Shutting down the US part of Binance what can they actually do? CZ is not a US citizen and Binance isn't a US based company?AW111 said:
For an invention on a par with the wheel, combustion engine, and the internet (
), cryptocurrency hasn't actually achieved much in the last decade except to make some early adopters / gamblers rich.
Don't forget it's also managed to turn an absolutely mind-buggering amount of energy into 0's & 1's on a hard drive - that's quite a feat.), cryptocurrency hasn't actually achieved much in the last decade except to make some early adopters / gamblers rich.wisbech said:
In a bitcoin world, how do I borrow for long term needs? I'm an airline say, and I need to finance 25 new aircraft for 12 years. Oh, and I am based in Africa, so there is political risk involved, but bitcoin is meant to be fantastic for unstable places. The manufacturer prices them at 10,000 bitcoin each, and doesn't offer vendor financing. At least aircraft are easy for the lender to repossess - what if the investment is for a new subway system? Where do they get the bitcoin from - especially as it will be a while before there is any revenue from the project.
Might it be like the old credit days ie you put up a business case to someone with bitcoin and they agree to lend it to you on x y z terms? If you can't find someone willing to lend it you need to provide other collateral or borrow less etc, there is (and should be?) no guarantee you get to carry out your plan! I know what you are driving at, in that a limited amount of it means how to do find more to finance things, but there is a production of new coins, so it would depend on that value. What maxis can get excited about is if everything was just valued as satoshi's and bitcoin then the 'value' of even a satoshi would be high, but I just can't see it happening as the wealth shift on a purely arbitary basis would be contested as the current large Bitcoin holders could be the next Bezos and Bezos could be an average Joe.
Could it stifle progress yes, would it reduce waste/speculation regarding borrowing yes also.
An all Bitcoin system is not so different to the old Gold standard with the good and bad bits that entailed.
What you couldn't have is perputual debt ceiling increases and decades of trade deficits and that's been good to/for the west (well so far)
I don't blame anyone for having reservations about our current monetary system I just think power is not relinquished easily.
Edited by Scootersp on Wednesday 29th March 00:10
Scootersp said:
An all Bitcoin system is not so different to the old Gold standard with the good and bad bits that entailed.
My understanding is that it is different. Gold standard allows for fractional reserve banking (i.e. a bank could loan out almost all its deposits, only keeping a fraction in reserve, hoping that most depositors wouldn't ask to withdraw on the same day, then use their profits to increase the reserves, and create paper money. There was more money in circulation in 19th C Gold Standard UK than there was gold in the country)Edited by Scootersp on Wednesday 29th March 00:10
BTC doesn't have the same ability to create money supply as far as I know, it is sort of the whole point. You end up in a deflationary spiral from hell.
wisbech said:
My understanding is that it is different. Gold standard allows for fractional reserve banking (i.e. a bank could loan out almost all its deposits, only keeping a fraction in reserve, hoping that most depositors wouldn't ask to withdraw on the same day, then use their profits to increase the reserves, and create paper money. There was more money in circulation in 19th C Gold Standard UK than there was gold in the country)
BTC doesn't have the same ability to create money supply as far as I know, it is sort of the whole point. You end up in a deflationary spiral from hell.
The original Gold standard didn't allow that, it was amended to allow it. I beleive out of 'necessity' in times of war/hardship. Bitcoin could just as easily have the same fractional reserve system placed/layered upon/over it!BTC doesn't have the same ability to create money supply as far as I know, it is sort of the whole point. You end up in a deflationary spiral from hell.
Gold was very much like bitcoins principle (hence why Bitcoin compares itself via 'digital gold', the Bitcoin gold coin emblem etc) just the work was in physically mining it to find more rather than computational power to 'mine' it. Dollars were at one point redeemable for gold and american coinage was made of silver, back when people felt/needed that to feel confident, rightly or wrongly we now accept bits of paper and electonic balances as good enough.
"The gold standard was abandoned due to its propensity for volatility, as well as the constraints it imposed on governments: by retaining a fixed exchange rate, governments were hamstrung in engaging in expansionary policies to, for example, reduce unemployment during economic recessions.[9][10]"
The Gold standard being dropped allowed the US to run multi decade trade deficits, it didn't have to settle in Gold just dollars, that it er didn't have to dig the earth to find, but could simply create or loan into existence. When the US increase their debt ceiling, where is the proof of work, well there isn't any!
Part of my Bitcoin resistance is that it would be very much like Gold and a gold standard, you can't easily create either on a whim, sounds sensible but not to the powers that be? Plus bitcoin starting from nothing price wise means you would have hugely wealthy people that have done little to no work for it either? With Gold it's long history and it's relatively stable/boring price increase means that those that have it have worked pretty hard for it. At the peak of Bitcoin you had one going for a decent annual salary when a few years before they were a weeks?
If you are worried about the fiat system and value/purchasing power of your money going forward then you can switch to the virtual bitcoin limited system which is still a belief system like fiat to some degree or you can drift towards physical things a very outdated idea these days, and still a belief system to a degree but with the backup of it being actually useful for other things.
A Bitcoin can do nothing more than a satoshi can despite it's assigned 'price' and a satoshi being 1/100,000,000th of a bitcoin, vs 1oz of say silver and 100million ounces of it?
digger_R said:
The whole interchangeability of btc vs gold becomes mute once you consider volume actual vs paper contracts. The whole limited supply thing doesn't really work in that respect.
I was talking more comparability than interchangability?The paper contracts are perhaps a necessity but also have created a kind of fractional Gold paper system (far more claims to metal than metal available), like ETF's where you think you own something but are really just in a price option type thing.
WY86 said:
Apart from Shutting down the US part of Binance what can they actually do? CZ is not a US citizen and Binance isn't a US based company?
Anything which uses $US comes somewhat under the eyes of US regulators, it's their greatest economic weapon and why US financial sanctions are so powerful across the globe. Binance were encouraging/telling US customers how to avoid US rules by setting up shell companies or use VPNs to appear as being located abroad. The CFTC's view is that everything is a security with the exception of Bitcoin, and so should be regulated as such. Obviously most aren't and hence why US customers are not allowed to access them.
There is also the old complaint that bitcoin is being used for crime (Shock! Horror!)...
Internally, Binance officers, employees, and agents have acknowledged that the Binance platform has facilitated potentially illegal activities. For example, in February 2019, after receiving information “regarding HAMAS transactions” on Binance, Lim explained to a colleague that terrorists usually send “small sums” as “large sums constitute money laundering.” Lim’s colleague replied: “can barely buy an AK47 with 600 bucks.” And with regard to certain Binance customers, including customers from Russia, Lim acknowledged in a February 2020 chat: “Like come on. They are here for crime.”
Edited by Condi on Wednesday 29th March 17:08
AW111 said:
For an invention on a par with the wheel, combustion engine, and the internet (), cryptocurrency hasn't actually achieved much in the last decade except to make some early adopters / gamblers rich.
I would bet more people, by number, have lost owning bitcoin than have won. A small number of people have made a lot, a lot of people have lost a little. ), cryptocurrency hasn't actually achieved much in the last decade except to make some early adopters / gamblers rich.Condi said:
Anything which uses $US comes somewhat under the eyes of US regulators, it's their greatest economic weapon and why US financial sanctions are so powerful across the globe.
You mean currently… China and UAE have completed the world’s first Yuan- settled LNG trade in a blow to US Dollar dominance - ReutersSimpo Two said:
'moot' 
That is all I know about crypto. Carry on
Well I'm happy to have learnt something. That is all I know about crypto. Carry on
Scootersp said:
I was talking more comparability than interchangability?
The paper contracts are perhaps a necessity but also have created a kind of fractional Gold paper system (far more claims to metal than metal available), like ETF's where you think you own something but are really just in a price option type thing.
Exactly - my point was that from what I see is that contract differences are a key driver on price movement.The paper contracts are perhaps a necessity but also have created a kind of fractional Gold paper system (far more claims to metal than metal available), like ETF's where you think you own something but are really just in a price option type thing.
dimots said:
Condi said:
I would bet more people, by number, have lost owning bitcoin than have won. A small number of people have made a lot, a lot of people have lost a little.
Oh he’s back.Facts as usual.
dimots said:
Oh he’s back.
Utter drivel as usual.
Says the man who flip flops between "it's really private" to "it's really transparent" to "it's really private" repeatedly?Utter drivel as usual.
The bloke that claims to have transacted millions at a time in BTC (for free and instantly, when other seem to pay a fee and wait an age)?
Sir, there are a few people spouting drivel on these pages, and you are 3 of them. I'll see you on the moon.
Condi said:
Corrected for you. You might not like the facts, but they are facts. Crypto doesn't make or lose money, it simply moves money around. For SBF to walk off with a few hundred million how many people had to lose to fund that? If you add up all the scams, all the pump and dumps, and all the fraud it's very obvious lots of people have lost just to fund all the crime and incompetence!
This makes you sound even more stupid. You make a statement about bitcoin and justify it by talking about SBF and crypto? It’s Groundhog Day. Just don’t bother contributing, you have nothing to add.Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff