Every board I lift...

[Simpo Two]

Playing reverse devil's advocate...

Laplace said:

Cables or connector strip not fixed allowing strain to be placed on the joint.

It's in the middle of a floor - how is it going to get strained?

Laplace said:

Sheathed cables with their insulated cores exposed should be enclosed.

The location is not readily accessible therefore a junction box with maintenance free terminations should be used.

Those two points seem mutually exclusive to me.

Laplace said:

CPC continuity has not been extended

Ah no, you have me there.

I can see both sides of the debate but I can also parallel the 'Book says this' mentality with speed limits. 'The book' says that travelling at 31 in a 30 is dangerous and will kill children - but will it, really?

[Laplace]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Tedious regulations. No it's not going to explode or kill you. Even if there is a missing earth connection, there's thousands of houses all over the country done to old regulations with no earth on their lighting circuit at all, some even with metal fittings ignorantly added. The risk of death from fixed wiring is infinitesimally small. In fact so small it isn't worth thinking about. Now faulty appliances......

Probably one of the most short sighted posts I've ever read on here.

I agree there are many regulations which may appear to be tedious, but to disregard the importance of the cpc conductor would be laughable if it wasn't so absurd. And based on what, because there are thousands of households without? Please.

There is a reason electrical installations are subject to such rigorous regulation.

If every termination in every household, every office block, ever hospital, every nursery, every building etc in the UK was done to that same poor standard, are you telling me there would be zero increase in loss of life due to electrucution and electrical fires?

[CrutyRammers]

Laplace said:

CPC continuity has not been extended throughtout the circuit as it appears some cpc conductors have been chopped off. Circuit protective devices may not operate as intended and potential may rise to dangerous levels on exposed conductive parts = danger of death. (I wouldn't like to touch any metal face plates in that house.)

Edited by Laplace on Sunday 23 February 23:15

I don't think it's quite that bad The wires with the chopped earths were just going out to Gu10 fittings with no earths, radial style. Although ideally he should have left them connected at the connector end, there's actually nothing to connect them to at the light end. So I guess it'd only be a problem I suppose if someone came along later and changed the fittings to something which did need an earth, because they wouldn't know that it's been chopped further along...

[Laplace]

Simpo Two said:

Playing reverse devil's advocate...

Laplace said:

Cables or connector strip not fixed allowing strain to be placed on the joint.

It's in the middle of a floor - how is it going to get strained?

Laplace said:

Sheathed cables with their insulated cores exposed should be enclosed.

The location is not readily accessible therefore a junction box with maintenance free terminations should be used.

Those two points seem mutually exclusive to me.

Laplace said:

CPC continuity has not been extended

Ah no, you have me there.

I can see both sides of the debate but I can also parallel the 'Book says this' mentality with speed limits. 'The book' says that travelling at 31 in a 30 is dangerous and will kill children - but will it, really?

Hi Simpo

Considerations should be made for maintenance with regards to the joint and any alterations to the circuit. This is why the cable and/or means of connection should be fixed.

I've listed a few points whuch refer back to different regulations which should be considered. The two points may appear mutually exclusive but being out of easy reach does not exclude the use of an enclosure.

I'm coming at you here from the standpoint of the regs which I think is important when commenting on matters over the internet.

At the end of the day we as electricians can and will be held accountable if found to be guilty of negligence which has redulted in the loss of life. While Bs7671 is not a legal document it will be used by the courts to decide if you were indeed negligent.

[Laplace]

CrutyRammers said:

I don't think it's quite that bad The wires with the chopped earths were just going out to Gu10 fittings with no earths, radial style. Although ideally he should have left them connected at the connector end, there's actually nothing to connect them to at the light end. So I guess it'd only be a problem I suppose if someone came along later and changed the fittings to something which did need an earth, because they wouldn't know that it's been chopped further along...

No problem, I understand. I obviously don't know where the cables are going therefore I'm commenting generally but you've also gave a good reason why good working practice should always be maintained.

Fortunately the only domestic electrics I deal with these days are my own and the odd job for family and friends. As a ups engineer it's the poor sparks who do my installation work that are governed by such tedium

Edited by Laplace on Monday 24th February 00:42

[Simpo Two]

Laplace said:

I'm coming at you here from the standpoint of the regs which I think is important when commenting on matters over the internet.

Agreed. When I worked in the agrochem industry we trotted out various stuff because we represented 'the industry'. The commonest abuse I see here is people buying commercial strength pesticides for domestic use. It is illegal to buy them and use them because those formulations are stronger and have not been approved for home/garden use, and the people have not had the official training to use them, but they do it anyway for the obvious cost saving.

And so you will buy 25 litre cans of Roundup on eBay and I will use chocolate block connectors

Perhaps there should be compulsory laws and advisory laws...

[CrutyRammers]

Laplace said:

No problem, I understand. I obviously don't know where the cables are going therefore I'm commenting generally but you've also gave a good reason why good working practice should always be maintained.

Edited by Laplace on Monday 24th February 00:42

Oh agree totally. You can rest assured that I reconnected all the earths. It's not like it's much harder...well when you're using a proper JB that is.

[Spare tyre]

when we lived in a student house years ago, the boiler packed up, eventually that was fixed

About an hour later, room mate comes back, this electrics in his room were not working, but were elsewhere, odd

We waited about a week (running extension leads for room mate) and nothing happened, land lord claimed he'd already spent 500 this week, bla bla bla. One of our friends decided to investigate, the plumber has disturbed some clearly dodgy electrics and made them safe, probably being kind to the landlord.

The dodgy electrics were spurs created with the straight bits of a coat hanger running above the joists and below the floor boards, joined for about 6ft, where it went back to traditional cable. So three bare live metal, genius

If someone would have spilt a drink they would of been zapped!

[Podie]

Oooh, nasty.

We moved recently and have just had a proper fuse board fitted (existing one had no protection on lighting circuits!) and all the circuits checked.

I hate electricity. As the missus once said "you can't see it, you can't touch it, you can't smell it, you can't hit it with a hammer - it must be magic"

[CrutyRammers]

Spare tyre said:

when we lived in a student house years ago, the boiler packed up, eventually that was fixed

About an hour later, room mate comes back, this electrics in his room were not working, but were elsewhere, odd

We waited about a week (running extension leads for room mate) and nothing happened, land lord claimed he'd already spent 500 this week, bla bla bla. One of our friends decided to investigate, the plumber has disturbed some clearly dodgy electrics and made them safe, probably being kind to the landlord.

The dodgy electrics were spurs created with the straight bits of a coat hanger running above the joists and below the floor boards, joined for about 6ft, where it went back to traditional cable. So three bare live metal, genius

If someone would have spilt a drink they would of been zapped!

Stuff like that amazes me. T&E costs 1 pound a metre at my local hardware store, and would be a damn site easier to fit than bodging coat hanger wire in.

[Spare tyre]

CrutyRammers said:

Stuff like that amazes me. T&E costs 1 pound a metre at my local hardware store, and would be a damn site easier to fit than bodging coat hanger wire in.

yup, was linked with terminal strips

He was a proper tight wad, there were four of us in the house and he turned up when we were due to move in with 2 keys, he thought we'd be happy to share

[Johnnytheboy]

It turned out we spent about 7 years with the electrical wire from our boiler timer to our CH pump wrapped in copper tape, i.e. it would have been potentially live to the touch. When the plumber stumbled on this he backed away very slowly.

Luckily it wasn't a cupboard we used a great deal.

[Spare tyre]

in the same house, they had hose pipe under the floor boards instead of copper in places. I imagine it was a temporary bodge put in just as a stop gap, but never properly repaired.

between viewing and moving in i assume someone had tried to break in through the back door, his solution was just to screw the door closed rather than replace the lock, then when we asked about it being fixed he suggested just taking the screws in and out as needed

so many bodges throughout it was actually amusing

[hairyben]

Mr GrimNasty said:

Tedious regulations. No it's not going to explode or kill you. Even if there is a missing earth connection, there's thousands of houses all over the country done to old regulations with no earth on their lighting circuit at all, some even with metal fittings ignorantly added. The risk of death from fixed wiring is infinitesimally small. In fact so small it isn't worth thinking about. Now faulty appliances......

Faulty appliances...... what then? Are much, much, much less likely to present danger when connected to a system thats been professionally installed and maintained? Rather than one thats been bodgered by some lazy witless bd who thinks a few missing earth connections (and god knows what else) doesn't matter I think you'll find...