Home automation
Discussion
So.....
Back on topic!
The problem a lot of people and installers have in our industry is that they tend to have a fixed view of the market. The number of projects I walk into and find a previous installer has just swallowed one wholesalers product line totally without looking at the whole market offering is amazing. In my opinion very narrow minded if you want to offer clients the best solution for them rather than make a fast buck and leave them with bits missing off thier wish list. This is a very fluid market place with this years supposed 'hot' products appearing all the time. So we as installers have to stay with it and our ideas have to evolve with the markets and demands of clients. The amount of money installers should be wasting on new products to test and evaluate them is significant. I know I do!
I think there are three very different market propsitions available today, all have the positives and negatives and all have different appeals depending on what you want as a client. To me these break down into the following - although there is alway the exception to a rule and PH is full of those!! Lol.
DIY, SIngle, Gadget Head, usually First Time Buyer or EmptyNester, Tinkerer.
Very much a do it yourself, have a go, see what this is all about, bleeding edge tech. Happy to put up with a few foiballs (spelling) and the 'unique' way it does something or needs resetting every day / week / month or so. If it doesnt work, it didnt cost to much to shrug sholders and move on, replace or just bin. But budget is important and the diy wow factors have bragging rites with your mates. This isnt Home Automation, the various bits of kit will rarely talk to each other, trigger events in a different manufacturers domain. Only the geekiest of TechHeads will do this with a Rasberry Pi or the like.
Family House, Techie, Ease of Use / Simplified living, 2nd or holiday home.
User of the more established brands and not at the bleeding edge but can be close, will let something settle for a little while before committing. Likes to have a joined up approach, not nessisarily everything in one platform, but maybe things can talk to each other and cause reactions etc. Usually centred around entertainment and security because of family, althought environmental and energy efficiency is catching up fast. Partners and kids dont suffer the Gadget Head / DIY'er approach. If you want it, it has to work and resetting it even monthly is not going to be acceptable in 'others' eyes. Some automation will start to creep in, some hardware can track time or weather and autonomously adjust lighting times or heating to hit target levels when needed. Some system will start to trigger other events in other brands. Some users will accept a folder on thier phone or tablet with all the apps in one place, others with want a layer of control sitting over the apps, managing and sending commands out to devices as needed or programmed.
The Luxury House, Budget isnt the limiting factor, wow factor or keeping up with jones is.
These are the cribs we have all seen, and I have been lucky to work in a few. Although decreasing cost and increasing functionality has opened it up to a far greater market. Single platform for control, functions and hardware, occasionally bringing 3rd party systems or devices to meet requirements. You can bring as many different things into it as you want and the system can be programmed to listen and react to other actions. Should be ultra reliable never need resetting, works for years with the odd service and update, for which the old school names often still win out, because they are a known brand, bloody reliable and proven, friends have it, its a must have brand when living this type of lifestyle. This is still very much a control system, running to a fixed set of rules and protocals programmed into it. Even now, the turly Autonomous House, where it can think, make descissions for itself and most importantly learn! is still a way off. Installers at this end of the market can still get it very wrong, you need deep pockets to do it well and properly, I have two rescue projects coming that could easily be the worst I have seen.
But, the market is changing and quite rapidly. I had a student working for me over the summer just buying and playing with Apple HomeKit stuff to see where that market is. Why HomeKit (HK)? because it is a home control system primarily rather than a voice (digital) PA. I like the idea that when the phone leave the house, the appleTV box and I believe the new HomePod will take over running the show, so you can be mobile and still control HomeKit stuff in the home. Amazon and Google are just cottoning on to this. However at the moment I think the tech is right on the boarder of the DIY / Family Home brackets. The limiting factor is that every manufacturer seems to want to have a hub! So if you want HomeKit to control lights, heating, Audio Visual stuff that isnt Apple, then you need a hub for almost every manufacturers product you want inside the HK ecosystem. So I have to pick and choose my product mix carefully to minimise the explosion of hubs. At the moment, 2nd Gen Lightwave RF and the Elgato Eve range seem to offer a good package, the Lightwave RF hub even has contact closure inputs so that dumb 3rd party things can trigger actions within the HK eco system, which I like. However after a summer of looking at it, I still dont think it is quite there / complete. I am, however, looking forward to a time soon when it is.
Again, I am rambling, but if you are looking at doing something with Smart Home Automation / Control in your house. DON'T do one thing at the very begining, DON'T look at products! Look at and review what you want to do. It is the first thing I ask my clients, well actually I usually say 'Stop!, Take a giant step back and tell be what you want to achieve, not what products you want to use.' Because 80% of the time there is something better out there or when you drill down to the base line, they need something far less complicated than they think they want. You'll be amazed at the number of clients that think they want a light in the bathroom or utility to be part of the big lighting control system, when actually they can save hundreds if not thousands by just having a local lux and pir sensor. Its sole function is to turn the light on for 10mins, but only if it is dark enough and someone is in there!
Thanks for indulging me, hope that helps some of you.
V.
Back on topic!
The problem a lot of people and installers have in our industry is that they tend to have a fixed view of the market. The number of projects I walk into and find a previous installer has just swallowed one wholesalers product line totally without looking at the whole market offering is amazing. In my opinion very narrow minded if you want to offer clients the best solution for them rather than make a fast buck and leave them with bits missing off thier wish list. This is a very fluid market place with this years supposed 'hot' products appearing all the time. So we as installers have to stay with it and our ideas have to evolve with the markets and demands of clients. The amount of money installers should be wasting on new products to test and evaluate them is significant. I know I do!
I think there are three very different market propsitions available today, all have the positives and negatives and all have different appeals depending on what you want as a client. To me these break down into the following - although there is alway the exception to a rule and PH is full of those!! Lol.
DIY, SIngle, Gadget Head, usually First Time Buyer or EmptyNester, Tinkerer.
Very much a do it yourself, have a go, see what this is all about, bleeding edge tech. Happy to put up with a few foiballs (spelling) and the 'unique' way it does something or needs resetting every day / week / month or so. If it doesnt work, it didnt cost to much to shrug sholders and move on, replace or just bin. But budget is important and the diy wow factors have bragging rites with your mates. This isnt Home Automation, the various bits of kit will rarely talk to each other, trigger events in a different manufacturers domain. Only the geekiest of TechHeads will do this with a Rasberry Pi or the like.
Family House, Techie, Ease of Use / Simplified living, 2nd or holiday home.
User of the more established brands and not at the bleeding edge but can be close, will let something settle for a little while before committing. Likes to have a joined up approach, not nessisarily everything in one platform, but maybe things can talk to each other and cause reactions etc. Usually centred around entertainment and security because of family, althought environmental and energy efficiency is catching up fast. Partners and kids dont suffer the Gadget Head / DIY'er approach. If you want it, it has to work and resetting it even monthly is not going to be acceptable in 'others' eyes. Some automation will start to creep in, some hardware can track time or weather and autonomously adjust lighting times or heating to hit target levels when needed. Some system will start to trigger other events in other brands. Some users will accept a folder on thier phone or tablet with all the apps in one place, others with want a layer of control sitting over the apps, managing and sending commands out to devices as needed or programmed.
The Luxury House, Budget isnt the limiting factor, wow factor or keeping up with jones is.
These are the cribs we have all seen, and I have been lucky to work in a few. Although decreasing cost and increasing functionality has opened it up to a far greater market. Single platform for control, functions and hardware, occasionally bringing 3rd party systems or devices to meet requirements. You can bring as many different things into it as you want and the system can be programmed to listen and react to other actions. Should be ultra reliable never need resetting, works for years with the odd service and update, for which the old school names often still win out, because they are a known brand, bloody reliable and proven, friends have it, its a must have brand when living this type of lifestyle. This is still very much a control system, running to a fixed set of rules and protocals programmed into it. Even now, the turly Autonomous House, where it can think, make descissions for itself and most importantly learn! is still a way off. Installers at this end of the market can still get it very wrong, you need deep pockets to do it well and properly, I have two rescue projects coming that could easily be the worst I have seen.
But, the market is changing and quite rapidly. I had a student working for me over the summer just buying and playing with Apple HomeKit stuff to see where that market is. Why HomeKit (HK)? because it is a home control system primarily rather than a voice (digital) PA. I like the idea that when the phone leave the house, the appleTV box and I believe the new HomePod will take over running the show, so you can be mobile and still control HomeKit stuff in the home. Amazon and Google are just cottoning on to this. However at the moment I think the tech is right on the boarder of the DIY / Family Home brackets. The limiting factor is that every manufacturer seems to want to have a hub! So if you want HomeKit to control lights, heating, Audio Visual stuff that isnt Apple, then you need a hub for almost every manufacturers product you want inside the HK ecosystem. So I have to pick and choose my product mix carefully to minimise the explosion of hubs. At the moment, 2nd Gen Lightwave RF and the Elgato Eve range seem to offer a good package, the Lightwave RF hub even has contact closure inputs so that dumb 3rd party things can trigger actions within the HK eco system, which I like. However after a summer of looking at it, I still dont think it is quite there / complete. I am, however, looking forward to a time soon when it is.
Again, I am rambling, but if you are looking at doing something with Smart Home Automation / Control in your house. DON'T do one thing at the very begining, DON'T look at products! Look at and review what you want to do. It is the first thing I ask my clients, well actually I usually say 'Stop!, Take a giant step back and tell be what you want to achieve, not what products you want to use.' Because 80% of the time there is something better out there or when you drill down to the base line, they need something far less complicated than they think they want. You'll be amazed at the number of clients that think they want a light in the bathroom or utility to be part of the big lighting control system, when actually they can save hundreds if not thousands by just having a local lux and pir sensor. Its sole function is to turn the light on for 10mins, but only if it is dark enough and someone is in there!
Thanks for indulging me, hope that helps some of you.
V.
Edited by VEX on Sunday 28th January 21:53
Lighting control and simple scene setting is a great way to take control of your house.
But, a lot of installers get it wrong. Because we live in this bubble of tech, we know how to use it, it is simple. If we are not careful we program to our knowledge and acceptance of it, not the users, or even worse the users mother-in-law! (although mine would have loved it)
Keep it simple and everone will enjoy it.
Happy to help out if needed.
V.
But, a lot of installers get it wrong. Because we live in this bubble of tech, we know how to use it, it is simple. If we are not careful we program to our knowledge and acceptance of it, not the users, or even worse the users mother-in-law! (although mine would have loved it)
Keep it simple and everone will enjoy it.
Happy to help out if needed.
V.
essayer said:
Yipper said:
Know someone who's just got a wireless chip implanted in their hand and uses it to open and close all the doors to their home and office.
They commute by train and pretty much now have a keyless life.
It looks cool and they love not having to worry about losing keys ever again.
https://dangerousthings.com/shop/xnti/They commute by train and pretty much now have a keyless life.
It looks cool and they love not having to worry about losing keys ever again.
$99, install at your own risk!
Some of the enterprise-grade implantables now are getting as small as a grain of rice.
I do love your posts Vex, you offer a really fascinating insight for someone who is very enthusiastic & confident (though not always competent) DIYer, who you summed up perfectly.
My Media Centre setup works 90% of the time, for 90% of the devices but it is a perfectly complicatedly bodgedly wonderful attempt at something my budget & initial skillset wouldn't allow - it'd make you cross eyed trying to deicer how I have made it work.
Ill have to try and get some pictures & map it out just to give Pistonhead's something to giggle at.
Please do post more!
My Media Centre setup works 90% of the time, for 90% of the devices but it is a perfectly complicatedly bodgedly wonderful attempt at something my budget & initial skillset wouldn't allow - it'd make you cross eyed trying to deicer how I have made it work.
Ill have to try and get some pictures & map it out just to give Pistonhead's something to giggle at.
Please do post more!
VEX said:
wow, did I shut everyone down! sorry / not sorry.
V.
Looks that way thanks Vex. Good write up by the way it’s the way I see it. The biggest risk our industry has is the home dabbler/diy enthusiast not getting it right and spouting off about it down the pub. Fortunately they usually don’t go to the same pub as the keeping up the Jones’s ones. V.
I have been working on the houses on the Wentworth Estate of late and the mind boggles sometimes with the wants of control. However I have been in to fix a lighting system that had been added to soo many times the control of garden lights was impossible (too many scenarios). Complete re-rewrite of the Lutron program!
lol, you should see the system in a ultra high end apartment I am just about to remove! (moving out and taking components with them)
12 Sky boxes, one per room, but if you hit the record button in the master bathroom, you have to go back to the master bathroom to watch it! Bonkers.
Looking forward to putting it back into the new apartment, properly!
12 Sky boxes, one per room, but if you hit the record button in the master bathroom, you have to go back to the master bathroom to watch it! Bonkers.
Looking forward to putting it back into the new apartment, properly!
Edited by VEX on Thursday 1st February 14:34
That’s exactly why I ask people how many people are likely to want to watch different things or how many people live here.
That usually ends up in worst scenario with
Dads Sky
Mums Sky
Son 1 Sky
Son 2 Sky
Daughter Sky
Guest Sky
It means they have a lot of sources but can watch their box where ever.
It’s normal though to have
Sky Box 1
Sky Box 2
Records are always on 1 as 2 is just a player, changing with SkyQ now though.
That usually ends up in worst scenario with
Dads Sky
Mums Sky
Son 1 Sky
Son 2 Sky
Daughter Sky
Guest Sky
It means they have a lot of sources but can watch their box where ever.
It’s normal though to have
Sky Box 1
Sky Box 2
Records are always on 1 as 2 is just a player, changing with SkyQ now though.
Has anyone else had a play with Home Assistant (https://home-assistant.io/)?
I fall into the geeky tinkerer camp and have a set up running on a raspberry pi controlling lights (Hue), AV (via Logitech Harmony and some Kodi set ups) and a few wemo switches. Controlled via web page, app or a slew of Echos/Dots.
Its quite powerful for automations especially once you set up presence detection. Not for the faint hearted however but is getting easier to use with each version
I want to add heating (Nest), security and possibly locks but am struggling to get it past the chair of the committee for various reasons ("Is it secure" - "We don't want you to screw up the heating during winter" etc). She has (possibly rightly) no faith in my abilities to get it all working!.
If you look at the website there are some very impressive DIY set ups out there.
Jim
I fall into the geeky tinkerer camp and have a set up running on a raspberry pi controlling lights (Hue), AV (via Logitech Harmony and some Kodi set ups) and a few wemo switches. Controlled via web page, app or a slew of Echos/Dots.
Its quite powerful for automations especially once you set up presence detection. Not for the faint hearted however but is getting easier to use with each version
I want to add heating (Nest), security and possibly locks but am struggling to get it past the chair of the committee for various reasons ("Is it secure" - "We don't want you to screw up the heating during winter" etc). She has (possibly rightly) no faith in my abilities to get it all working!.
If you look at the website there are some very impressive DIY set ups out there.
Jim
re: homeassistant.io, I tried it with the server in a docker container.
usual opensource [1], too much of a PITA to be day-to-day usable and is lacking IMHO compared to the native applications for Hue, Tado, Hive, Homekit etc.
Too much admin and stroking required.
Plus it looks a mess with the bazillon icons at the top.
Others may have a differing view ;-)
[1] shairport-sync is an exception.
usual opensource [1], too much of a PITA to be day-to-day usable and is lacking IMHO compared to the native applications for Hue, Tado, Hive, Homekit etc.
Too much admin and stroking required.
Plus it looks a mess with the bazillon icons at the top.
Others may have a differing view ;-)
[1] shairport-sync is an exception.
chasingracecars said:
dmsims said:
I agree, Fibre in terms of bandwith is not going to be of any use in your lifetime
4K from Netflix uses a fraction of good old 100Mb ethernet
Exactly! There is no need for Fibre in any situation I can think of (expect distance runs).4K from Netflix uses a fraction of good old 100Mb ethernet
The only reason I would run Fibre to main locations is because 5 years ago Cat5 was more then good enough. Now you really need shielded Cat6 cable as more people are adopting 4k and 8k is knocking on our door. I can see applications where the screen could be split and with a Fibre connection to the screen it could show multiple feeds, ie. Live TV and PIP CCTV of the drive or front door that appears on motion detection. This can currently be done at the rack end but I can see the logic of Fibre in the future.
Besides if you put fibre in you need to decide if you are going for OM3 or OM4
Not to mention copper is kind of useful for PoE devices...
JimboM3 said:
I fall into the geeky tinkerer camp and have a set up running on a raspberry pi controlling lights (Hue), AV (via Logitech Harmony and some Kodi set ups) and a few wemo switches. Controlled via web page, app or a slew of Echos/Dots.
That’s exactly what I want to do. Did you create from scratch or follow some sort of guide online?I have hue lights, nest thermostat and arlo cameras which is like to control from one app/webpage using raspberry pi as a server but not sure how to go about it.
Long time listener, first time caller etc...
Re homeassistant, the place to start is here, for the £20 cost of a raspberry pi you'll be up and running in less than an hour.
Expect a bit of a learning curve (the config files are written in YAML for instance), but you can build a solution more powerful and integrating many more components and services than anything Crestron, Control4 and the like can manage.
It is however not a competitor for the like of Crestron. It is now (and I suspect will always remain) a platform for the 'tinkerers'. I happen to enjoy the challenge (troubleshooting is fun!) - 99.99% of people probably wouldn't.
Someone above mentioned the 'mess of icons' - if you don't want to break out the text editor and make things look / work exactly as you like then this probably isn't the solution for you. But if, like me, you want your Sonos speaker to tell you that your journey to work is going to take 10 minutes longer than usual this morning when you get in the shower...
Re homeassistant, the place to start is here, for the £20 cost of a raspberry pi you'll be up and running in less than an hour.
Expect a bit of a learning curve (the config files are written in YAML for instance), but you can build a solution more powerful and integrating many more components and services than anything Crestron, Control4 and the like can manage.
It is however not a competitor for the like of Crestron. It is now (and I suspect will always remain) a platform for the 'tinkerers'. I happen to enjoy the challenge (troubleshooting is fun!) - 99.99% of people probably wouldn't.
Someone above mentioned the 'mess of icons' - if you don't want to break out the text editor and make things look / work exactly as you like then this probably isn't the solution for you. But if, like me, you want your Sonos speaker to tell you that your journey to work is going to take 10 minutes longer than usual this morning when you get in the shower...
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff