Pension LTA under threat?
Discussion
Man of gas said:
Quite a relevant post to me as I just handed in my notice today after 17 years as an NHS consultant in a London teaching hospital.
I am being employed in the private sector for over double my NHS salary for 3 days per week.
This thread has 2 types of posters, the ones who get what the pension changes have done to the NHS workforce, discouraging work and productivity with punitive tax penalties and the negative posters that are totally ignorant to the facts and think we are a bunch of whinging fat cats.
The NHS has potential lost the next 16 years of my service because of a government driven erosion of my salary in real terms over the last 15 years.
My current NHS income adjusted for inflation is 35% lower than it was in 2004 whilst my pension contributions have doubled despite having to pay for an extra 7 years for reduced benefits. I have had year on year penalty tax charges as a result in the reduction of the annual allowance. Nobody told me about this when I was doing crazy hours and getting no sleep for weekend after weekend in the mid 90’s.
I know colleagues who have taken on small amounts of additional work resulting in tax penalties of many thousands pounds more than the income it produced, they are literally paying to go to work.
And as for the comment about senior consultants not getting their hands dirty on ICU, I am an anaesthetist and went back to doing night shifts where my only job was to intubate patients on the ward and transfer them to be ventilated on ICU. On one shift we intubated 13 patients in 12 hours.
Well boo hoo, rich people moaning they have too much money.
well said and good luck in your private careerI am being employed in the private sector for over double my NHS salary for 3 days per week.
This thread has 2 types of posters, the ones who get what the pension changes have done to the NHS workforce, discouraging work and productivity with punitive tax penalties and the negative posters that are totally ignorant to the facts and think we are a bunch of whinging fat cats.
The NHS has potential lost the next 16 years of my service because of a government driven erosion of my salary in real terms over the last 15 years.
My current NHS income adjusted for inflation is 35% lower than it was in 2004 whilst my pension contributions have doubled despite having to pay for an extra 7 years for reduced benefits. I have had year on year penalty tax charges as a result in the reduction of the annual allowance. Nobody told me about this when I was doing crazy hours and getting no sleep for weekend after weekend in the mid 90’s.
I know colleagues who have taken on small amounts of additional work resulting in tax penalties of many thousands pounds more than the income it produced, they are literally paying to go to work.
And as for the comment about senior consultants not getting their hands dirty on ICU, I am an anaesthetist and went back to doing night shifts where my only job was to intubate patients on the ward and transfer them to be ventilated on ICU. On one shift we intubated 13 patients in 12 hours.
Well boo hoo, rich people moaning they have too much money.
Man of gas said:
My current NHS income adjusted for inflation is 35% lower than it was in 2004 whilst my pension contributions have doubled despite having to pay for an extra 7 years for reduced benefits.
The issue that comments like this miss is that the actuarial cost of providing guaranteed income for life (which is what a DB pension promise equates to) is much much more expensive today than it was in the 90s or 00s. Whilst the benefits may be reduced, the value of those benefits is significantly greater. This is more apparent in the private sector where enormous DB pension deficits have arisen, not through failure of employers to contribute, but because of low interest rates and increasing longevity.It's really a result of successive governments failing to do the unpopular thing of getting public sector pensions under control, which has inflated the wealth and wage-setting power of a generation of senior NHS staff, ultimately at the expense of more junior NHS staff and the taxpayer.
The issue you miss is that DB pension schemes were a way of past governments kicking the can down the road of providing the cost for a scarce resource, namely doctors. 50 years ago the state could not afford to pay the price but could write a cheque they knew they could not cash. Now they refuse to write the cheque and wonder why the resource is vanishing.
So they can do what they want with DB for civil servants and anyone else that can be replaced at the drop of a hat but if you want to have doctors in the NHS in 10 to 20 years now would be a good time to accept they are not ordinary people.
So they can do what they want with DB for civil servants and anyone else that can be replaced at the drop of a hat but if you want to have doctors in the NHS in 10 to 20 years now would be a good time to accept they are not ordinary people.
Dixy said:
50 years ago the state could not afford to pay the price but could write a cheque they knew they could not cash.
I don't know that what you are saying is true. Life expectancy into retirement was not high 50 years ago (mid 70s was a "good innings") and you could still get double digit returns on investment grade credit assets backing the liabilities. The shape of the population pyramid was also in the government's favour meaning that the ratio of pensioners to workers was manageable. All that has clearly changed.The NHS' limited budget would be better spent getting more medical students in at the bottom and retaining junior/mid level staff that are burning out or emigrating. Tempting senior consultants back off their yachts and into the office feels like a lower priority.
NickCQ said:
I don't know that what you are saying is true. Life expectancy into retirement was not high 50 years ago (mid 70s was a "good innings") and you could still get double digit returns on investment grade credit assets backing the liabilities. The shape of the population pyramid was also in the government's favour meaning that the ratio of pensioners to workers was manageable. All that has clearly changed.
The NHS' limited budget would be better spent getting more medical students in at the bottom and retaining junior/mid level staff that are burning out or emigrating. Tempting senior consultants back off their yachts and into the office feels like a lower priority.
unfortunately most medical schools are happy to accept higher paying foreign students who have no intention of staying in uk so less medical students stay in uk-even when i qualified 15% were paying foreigners who were totally good doctors but as they were paid for by their government had no choice in where they went post graduationThe NHS' limited budget would be better spent getting more medical students in at the bottom and retaining junior/mid level staff that are burning out or emigrating. Tempting senior consultants back off their yachts and into the office feels like a lower priority.
juniors require training and do a lot less than trainess even 10 or 20yrs ago with protected breaks time off restricted hrs etc which is good to protect them but leaves them when qualified unable to do some tasks their senios now do who when gone will not be replaced... so who will do those tasks
exactly the same in general practice fewer and fewer are training practices as due to lack of staff they do not have time to train trainess and still do their normal job
Man of gas said:
Quite a relevant post to me as I just handed in my notice today after 17 years as an NHS consultant in a London teaching hospital.
I am being employed in the private sector for over double my NHS salary for 3 days per week.
This thread has 2 types of posters, the ones who get what the pension changes have done to the NHS workforce, discouraging work and productivity with punitive tax penalties and the negative posters that are totally ignorant to the facts and think we are a bunch of whinging fat cats.
The NHS has potential lost the next 16 years of my service because of a government driven erosion of my salary in real terms over the last 15 years.
My current NHS income adjusted for inflation is 35% lower than it was in 2004 whilst my pension contributions have doubled despite having to pay for an extra 7 years for reduced benefits. I have had year on year penalty tax charges as a result in the reduction of the annual allowance. Nobody told me about this when I was doing crazy hours and getting no sleep for weekend after weekend in the mid 90’s.
I know colleagues who have taken on small amounts of additional work resulting in tax penalties of many thousands pounds more than the income it produced, they are literally paying to go to work.
And as for the comment about senior consultants not getting their hands dirty on ICU, I am an anaesthetist and went back to doing night shifts where my only job was to intubate patients on the ward and transfer them to be ventilated on ICU. On one shift we intubated 13 patients in 12 hours.
Well boo hoo, rich people moaning they have too much money.
The cynic in me says these are not unintended consequences but an intentional drive to privatise more of the healthcare system but that’s a bit tinfoil hat so for now I’ll just stick with staggering incompetence with very serious consequences for the health of the nation.I am being employed in the private sector for over double my NHS salary for 3 days per week.
This thread has 2 types of posters, the ones who get what the pension changes have done to the NHS workforce, discouraging work and productivity with punitive tax penalties and the negative posters that are totally ignorant to the facts and think we are a bunch of whinging fat cats.
The NHS has potential lost the next 16 years of my service because of a government driven erosion of my salary in real terms over the last 15 years.
My current NHS income adjusted for inflation is 35% lower than it was in 2004 whilst my pension contributions have doubled despite having to pay for an extra 7 years for reduced benefits. I have had year on year penalty tax charges as a result in the reduction of the annual allowance. Nobody told me about this when I was doing crazy hours and getting no sleep for weekend after weekend in the mid 90’s.
I know colleagues who have taken on small amounts of additional work resulting in tax penalties of many thousands pounds more than the income it produced, they are literally paying to go to work.
And as for the comment about senior consultants not getting their hands dirty on ICU, I am an anaesthetist and went back to doing night shifts where my only job was to intubate patients on the ward and transfer them to be ventilated on ICU. On one shift we intubated 13 patients in 12 hours.
Well boo hoo, rich people moaning they have too much money.
Carbon Sasquatch said:
nickfrog said:
Thanks for that. So even if death after 75 and they only drawdown it down up to the income tax allowance and have no other income then they get that drawdown tax free every year?
Yep - under 75 tax free - over 75 treated as incomehttps://www.gov.uk/tax-on-pension-death-benefits
What happens when the first beneficiary dies and they leave it to their beneficiary?
If the original sipp owner was under 75 does it become taxable for the second beneficiary if the first beneficiary dies after 75?
Abdul Abulbul Amir said:
Coming back to this.
What happens when the first beneficiary dies and they leave it to their beneficiary?
If the original sipp owner was under 75 does it become taxable for the second beneficiary if the first beneficiary dies after 75?
My understanding is that once inherited, the original SIPP owners circumstances are irrelevant.What happens when the first beneficiary dies and they leave it to their beneficiary?
If the original sipp owner was under 75 does it become taxable for the second beneficiary if the first beneficiary dies after 75?
The person now has a SIPP in their own name, considered crystallised - so no 25% tax free, but also does not count towards LTA. However, also no restriction to wait until 55 - it can be drawn at any time & subject to marginal tax at that time.
Having just inherited one, I'm still learning - but also think that the tax is only payable on the capital withdrawn and not any future growth - but am still trying to clarify that one
On death, I think it depends solely on the age of the person that dies, not the original owner of said SIPP - but could be wrong.
Man of gas said:
Quite a relevant post to me as I just handed in my notice today after 17 years as an NHS consultant in a London teaching hospital.
I am being employed in the private sector for over double my NHS salary for 3 days per week.
I just worked out my out of hours pay for working a 1:8 24/7 oncall including weekends is a staggering money grabbing amount of £8/hr - pre tax!!!I am being employed in the private sector for over double my NHS salary for 3 days per week.
For the £8/hr, I go in 8am-noon on weekends, available on the phone 24hrs a day, am in the hospital within 30 minutes of any phone call if needed, and if I make the wrong decision as the most senior clinician in my area for a population covering 2 million people I have to do my best to apologies to the patient, live with any guilt, and than be hauled up in front of the coroners court.
May be its just ignorance on my part that I've never ever once considered private work, but I suspect all NHS staff is been paid similar amount (if not less) for overtime if am suppose to be one of the over paid fat cats. And if any NHS staff cared about financial reimbursement for their work than everyone would be banging on the door of parliament calling for privatization.
Off to work now, need to really make sure I earn that £8/hr
.gangzoom said:
I just worked out my out of hours pay for working a 1:8 24/7 oncall including weekends is a staggering money grabbing amount of £8/hr - pre tax!!!
For the £8/hr, I go in 8am-noon on weekends, available on the phone 24hrs a day, am in the hospital within 30 minutes of any phone call if needed, and if I make the wrong decision as the most senior clinician in my area for a population covering 2 million people I have to do my best to apologies to the patient, live with any guilt, and than be hauled up in front of the coroners court.
May be its just ignorance on my part that I've never ever once considered private work, but I suspect all NHS staff is been paid similar amount (if not less) for overtime if am suppose to be one of the over paid fat cats. And if any NHS staff cared about financial reimbursement for their work than everyone would be banging on the door of parliament calling for privatization.
Off to work now, need to really make sure I earn that £8/hr.
and that sums up how NHS treat their senior clinicians!For the £8/hr, I go in 8am-noon on weekends, available on the phone 24hrs a day, am in the hospital within 30 minutes of any phone call if needed, and if I make the wrong decision as the most senior clinician in my area for a population covering 2 million people I have to do my best to apologies to the patient, live with any guilt, and than be hauled up in front of the coroners court.
May be its just ignorance on my part that I've never ever once considered private work, but I suspect all NHS staff is been paid similar amount (if not less) for overtime if am suppose to be one of the over paid fat cats. And if any NHS staff cared about financial reimbursement for their work than everyone would be banging on the door of parliament calling for privatization.
Off to work now, need to really make sure I earn that £8/hr
.
Trying to get this thread back on track, after the NHS issue diversion, interesting though that was
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/artic... Seems there's a bit more mainstream media interest in the DB v. DC divide regarding the LTA. Personally I caan't see the gov't grasping this nettle.
Are there any views on how an LTA reduction might be implemented? If they follow the past precedents of offering a new level of Fixed Protection, surely it will take several years before there's a meaningful impact on tax receipts. Yet an immediate reduction in LTA would prompt cries of foul (aka retrospection).
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/artic... Seems there's a bit more mainstream media interest in the DB v. DC divide regarding the LTA. Personally I caan't see the gov't grasping this nettle.
Are there any views on how an LTA reduction might be implemented? If they follow the past precedents of offering a new level of Fixed Protection, surely it will take several years before there's a meaningful impact on tax receipts. Yet an immediate reduction in LTA would prompt cries of foul (aka retrospection).
Interesting thread this....I have no close friends in the NHS, so would be interested to hear what current staff think of the following of comments I have heard made in the press re the power of the BMA in recent years...?
-The BMA lobbies the government to cap medical school places to ensure a very strong market for Doctors in the UK. Medical schools no doubt could train many more Drs and fill their places 10x over. Is this true?
-The BMA have worked very very hard to maintain the unaffordable DB schemes given to NHS staff. When DC pensions would have reflected the general populations situation and national affordability more fairly. Understand that a union should protect its members but does the BMA hold the government hostage as required?
My personal view, if you are lucky enough to be bouncing off the LTA, to over 90% of the population you definitely are "rich". Average UK pot is £62k.
Some posts here with a "hard work" and "deserving it" tone, through some luck and hard work I have a good job in London but I have never worked harder in life than in the lower paid, hourly jobs I had earlier in life (call centre, restaurant, factory, security guard etc). Jobs where you have to take time off to go to the Dr, drop off a child at school and sort of life admin etc. If you earn good money you are lucky, lucky that you had the opportunity to get to where you are or were born with the drive to get there. You didn't do that, you had some luck.
Through my work I see people get very wealthy quite quickly sometimes, usually because they have either set up a business in the right place at the right time (yes they have worked hard too) or have joined a business as an employee at the right place at the right time (and yes have worked hard...but not as hard as the local dustmen I saw sweating this morning...) but always with quite a bit of luck.
Power to the people!
DjSki
-The BMA lobbies the government to cap medical school places to ensure a very strong market for Doctors in the UK. Medical schools no doubt could train many more Drs and fill their places 10x over. Is this true?
-The BMA have worked very very hard to maintain the unaffordable DB schemes given to NHS staff. When DC pensions would have reflected the general populations situation and national affordability more fairly. Understand that a union should protect its members but does the BMA hold the government hostage as required?
My personal view, if you are lucky enough to be bouncing off the LTA, to over 90% of the population you definitely are "rich". Average UK pot is £62k.
Some posts here with a "hard work" and "deserving it" tone, through some luck and hard work I have a good job in London but I have never worked harder in life than in the lower paid, hourly jobs I had earlier in life (call centre, restaurant, factory, security guard etc). Jobs where you have to take time off to go to the Dr, drop off a child at school and sort of life admin etc. If you earn good money you are lucky, lucky that you had the opportunity to get to where you are or were born with the drive to get there. You didn't do that, you had some luck.
Through my work I see people get very wealthy quite quickly sometimes, usually because they have either set up a business in the right place at the right time (yes they have worked hard too) or have joined a business as an employee at the right place at the right time (and yes have worked hard...but not as hard as the local dustmen I saw sweating this morning...) but always with quite a bit of luck.
Power to the people!
DjSki
millen said:
Trying to get this thread back on track, after the NHS issue diversion, interesting though that was
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/artic... Seems there's a bit more mainstream media interest in the DB v. DC divide regarding the LTA. Personally I caan't see the gov't grasping this nettle.
Are there any views on how an LTA reduction might be implemented? If they follow the past precedents of offering a new level of Fixed Protection, surely it will take several years before there's a meaningful impact on tax receipts. Yet an immediate reduction in LTA would prompt cries of foul (aka retrospection).
interesting article!https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/artic... Seems there's a bit more mainstream media interest in the DB v. DC divide regarding the LTA. Personally I caan't see the gov't grasping this nettle.
Are there any views on how an LTA reduction might be implemented? If they follow the past precedents of offering a new level of Fixed Protection, surely it will take several years before there's a meaningful impact on tax receipts. Yet an immediate reduction in LTA would prompt cries of foul (aka retrospection).
DjSki said:
Interesting thread this....I have no close friends in the NHS, so would be interested to hear what current staff think of the following of comments I have heard made in the press re the power of the BMA in recent years...?
-The BMA lobbies the government to cap medical school places to ensure a very strong market for Doctors in the UK. Medical schools no doubt could train many more Drs and fill their places 10x over. Is this true?
-The BMA have worked very very hard to maintain the unaffordable DB schemes given to NHS staff. When DC pensions would have reflected the general populations situation and national affordability more fairly. Understand that a union should protect its members but does the BMA hold the government hostage as required?
My personal view, if you are lucky enough to be bouncing off the LTA, to over 90% of the population you definitely are "rich". Average UK pot is £62k.
Some posts here with a "hard work" and "deserving it" tone, through some luck and hard work I have a good job in London but I have never worked harder in life than in the lower paid, hourly jobs I had earlier in life (call centre, restaurant, factory, security guard etc). Jobs where you have to take time off to go to the Dr, drop off a child at school and sort of life admin etc. If you earn good money you are lucky, lucky that you had the opportunity to get to where you are or were born with the drive to get there. You didn't do that, you had some luck.
Through my work I see people get very wealthy quite quickly sometimes, usually because they have either set up a business in the right place at the right time (yes they have worked hard too) or have joined a business as an employee at the right place at the right time (and yes have worked hard...but not as hard as the local dustmen I saw sweating this morning...) but always with quite a bit of luck.
Power to the people!
DjSki
BMA is powerless constantly telling government/GMC their concerns re overworked understaffed moral injury surveys but do nothing in the end just voice ther opinion-The BMA lobbies the government to cap medical school places to ensure a very strong market for Doctors in the UK. Medical schools no doubt could train many more Drs and fill their places 10x over. Is this true?
-The BMA have worked very very hard to maintain the unaffordable DB schemes given to NHS staff. When DC pensions would have reflected the general populations situation and national affordability more fairly. Understand that a union should protect its members but does the BMA hold the government hostage as required?
My personal view, if you are lucky enough to be bouncing off the LTA, to over 90% of the population you definitely are "rich". Average UK pot is £62k.
Some posts here with a "hard work" and "deserving it" tone, through some luck and hard work I have a good job in London but I have never worked harder in life than in the lower paid, hourly jobs I had earlier in life (call centre, restaurant, factory, security guard etc). Jobs where you have to take time off to go to the Dr, drop off a child at school and sort of life admin etc. If you earn good money you are lucky, lucky that you had the opportunity to get to where you are or were born with the drive to get there. You didn't do that, you had some luck.
Through my work I see people get very wealthy quite quickly sometimes, usually because they have either set up a business in the right place at the right time (yes they have worked hard too) or have joined a business as an employee at the right place at the right time (and yes have worked hard...but not as hard as the local dustmen I saw sweating this morning...) but always with quite a bit of luck.
Power to the people!
DjSki
p1doc said:
BMA is powerless constantly telling government/GMC their concerns re overworked understaffed moral injury surveys but do nothing in the end just voice ther opinion
I'm not sure I'd use the term powerless after they managed to organise a junior doctor strike. Rather powerful I'd say. Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff