Damage to driveway. Car dealer admitted fault. What to do?
Discussion
Hi - thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Last May (yes 10 months ago!), we had a new car. We woke up the following morning and engine fluid had been leaking onto the tarmac driveway overnight. After several discussions with the dealer and having a professional pressure wash, it still didn't move the stain on the drive and in fact the tarmac has started to break up on the surface. The manufacturer admitted fault (some guy didn't plug a hose in properly and that came attached). We are now in a process of trying to claim compensation to have our drive fixed.
We have been offered an amount to "overlay" the drive in new tarmac. However, there have been several issues with this:
1. The amount offered excludes VAT which they are claiming is to cover "wear & tear". We argued against this as ultimately getting this returned to its original condition (i.e. no stain) will involve us paying the VAT and therefore if we don't get this back, we are out of pocket. They said:
"....any settlement made follows the principle of indemnity as set out by the Courts so we have to take on board prior depreciation wear and tear and life span of items damaged. Your driveway is 10 plus years old and a deduction of 16.6% being the VAT element on the budget price we have is not unreasonable. This gives the driveway and overall life span of 60 plus years."
Sounds rubbish to us but do they have grounds?
2. We understand (although waiting on some local drive people to confirm or deny this) that overlaying will increase the height of the driveway potentially causing issues with drainage and the tarmac not matching up with some existing blockwork that edges the tarmac. We therefore think that this "overlay" approach is therefore not returning the driveway back to the same situation before we had the stain. However, are we being too fussy here?
The cost of the overlay (excluding VAT) is approx 50% that it would cost to have the tarmac layer removed and completely replaced..
Any thoughts appreciated. We are only trying to get a fair deal here but feel that as they have admitted liability, they are trying to cut corners with their offer which is either not the same as we currently have and/or we are out of pocket.
Although we would rather not, we are wondering whether we should involve lawyers to assist us...?
Last May (yes 10 months ago!), we had a new car. We woke up the following morning and engine fluid had been leaking onto the tarmac driveway overnight. After several discussions with the dealer and having a professional pressure wash, it still didn't move the stain on the drive and in fact the tarmac has started to break up on the surface. The manufacturer admitted fault (some guy didn't plug a hose in properly and that came attached). We are now in a process of trying to claim compensation to have our drive fixed.
We have been offered an amount to "overlay" the drive in new tarmac. However, there have been several issues with this:
1. The amount offered excludes VAT which they are claiming is to cover "wear & tear". We argued against this as ultimately getting this returned to its original condition (i.e. no stain) will involve us paying the VAT and therefore if we don't get this back, we are out of pocket. They said:
"....any settlement made follows the principle of indemnity as set out by the Courts so we have to take on board prior depreciation wear and tear and life span of items damaged. Your driveway is 10 plus years old and a deduction of 16.6% being the VAT element on the budget price we have is not unreasonable. This gives the driveway and overall life span of 60 plus years."
Sounds rubbish to us but do they have grounds?
2. We understand (although waiting on some local drive people to confirm or deny this) that overlaying will increase the height of the driveway potentially causing issues with drainage and the tarmac not matching up with some existing blockwork that edges the tarmac. We therefore think that this "overlay" approach is therefore not returning the driveway back to the same situation before we had the stain. However, are we being too fussy here?
The cost of the overlay (excluding VAT) is approx 50% that it would cost to have the tarmac layer removed and completely replaced..
Any thoughts appreciated. We are only trying to get a fair deal here but feel that as they have admitted liability, they are trying to cut corners with their offer which is either not the same as we currently have and/or we are out of pocket.
Although we would rather not, we are wondering whether we should involve lawyers to assist us...?
rbuk33 said:
They said:
"....any settlement made follows the principle of indemnity as set out by the Courts so we have to take on board prior depreciation wear and tear and life span of items damaged. Your driveway is 10 plus years old and a deduction of 16.6% being the VAT element on the budget price we have is not unreasonable. This gives the driveway and overall life span of 60 plus years."
Sounds rubbish to us but do they have grounds?
Yes, absolutely they do. And 60yr+ expected life sounds more than generous."....any settlement made follows the principle of indemnity as set out by the Courts so we have to take on board prior depreciation wear and tear and life span of items damaged. Your driveway is 10 plus years old and a deduction of 16.6% being the VAT element on the budget price we have is not unreasonable. This gives the driveway and overall life span of 60 plus years."
Sounds rubbish to us but do they have grounds?
rbuk33 said:
2. We understand (although waiting on some local drive people to confirm or deny this) that overlaying will increase the height of the driveway potentially causing issues with drainage and the tarmac not matching up with some existing blockwork that edges the tarmac. We therefore think that this "overlay" approach is therefore not returning the driveway back to the same situation before we had the stain. However, are we being too fussy here?
No, I'm with you on this. The overlaying is, as you suggest, just slapping more on top. It needs to be a certain thickness so as not to just break up instantly the first time somebody turns the steering on a stationary car, or the first time a bit of frost gets in. So that's going to increase the thickness, and that may well cause problems at the edging.But I'm with the Sarge. Just pass it to your insurance.
k that, let the insurance deal with it.Thanks for the responses everyone.
Yes sounds like insurance maybe the route to reduce the hassle - we were hoping this would be straight-forward given they've admitted liability but clearly not!
The driveway company who provided the quote has confirmed that it will be about 30mm higher than our existing driveway so definitely won't be the same as what we currently have. I think this is our main point.
P.S. - probably should know what the fluid was but to be perfectly honest they weren't a bit shy/embarrassed about admitting exactly what pipe had not been connected properly!
Yes sounds like insurance maybe the route to reduce the hassle - we were hoping this would be straight-forward given they've admitted liability but clearly not!
The driveway company who provided the quote has confirmed that it will be about 30mm higher than our existing driveway so definitely won't be the same as what we currently have. I think this is our main point.
P.S. - probably should know what the fluid was but to be perfectly honest they weren't a bit shy/embarrassed about admitting exactly what pipe had not been connected properly!
rbuk33 said:
Thanks for the responses everyone.
Yes sounds like insurance maybe the route to reduce the hassle - we were hoping this would be straight-forward given they've admitted liability but clearly not!
The driveway company who provided the quote has confirmed that it will be about 30mm higher than our existing driveway so definitely won't be the same as what we currently have. I think this is our main point.
P.S. - probably should know what the fluid was but to be perfectly honest they weren't a bit shy/embarrassed about admitting exactly what pipe had not been connected properly!
Civil Engineer hereYes sounds like insurance maybe the route to reduce the hassle - we were hoping this would be straight-forward given they've admitted liability but clearly not!
The driveway company who provided the quote has confirmed that it will be about 30mm higher than our existing driveway so definitely won't be the same as what we currently have. I think this is our main point.
P.S. - probably should know what the fluid was but to be perfectly honest they weren't a bit shy/embarrassed about admitting exactly what pipe had not been connected properly!
1. You need to know exactly what the fluid is. Radiator coolant & screen wash will evaporate, engine oil and petrol will stain. Diesel is a solvent when it comes to tarmac and if it is diesel that has leaked the overlay solution is incorrect, the whole damaged patch will have to come out. I had a diesel tanker drip for at least a week on a motorway refurb once and by the time we had finished the hole was 7m long and the full tarmac depth had had to come out in places. (Your drive wont be that bad!)
2. The dealership have admitted liability in principal and now need to return you to the position you were in before the leak. This means that while they can take account of the remaining life of the driveway (60 years is taking the P by the way, try 20, http://www3.hants.gov.uk/guidance_document_on_surf... they should not change the levels as this will probably compromise your damp proof course to your house. Your DPC should be a minimum of 150mm above the ground surface.
Personally OP I would get your buildings insurer on the case asap
Mandat said:
Does the whole drive need to be overlaid / re-laid?
Is it not possible to cut out the section that is damaged, and infill with new tarmac?
Yes it is possible, though probably not by your regular tarmac guy.Is it not possible to cut out the section that is damaged, and infill with new tarmac?
Assuming not a massive area the drive could be treated to a dye to blend in.
Collectingbrass said:
Civil Engineer here
1. You need to know exactly what the fluid is. Radiator coolant & screen wash will evaporate, engine oil and petrol will stain. Diesel is a solvent when it comes to tarmac and if it is diesel that has leaked the overlay solution is incorrect, the whole damaged patch will have to come out. I had a diesel tanker drip for at least a week on a motorway refurb once and by the time we had finished the hole was 7m long and the full tarmac depth had had to come out in places. (Your drive wont be that bad!)
2. The dealership have admitted liability in principal and now need to return you to the position you were in before the leak. [b]This means that while they can take account of the remaining life of the driveway (60 years is taking the P by the way, try 20[/n], http://www3.hants.gov.uk/guidance_document_on_surf... they should not change the levels as this will probably compromise your damp proof course to your house. Your DPC should be a minimum of 150mm above the ground surface.
Personally OP I would get your buildings insurer on the case asap
You do realise that assuming 60 years life rather than 20 years works in favour of the OP?!1. You need to know exactly what the fluid is. Radiator coolant & screen wash will evaporate, engine oil and petrol will stain. Diesel is a solvent when it comes to tarmac and if it is diesel that has leaked the overlay solution is incorrect, the whole damaged patch will have to come out. I had a diesel tanker drip for at least a week on a motorway refurb once and by the time we had finished the hole was 7m long and the full tarmac depth had had to come out in places. (Your drive wont be that bad!)
2. The dealership have admitted liability in principal and now need to return you to the position you were in before the leak. [b]This means that while they can take account of the remaining life of the driveway (60 years is taking the P by the way, try 20[/n], http://www3.hants.gov.uk/guidance_document_on_surf... they should not change the levels as this will probably compromise your damp proof course to your house. Your DPC should be a minimum of 150mm above the ground surface.
Personally OP I would get your buildings insurer on the case asap
t400ble said:
The drive is now breaking up, if you see the post
Hence it is being replaced - not sure what point you are trying to make?It would appear that the drive is 10 years old - the deduction for 'wear and tear' has been calculated as 10/60 = 16.6% reduction.
Had they assumed only a 20 year life span then the deduction would be 10/20 = 50%!
KrazyIvan said:
Struggling to envisage and oil stain on a 10year old tarmac drive so bad it needs the whole thing relaying. Any pics to show just how bad it is?
Likewise lolNot nice but depends on how bad it is , must be quite bad to try and get the garage/manufacturer insurance to pa for it.
I'm with the other chaps here, let your insurer deal with it. If, however, you don't want to involve them, you're in a very strong position, firstly since the dealer accepted blame and agreed he was at fault and secondly his insurers have offered you settlement.
Now it's not in your interest to accept their first or any offer, if it were me I'd get in touch with your own loss adjuster, (Google will find you one local) and get them, to negotiate on your behalf. Their fees will be paid by the other side. Discuss with your L/A what YOU want, which should as a minimum be removing the top 4 inches of tarmac and replacing with new hot rolled proper stuff.
Don#t accept a bodge job, there's no reason why you should have a second rate repair, the dealer was at fault and his insurers will pay to reinstate your drive to how it was before.
Now it's not in your interest to accept their first or any offer, if it were me I'd get in touch with your own loss adjuster, (Google will find you one local) and get them, to negotiate on your behalf. Their fees will be paid by the other side. Discuss with your L/A what YOU want, which should as a minimum be removing the top 4 inches of tarmac and replacing with new hot rolled proper stuff.
Don#t accept a bodge job, there's no reason why you should have a second rate repair, the dealer was at fault and his insurers will pay to reinstate your drive to how it was before.
sidicks said:
You do realise that assuming 60 years life rather than 20 years works in favour of the OP?!
Only if the bunch of itinerant tarmac specialists the OP's dealer has "engaged" for this job know what they are talking about, which claiming a 60 year life for a Tarmac drive and that overlaying it solves the problem suggests they don't. Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff