2 storey extension - Edwardian house

[ispcarsurvey]

Didn't realise there were quite so many posts of houses on PH. So thought I'd post plans for our current project.

Bought a 3 bed Edwardian house back end of last year that needs lots of work - was in the same family for 40+ years and more recently let out as 2 flats. Solid house but has had the period charm gutted out of it over the years so looking to bring it back to its former glory. Shot of front below:



We've gone through planning and got planning permission on the below. Annoyingly we couldn't get an extra bedroom as well as keeping 2 bathrooms (1 ensuite) upstairs so will have a guest room/study downstairs. Last few bits being sorted with building regs and getting costs in from builders at the moment.





Main things we wanted to achieve was a big open plan kitchen/family room at the back. Annoyingly the structural engineer felt we needed a column to support weight... but builders are coming back saying they can remove and use 1 big steel across the back so getting this re-looked at.





Any thoughts or suggestions welcome. Will post progress...

[Lotobear]

The column is supporting the 2 beams carrying the existing rear outrigger, then the bathroom extension is carried on a steel (cranked down at one end?) which then forms a point load connection onto the outrigger steel at the other end

It's an odd structural arrangement and to omit the column and go single span would result in a very deep section beam and I think would only make structural sense if you moved back the bathroom wall to align with the existing rear wall of the outrigger (also simplifying the roof construction and losing the valley). I would take the advice of your engineer rather than your builder.

Do you really need 2 bathrooms? - your first floor landing is quite 'mean' for what is a decent sized house. You could make the new bathroom a jack and jill arrangement with the master bed and 'win' a proper 4th bedroom. Beds = value.

I don't mean to be critical (but you did ask for suggestions) however I can't help but think that the internal space planning is a little 'unbalanced'. Decent entrance Hall, two reasonably proportioned front rooms and then a cavernous space at the rear (fashionable I know) and then a first floor which appears to be a bit of a 'quart into a pint pot'.

I think you could improve this quite a lot and now is the time to do it!

[anonymous-user]

Are you going to use the lounge in that configuration? 2 sofas facing each other with a TV on the wall to the left? I'd be making the back room a bit smaller and having a larger lounge

[Busa mav]

Do a section through the staircase :;

[ispcarsurvey]

Lotobear said:

The column is supporting the 2 beams carrying the existing rear outrigger, then the bathroom extension is carried on a steel (cranked down at one end?) which then forms a point load connection onto the outrigger steel at the other end

It's an odd structural arrangement and to omit the column and go single span would result in a very deep section beam and I think would only make structural sense if you moved back the bathroom wall to align with the existing rear wall of the outrigger (also simplifying the roof construction and losing the valley). I would take the advice of your engineer rather than your builder.

Do you really need 2 bathrooms? - your first floor landing is quite 'mean' for what is a decent sized house. You could make the new bathroom a jack and jill arrangement with the master bed and 'win' a proper 4th bedroom. Beds = value.

I don't mean to be critical (but you did ask for suggestions) however I can't help but think that the internal space planning is a little 'unbalanced'. Decent entrance Hall, two reasonably proportioned front rooms and then a cavernous space at the rear (fashionable I know) and then a first floor which appears to be a bit of a 'quart into a pint pot'.

I think you could improve this quite a lot and now is the time to do it!

Ah, should probably have explained why the upstairs is compromised... it was never planned to be so! Hence the odd arrangement and agree with your suggestions.

The only addition to upstairs is the new bathroom. Unfortunately this is all we can add to the property due to having to adhere to planning's advice/criteria with the "right to light" for our neighbour. Plan was always to have an extra bedroom up there. We were also thwarted in going into the loft as the architect we initially worked with on plans measured the height in the loft. It's about 1.5m at the back, 2m at the front. However, we are going for vaulted ceilings in a couple of rooms at the front to give more space.

Downstairs we're moving the staircase from the existing hallway to the new location off the kitchen/family room. It's a very tight fit where it currently is, so like it being more open when you come into the house.

We've seen an example of the depth of the beam we'd need - 600mm. At the moment, I think it's less of an issue than having to work around the column in the middle. But not decided on this yet.

2 vs 1 bathrooms, definitely prefer to have an ensuite. Plus like the idea of a big family bathroom with roll top bath, shower etc. Suppose we've made a couple of decisions that suits us for more of the time vs adding maximum bedrooms within the floor space. Did that in our last place (extended to 5 bedrooms in London) and ended up with a couple of rooms we rarely used but added value for when we sold.

[ispcarsurvey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Not sure yet tbh. Was just placed there on the floorplans. Not keen on turning our heads to view the TV. This room is based on existing room size - thought of opening it up but quite like the idea of a smaller, cosier lounge.

Existing floorplan below too.

[lrdisco]

I really like it.
Where are you in the country? Just interested as to the costs in different parts of the country.
My best guess on cost is £95,000 off the top of my head.

[anonymous-user]

ispcarsurvey said:

Not sure yet tbh. Was just placed there on the floorplans. Not keen on turning our heads to view the TV. This room is based on existing room size - thought of opening it up but quite like the idea of a smaller, cosier lounge.

Ahh ok, looking at the door position it might be hard to configure the room for comfortable viewing, is door placement up for review?

[ispcarsurvey]

lrdisco said:

I really like it.
Where are you in the country? Just interested as to the costs in different parts of the country.
My best guess on cost is £95,000 off the top of my head.

Based Berkshire/Buckinghamshire borders.

Got 1 quote in so far. £110k but only up to plastering walls. So no carpentry, electrics, bathrooms, flooring etc as these will be extra.

Luckily the old man has been building handmade furniture for years - http://www.sterlingdale.co.uk/. So at least that shouldn't be too expensive...

[ispcarsurvey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Yep both doors will be new. Thinking I may move them further down to give a larger uninterrupted wall space opposite the fireplaces and be able to put a sofa in... leaving that decision to the better half

[lrdisco]

Thats not too bad for your area from what I understand.
Is thgat inclusive of VAT? VAT is a killer.

[ispcarsurvey]

lrdisco said:

Thats not too bad for your area from what I understand.
Is thgat inclusive of VAT? VAT is a killer.

Ex VAT. But if we start in November we'll only pay 5% as it'll have been empty for 2 years. The plus side of everything taking so long!

Always find it interesting to see what others are quoted so copied below in case anyone else finds useful:

Footings
1.Set up site, security fence off, portaloo, skip etc. Demolish/take away existing structures at rear of building. Mark out foundations as per drawings, dig/remove spoil to a depth of 1m x 600mm wide footings, pour with ready-mix-concrete to a depth of 375mm below D.P.C, build up to D.P.C using 1 course trench blocks, 2 courses engineering bricks creating 100mm cavity, lay D.P.C connected to existing. £11,800

Floor
2.Break out existing floor area to a depth of 525mm below D.P.C. Dispose of spoil, compact, build up new floor comprising of 150mm consolidated, compacted hardcore, sand blinding, D.P.M lapped over D.P.C 100mm floor insulation, mesh, 150mm concrete sub-floor, 75mm screed to match existing floor levels.
£8700

Drainage
3.To dig out/move existing man-holes, block up run where necessary, supply/install new man-holes, 4inch underground pipe run. Dig out/install/ line, connect to existing sewer, supply/install new gulleys for kitchen/waste, rainwater gulleys/soakaway, take away all spoil, back-fill, compact to re-instate.
£6450

Walls
4.Supply/install Furfis wall starters to all existing wall connections, build walls as per drawings of ground floor up to plate level, supply/install columns/RSJs/padstones/pillars as per drawings/walls to take 2nd storey brickworks, continue build of 2nd storey extension to roof plate level as per drawings. Install catnics to all reveals, brick ties. Insulation to cavities between walls. £38,750

Flatroof structure/Ground/Top/Main roof
5.Supply/erect scaffolding to cut/fix 7x2 timbers for flat roof into RSJ, bolt where necessary fit pieces to top to create falls from front to back, 18mm OJB roof insulation, 18mm WPB, trims to finish, double trim out for roof lights – to be supplied – lead flashing all round to weatherseal, gutters, downpipes.


Extension/Top roof/Main roof
6.To cut/pitch new extension roof, strip off back of existing roof to marry new/old roofs together, creating valleys at intersection for rainwater, hipped roof at furthest rear elevations, double trim at stress points, membrane, batten, tile to match existing roof. Supply/install valleys, lead flashing, ridge tiles, hip tiles cement pointed, gutters/downpipes to new extension areas discharged to new gulleys to include cranked RSJ, posts, welding for top flat roof.
£36,500

Structural
7.Remove existing chimney at rear throughout to ground floor, existing back/side wall/roof. Dig out padstones as per drawings /supply bolt erect columns/RSJ to create open plan living on ground floor, bedroom above, with no pillar on ground floor.

Windows/Doors
8. Costs T.B.C on survey/choice of materials/new/existing

Electrics
9.Costs T.B.C on specification given, survey of existing electrics

Plumbing
10.Costs T.B.C on specification given, survey of existing main/heating/pipeworks

Existing Internal Modification
11.Costs T.B.C on full specification given/Bathroom/En-suite/toilet/stair re-location/plastering/electrics/plumbing/carpentry/vaulted ceilings

Plasterboard/Studwork/Skimming
12.To supply/board all walls/ceilings/RSJ/Columns in new extension areas, make good structural works, straighten up walls, skim all new extension ceilings to a smooth finish ready for decoration.
£11,700

Total build cost £113,900

[anonymous-user]

ispcarsurvey said:

Yep both doors will be new. Thinking I may move them further down to give a larger uninterrupted wall space opposite the fireplaces and be able to put a sofa in... leaving that decision to the better half

[Busa mav]

Staircase, it doesn't work !

Headroom over the first flight.

Even if you take a huge lump out of the bedroom above to sort the headroom, it fails building regs with the door opening in at the bottom.

[ispcarsurvey]

Busa mav said:

Staircase, it doesn't work !

Headroom over the first flight.

Even if you take a huge lump out of the bedroom above to sort the headroom, it fails building regs with the door opening in at the bottom.

Just double checked the 100+ page PDF with calculations etc and can't see a cross section with head heights. But they've double checked this worked (plenty of things didn't from our initial architect's drawings) and hasn't come up with building regs.

What would be the issue with the door? Just so I can pose the question.

[Busa mav]

Staircase does not have enough headroom !

Look at the 4/ 5th riser

Bottom riser needs to be 400mm from the sweep of the door, open out would solve the issue.

Edited by Busa mav on Saturday 23 September 06:51

[ispcarsurvey]

Busa mav said:

Staircase does not have enough headroom !

Look at the 4/ 5th riser

Bottom riser needs to be 400mm from the sweep of the door, open out would solve the issue.

Edited by Busa mav on Saturday 23 September 06:51

That all makes sense - thank you. Will check in with the architect/engineer.

[ispcarsurvey]

Busa mav said:

Staircase does not have enough headroom !

Look at the 4/ 5th riser

Bottom riser needs to be 400mm from the sweep of the door, open out would solve the issue.

Edited by Busa mav on Saturday 23 September 06:51

I definitely owe you a pint! Wasn't enough headroom - 2 architects have drawn up and not mentioned. Bulkhead apparently will work but will eat into the room above now. Annoying but not the end of the world.

[Busa mav]

After 40 plus years at a drawing board , things like that glare at you.

You definitely don't want a bulkhead in that room.

Start with the floor to floor dimension and see how many risers you need , then have a play.

I also believe , like some others have mentioned , that there is likely to be a better layout within that space.

Buy a tracing pad , overlay the existing floor plans and scribble away

[TA14]

ispcarsurvey said:

Main things we wanted to achieve was a big open plan kitchen/family room at the back. Annoyingly the structural engineer felt we needed a column to support weight... but builders are coming back saying they can remove and use 1 big steel across the back so getting this re-looked at.

Single beam side to side above the middle of the dining room table should do it. 406? LHS is no problem with a big footing for the wall. RHS is more tricky with the drain and existing building so worst case is three mini piles. Then it's front to rear trimmers below the upstairs room and a side to side trimmer below the stepped back wall. Why pay £113K for something that you don't want when you can have ideal for £117K? (Unless you haven't got the extra of course... )