Any Party Wall Surveyors in the house?

[Daz1855]

I live in a terraced house, the house next door has been sold and they are now refurbishing it top to bottom.
The house has an existing loft conversion but the new owners want to take the dormer to the boundary at both ends. As well as the loft they are going to extend the ground floor, again full width some 4.5m from the wall.

Just to set the scene, the builders have waded in and started the job before any PWN was served or permissions have been applied for. In their haste, or just through incompetence they inadvertently removed the structural members supporting the roof/dormer. The first I knew of it was when I saw the beams sitting in the garden, realising what they must have been I called in building control. They thankfully visited the site and told them to either put something in to support the roof by the end of the day or they would come in and do it at the builders' expense, to stop the roof caving in. They did that and any meaningful work has now stopped.
I have now been served a 3.0m and Party Wall Notice. It would now seem that one of the building control people who marked their card on the work they were doing is now employed by them as their party wall surveyor!

I have some question I could do with being answered by someone who knows about this stuff:

Is it ethical for the same person to be acting for the council one day and then working for the developers the next, to me it smacks a bit of poacher turned gamekeeper?
I will be appointing an independent PWS regardless to try and look after my interests but I really wonder if it will make any difference given the borough surveyor is presumably now in their employ.

I do not want these muppets walking around on my roof to build their dormer. I think they are incompetent at best and despite them no doubt being obliged to "make good any damage" I would not like to go there in the first place. Can I refuse to allow them to work from my roof? I realise that would require a gap from the boundary to their dormer on my side but that isn't my problem.

Finally, can I stop them from putting scaffolding over the boundary, I would like to restrict them to working on their side. For the record I couldn't care less about what they do or how big it is, my only interest is in limiting damage to my property, if you saw how they work you would understand.

Sorry for the length of this post but many thanks in advance for any informed comments from anyone in the know

[Pheo]

https://www.gov.uk/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidanc...

Booklet here is a good start. Although be aware ultimately the party wall act doesn't allow you to stop works happening, only to ensure you are appropriately protected from any damage which might occur.

[Daz1855]

Pheo said:

https://www.gov.uk/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidanc...

Booklet here is a good start. Although be aware ultimately the party wall act doesn't allow you to stop works happening, only to ensure you are appropriately protected from any damage which might occur.

Thanks but the information readily available in the public domain does not answer my questions, hence why I started this thread.

[bobtail4x4]

If the BCO is also acting as PWS its s conflict of interests,

contact his head of department,

you cannot stop them working over your boundary thats one of the points of a Party wall agreement.
as yet you have not agreed, appoint your own surveyor urgently.

edit just read you are in nigeria??

[btcc123]

The OP is a Nigerian Doctor and Financial advisor who specialises in moving money about.Are you the guy who keeps E-mailing me from Nigeria who works for the government and wants to transfer large amounts of money out of the country and for my help and use of my bank account will pay me £6,000,000.

[Daz1855]

bobtail4x4 said:

If the BCO is also acting as PWS its s conflict of interests,

contact his head of department,

you cannot stop them working over your boundary thats one of the points of a Party wall agreement.
as yet you have not agreed, appoint your own surveyor urgently.

edit just read you are in nigeria??

Thanks - I have got a PWS lined up now, I am teaming up with the neighbour on the other side and we are getting one to deal with both our properties. The purpose of the thread is to find out what should be achievable, not much by the sounds of it.

I thought the combined BCO/PWS roles smacked of conflict of interests, but it is all being done in the open in council work hours so thought it must have been considered acceptable, possibly not from what you say.

I am actually in London, my profile is a little joke on my part

[Daz1855]

btcc123 said:

The OP is a Nigerian Doctor and Financial advisor who specialises in moving money about.Are you the guy who keeps E-mailing me from Nigeria who works for the government and wants to transfer large amounts of money out of the country and for my help and use of my bank account will pay me £6,000,000.

No, that is my cousin, I actually have £7,000,000 waiting for you

[Pheo]

Daz1855 said:

hanks but the information readily available in the public domain does not answer my questions, hence why I started this thread.

Well it answers your question that you can't refuse access as defined in the act

Agree, it doesn't answer if BCO can act as PWS at the same time!

[bobtail4x4]

Daz1855 said:

hanks -

I thought the combined BCO/PWS roles smacked of conflict of interests, but it is all being done in the open in council work hours so thought it must have been considered acceptable, possibly not from what you say.

just because its being done in work time, dosent mean its ok.

[Daz1855]

bobtail4x4 said:

just because its being done in work time, dosent mean its ok.

I agree with you but having made a few calls to a couple of PWSs that are not involved in this case it would seem that is regarded as ok and quite normal.

Forgetting the conflict of interest bit for a minute I doubt many car dealers would be too happy if one of their salesmen was trading cars on Autotrader during working time from the dealers's premises - but this is the council we are talking about so it is not as if productivity is very high up on the list of things to achieve.

It would seem that the purpose of the PWN is to allow people to do whatever they want to a neighbour's house as long as they make good afterwards, nothing more than that.

[ClaphamGT3]

The purpose of the act is to allow property owners to undertake works that they are lawfully entitled to undertake whilst protecting the interests of the adjoining owners.

You should be aware that the developing owner is liable to meet the adjoining owners reasonable expenses in appointing their surveyor.

Neighbourly matters are separate from and not covered by planning or building control functions so there is no conflict of interest in an LA officer acting as one of the surveyors.

Insist on a condition survey of your property, agreed between both surveyors before the works start (or, in your case, go any further) and that the developing owner's contractor/designer provide method statements for access and for completing works affecting the party wall.

Remember that the party wall surveyor can only act in accordance with the act and is not an arbitrator/solver of generic boundary disputes. Also, remember that your PWS has to act reasonably. If he does not, the adjoining owner's PWS will refer anything he thinks unreasonable to the third surveyor and if they find that your PWS has been unreasonable, you will be liable for the costs relating to their unreasonable actions

[Daz1855]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Insist on a condition survey of your property, agreed between both surveyors before the works start (or, in your case, go any further) and that the developing owner's contractor/designer provide method statements for access and for completing works affecting the party wall.

Remember that the party wall surveyor can only act in accordance with the act and is not an arbitrator/solver of generic boundary disputes. Also, remember that your PWS has to act reasonably. If he does not, the adjoining owner's PWS will refer anything he thinks unreasonable to the third surveyor and if they find that your PWS has been unreasonable, you will be liable for the costs relating to their unreasonable actions

Thanks for this advice.

I can see where this is going now so one final question if I may .................

My understanding is the builders/owners have to give the neighbours 1 month notice for excavating the foundations and 2 months notice for the steel loft beams to go in.

The PWN was dated 7th August, it was put through my door by hand 11th August, there is obviously no award in place yet, what dates do the 1&2 month notice periods start from?

[ClaphamGT3]

Daz1855 said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Insist on a condition survey of your property, agreed between both surveyors before the works start (or, in your case, go any further) and that the developing owner's contractor/designer provide method statements for access and for completing works affecting the party wall.

Remember that the party wall surveyor can only act in accordance with the act and is not an arbitrator/solver of generic boundary disputes. Also, remember that your PWS has to act reasonably. If he does not, the adjoining owner's PWS will refer anything he thinks unreasonable to the third surveyor and if they find that your PWS has been unreasonable, you will be liable for the costs relating to their unreasonable actions

Thanks for this advice.

I can see where this is going now so one final question if I may .................

My understanding is the builders/owners have to give the neighbours 1 month notice for excavating the foundations and 2 months notice for the steel loft beams to go in.

The PWN was dated 7th August, it was put through my door by hand 11th August, there is obviously no award in place yet, what dates do the 1&2 month notice periods start from?

Broadly speaking you are right on notice periods. In reality, if - God forbid - it came to it, serving of notice would be taken as the 7th.

It shouldnt take the full notice period for your surveyor and theirs to agree an award on a simple resi project and I would strongly counsel any client against stringing out the notice period for the sake of it. At the very least, you will create a confrontational relationship between you & your neighbour/their contractor and may ultimately support a wider claim of unreasonableness to the third surveyor.

The last point is highly unlikely but dont be the one in a million that goes there!

[AlmostUseful]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Broadly speaking you are right on notice periods. In reality, if - God forbid - it came to it, serving of notice would be taken as the 7th.

It shouldnt take the full notice period for your surveyor and theirs to agree an award on a simple resi project and I would strongly counsel any client against stringing out the notice period for the sake of it. At the very least, you will create a confrontational relationship between you & your neighbour/their contractor and may ultimately support a wider claim of unreasonableness to the third surveyor.

The last point is highly unlikely but dont be the one in a million that goes there!

Small point of note, but from my recollection the notice is deemed as served the day following hand delivery of a notice depending on the time of day it was delivered, so would be the 8th in this instance. Makes very little notice, but might give you an extra day's grace.

[Daz1855]

AlmostUseful said:

Small point of note, but from my recollection the notice is deemed as served the day following hand delivery of a notice depending on the time of day it was delivered, so would be the 8th in this instance. Makes very little notice, but might give you an extra day's grace.

In the interests of accuracy, the PWN must have been put through my letterbox after 10.30pm on the 10th, I didn't see it until the morning of the 11th. So I rightly/wrongly assumed that would be the day it was served.

The most important thing to me is that from what is being said here the notice periods are based on when it is served, rather than when it is awarded/agreed.

[AlmostUseful]

Daz1855 said:

n the interests of accuracy, the PWN must have been put through my letterbox after 10.30pm on the 10th, I didn't see it until the morning of the 11th. So I rightly/wrongly assumed that would be the day it was served.

The most important thing to me is that from what is being said here the notice periods are based on when it is served, rather than when it is awarded/agreed.

I'll have to dig out my notes, it's been ages since I've done any Party Wall stuff, but with I tbeing hand delivered I have a feeling it's the date on the letter that is important, not necessarily the day you read it. As unhelpful as that sounds, it's kind of just how it is!

[Daz1855]

AlmostUseful said:

I'll have to dig out my notes, it's been ages since I've done any Party Wall stuff, but with I tbeing hand delivered I have a feeling it's the date on the letter that is important, not necessarily the day you read it. As unhelpful as that sounds, it's kind of just how it is!

It does seem a little odd that someone could backdate the PWN date and then validate it by sticking it through your letterbox, rather than posting it.

Either way it would be nice to know which it is?

[ClaphamGT3]

Daz1855 said:

AlmostUseful said:

I'll have to dig out my notes, it's been ages since I've done any Party Wall stuff, but with I tbeing hand delivered I have a feeling it's the date on the letter that is important, not necessarily the day you read it. As unhelpful as that sounds, it's kind of just how it is!

It does seem a little odd that someone could backdate the PWN date and then validate it by sticking it through your letterbox, rather than posting it.

Either way it would be nice to know which it is?

Can I just re-iterate that, in reality, you are focusing on the wrong thing. The way to make the act work for you is not to obsess about service dates but to get the surveyors working together to come up with an award that protects your interests without trashing your relationship with your neighbour

[Daz1855]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Can I just re-iterate that, in reality, you are focusing on the wrong thing. The way to make the act work for you is not to obsess about service dates but to get the surveyors working together to come up with an award that protects your interests without trashing your relationship with your neighbour

Ok, got it and trust me I thank you for your input.

I have found from past experience that not everyone you employ (in any trade) is good at what they do, despite the fact they all claim to be and charge as if they are.
So as a back up plan I try to find out how everything works, keep my mouth shut and let them get on with it and if I see them stray too far from the script I then pull them up on it from a position of knowledge rather than guesswork.

So, what I am doing is trusting my PWS, who I have already nominated and has yet to contact me about it (great start) and hopefully he will get the job done.

[Johnniem]

Just to add to Clapham's good advice, neither party wall surveyor (the building owner's or the OP's) acts for their appointing owner; in reality they act in the interests of the wall but are there to protect the land and property of the adjoining owner whilst enabling the building owner (the chap doing the work) to do what he needs to do. Not all party wall situations allow access without licence; it very much depends on what the building owner intends to do and the part of the Act that is noted in his party wall notice. Your PW surveyor should advise you whether access is allowed. If it is then a 14 day notice period should be given before access can be provided.