Electricians of PH please help!
Discussion
Back story: I’m mid-way through returning my kitchen to its original location as the 1970’s extension is to far removed from the heart of the house to be any use and after 5 years I’m doing what was always planned and putting it back.
I’ve done most of the work with the help of myself with some help on plumbing, worktops and oven/Induction hobs being done by pro’s but I;m now stumped with more electrics.
Question: As it stands I have two power points available (1x single & 1x double) that I need to turn into at least 3x double sockets and the single and I’m wondering what connectors and/or junction boxes (?) I may require?
The existing single is required for the fridge but needs to be extended to add a double in another wall, is this feasible?. The 1x existing double can be done away with if I can run at least two more double sockets from it? Hoping to avoid full on rewires as it’s a budget remodel of the kitchen.
The spark I used for my oven/hob would get the work but he’s a family member who charged £25ph for the oven after years of me doing things like house removals an donating furniture and carpets when he needed one.
I’ve done most of the work with the help of myself with some help on plumbing, worktops and oven/Induction hobs being done by pro’s but I;m now stumped with more electrics.
Question: As it stands I have two power points available (1x single & 1x double) that I need to turn into at least 3x double sockets and the single and I’m wondering what connectors and/or junction boxes (?) I may require?
The existing single is required for the fridge but needs to be extended to add a double in another wall, is this feasible?. The 1x existing double can be done away with if I can run at least two more double sockets from it? Hoping to avoid full on rewires as it’s a budget remodel of the kitchen.
The spark I used for my oven/hob would get the work but he’s a family member who charged £25ph for the oven after years of me doing things like house removals an donating furniture and carpets when he needed one.
If the sockets are part of the ring main then it should not be a problem.
I would say to just extend the ring to include each of the new sockets but it is not quite that simple. How many sockets are already on the ring? What load will this extended ring take?
If you do not know how to extend a ring then this is a job for an electrician - suitably qualified.
The fact that you have even asked the question without supplying further information suggests that you should not attempt this work unless supervised by an electrician at the least.
On the up side it does not sound like a huge task so should be a reasonable price - even less if you do the chasing for the cables and fitting the back boxes etc. that would just leave the electrician to connect up and test.
I would say to just extend the ring to include each of the new sockets but it is not quite that simple. How many sockets are already on the ring? What load will this extended ring take?
If you do not know how to extend a ring then this is a job for an electrician - suitably qualified.
The fact that you have even asked the question without supplying further information suggests that you should not attempt this work unless supervised by an electrician at the least.
On the up side it does not sound like a huge task so should be a reasonable price - even less if you do the chasing for the cables and fitting the back boxes etc. that would just leave the electrician to connect up and test.
So many things to go wrong if you don't know exactly what you are doing, the circuit needs fully testing first before you add extra sockets. If its fine then it may be ok to extend but how many rings already in the house? if its just the one then it needs a new ring for the kitchen ideally.
I've recently done just this to add a few sockets into my study and also an extra few in the bedroom.
Someone will soon come along and tell me my house will burn down, but as far as I'm aware its legal to extend an existing circuit yourself.
Essentially you'll need a wago box, some wago connectors and some T&E. You can then remove one of the cables from an existing socket, extend it using a wago connector and wire it to your new socket. The ring can be complete by taking a new cable back to the old socket.
Someone will soon come along and tell me my house will burn down, but as far as I'm aware its legal to extend an existing circuit yourself.
Essentially you'll need a wago box, some wago connectors and some T&E. You can then remove one of the cables from an existing socket, extend it using a wago connector and wire it to your new socket. The ring can be complete by taking a new cable back to the old socket.
marting said:
I've recently done just this to add a few sockets into my study and also an extra few in the bedroom.
Someone will soon come along and tell me my house will burn down, but as far as I'm aware its legal to extend an existing circuit yourself.
Essentially you'll need a wago box, some wago connectors and some T&E. You can then remove one of the cables from an existing socket, extend it using a wago connector and wire it to your new socket. The ring can be complete by taking a new cable back to the old socket.
I won't be the first or last to criticise You, you are right it may not burn down. However, are you 100% confident your protective device will operate in the required max disconnection time after you've done what you have? What was the earth resistance like before you added on? What was the fuse or breaker rating, and how does that tie in with the earth and circuit resistance at the furthest point of your modified circuit?Someone will soon come along and tell me my house will burn down, but as far as I'm aware its legal to extend an existing circuit yourself.
Essentially you'll need a wago box, some wago connectors and some T&E. You can then remove one of the cables from an existing socket, extend it using a wago connector and wire it to your new socket. The ring can be complete by taking a new cable back to the old socket.
Are you confident you extended a ring, rather than spurring off a radial?
And finally, what certification did you provide, and what test results did you note on it?
You will of course be aware that you'll need a certificate for what you did yea?
Edited by 200Plus Club on Monday 22 January 21:34
Its not really the technical aspects that are the problem, I dont think it really matters if a MCB trips off in 0.2 or 0.3 seconds and it probably wont burn down if you plug a new printer into your new office socket. But extend an existing "ring" into the kitchen with half a dozen extra sockets and you will never know its never been a ring until you plug the toaster/washing machine/dryer/kettle/ hot tap etc. into it and bad things start to happen.
A £5 test meter would tell you enough but if you don't know how to use it....
A £5 test meter would tell you enough but if you don't know how to use it....
https://electrical.theiet.org/building-regulations...
Would be helpful for the OP and the other chap to read I imagine. Wago connectors and additional cabling extending a socket ring without any test certs or knowledge is probably why they brought Part P out to start with. I'm no domestic sparky but I certainly wouldnt buy or rent a property with anything like this malarkey lol
Would be helpful for the OP and the other chap to read I imagine. Wago connectors and additional cabling extending a socket ring without any test certs or knowledge is probably why they brought Part P out to start with. I'm no domestic sparky but I certainly wouldnt buy or rent a property with anything like this malarkey lol
200Plus Club said:
I'm no domestic sparky but I certainly wouldnt buy or rent a property with anything like this malarkey lol
How would you know any work has been carried out? I've just moved and I have an electricians report from when the house was rewired X years ago, but who knows whats happened since then?200Plus Club said:
https://electrical.theiet.org/building-regulations...
Would be helpful for the OP and the other chap to read I imagine. Wago connectors and additional cabling extending a socket ring without any test certs or knowledge is probably why they brought Part P out to start with. I'm no domestic sparky but I certainly wouldnt buy or rent a property with anything like this malarkey lol
First time I saw Wago connectors was when our local (fully certified/qualified) electician used then in our house and swore by them. Just looking at any screw terminal chocolate block wiring gives me the willies now. (You're right about the rest, though...)Would be helpful for the OP and the other chap to read I imagine. Wago connectors and additional cabling extending a socket ring without any test certs or knowledge is probably why they brought Part P out to start with. I'm no domestic sparky but I certainly wouldnt buy or rent a property with anything like this malarkey lol
marting said:
200Plus Club said:
I'm no domestic sparky but I certainly wouldnt buy or rent a property with anything like this malarkey lol
How would you know any work has been carried out? I've just moved and I have an electricians report from when the house was rewired X years ago, but who knows whats happened since then?Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .
Edited by 200Plus Club on Monday 22 January 22:56
200Plus Club said:
marting said:
I've recently done just this to add a few sockets into my study and also an extra few in the bedroom.
Someone will soon come along and tell me my house will burn down, but as far as I'm aware its legal to extend an existing circuit yourself.
Essentially you'll need a wago box, some wago connectors and some T&E. You can then remove one of the cables from an existing socket, extend it using a wago connector and wire it to your new socket. The ring can be complete by taking a new cable back to the old socket.
I won't be the first or last to criticise You, you are right it may not burn down. However, are you 100% confident your protective device will operate in the required max disconnection time after you've done what you have? What was the earth resistance like before you added on? What was the fuse or breaker rating, and how does that tie in with the earth and circuit resistance at the furthest point of your modified circuit?Someone will soon come along and tell me my house will burn down, but as far as I'm aware its legal to extend an existing circuit yourself.
Essentially you'll need a wago box, some wago connectors and some T&E. You can then remove one of the cables from an existing socket, extend it using a wago connector and wire it to your new socket. The ring can be complete by taking a new cable back to the old socket.
Are you confident you extended a ring, rather than spurring off a radial?
And finally, what certification did you provide, and what test results did you note on it?
You will of course be aware that you'll need a certificate for what you did yea?
Edited by 200Plus Club on Monday 22 January 21:34
Stop talking sense!
200Plus Club said:
Depending upon the age and condition and if you need a mortgage the lenders may insist on a full test and certificate. You won't spot connectors hidden obviously but it should pick up any crosses, spurs and the like. Anyhoo, I'm out of here, life is too short for another PH sparkfest lol
Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .
I think you’re just making stuff up now. Never heard of a lender asking for an electrical test, all they care about is a valuation.Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .
Edited by 200Plus Club on Monday 22 January 22:56
marting said:
I think you’re just making stuff up now. Never heard of a lender asking for an electrical test, all they care about is a valuation.
I think you need an EICR (or EIR? whichever is the shorter one!) if you're going to rent the place out. We sure as s
t didn't need one for our mortgage, surveyor recommended a rewire when he saw the old rewirable type wylex fuseboard.marting said:
200Plus Club said:
Depending upon the age and condition and if you need a mortgage the lenders may insist on a full test and certificate. You won't spot connectors hidden obviously but it should pick up any crosses, spurs and the like. Anyhoo, I'm out of here, life is too short for another PH sparkfest lol
Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .
I think you’re just making stuff up now. Never heard of a lender asking for an electrical test, all they care about is a valuation.Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .
Edited by 200Plus Club on Monday 22 January 22:56
mickmcpaddy said:
Its not really the technical aspects that are the problem, I dont think it really matters if a MCB trips off in 0.2 or 0.3 seconds and it probably wont burn down if you plug a new printer into your new office socket. But extend an existing "ring" into the kitchen with half a dozen extra sockets and you will never know its never been a ring until you plug the toaster/washing machine/dryer/kettle/ hot tap etc. into it and bad things start to happen.
A £5 test meter would tell you enough but if you don't know how to use it....
It is not whether it trips in 0.2 or 0.3s that is really important. It is whether it trips at all! (or in 30 minutes or whatever which is still too late). Loop impedance measurements really are important to safety and it takes more than a £5 meter to measure them unless you really really know what you are doing. A £5 test meter would tell you enough but if you don't know how to use it....
And yes, this is not just theoretical. I have tested circuits where you might has well replace the MCB with a 6 inch nail for all the good it was doing.
what i always find fascinating with these is that people will happily undertake work way outside their safe scope of knowledge, on something that could happily kill them, or their loved ones, or burn down their property. i have no issues with people replacing a light fitting, or broken socket front etc.
splitting ring mains and /or installing new outlets etc without testing it before and after is just asking for trouble.
maybe its time a similar scheme to Gas Safe applied with prison terms possible for meddling.
splitting ring mains and /or installing new outlets etc without testing it before and after is just asking for trouble.
maybe its time a similar scheme to Gas Safe applied with prison terms possible for meddling.
200Plus Club said:
I have no issues with people replacing a light fitting, or broken socket front etc, splitting ring mains and /or installing new outlets etc without testing it before and after is just asking for trouble.
^^I'm curious about this^^: I've done plenty of DIY electrics in the past (before part P...)- adding spur sockets, light fittings,etc. Given common sense about earths, not mixing live and neutral, making decent secure connections and using appropriate rating cable, etc, what *is* the trouble that you're asking for? Is it any worse than letting people rewire 13 amp plugs and replace fuses?Just to add to this topic. I’m competent with electrics I understand how it works, loop-in testing etc etc.
I am not a qualified spark nor do I have a part P. If you are working on a special area such as Kitchen or bathroom you will need it signed off or show evidence of this when it comes to resale - a competent surveyor/conveyancer will specifically ask about changes or modifications to the house. You could of course lie about and deny all knowledge...
A building notice or BCO inspection will come in around £350. I paid a pair of trusty sparks £50 more to have it all done and signed off.
It really is a no brainier - get the professional in cos it may well be cheaper!!
I am not a qualified spark nor do I have a part P. If you are working on a special area such as Kitchen or bathroom you will need it signed off or show evidence of this when it comes to resale - a competent surveyor/conveyancer will specifically ask about changes or modifications to the house. You could of course lie about and deny all knowledge...
A building notice or BCO inspection will come in around £350. I paid a pair of trusty sparks £50 more to have it all done and signed off.
It really is a no brainier - get the professional in cos it may well be cheaper!!
Edited by stanwan on Tuesday 23 January 13:33
200Plus Club said:
Depending upon the age and condition and if you need a mortgage the lenders may insist on a full test and certificate. You won't spot connectors hidden obviously but it should pick up any crosses, spurs and the like. Anyhoo, I'm out of here, life is too short for another PH sparkfest lol
Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .
Yet at daughter's newly acquired house complete with shiny certificate, the kitchen under-unit 12V lamps had stopped working due to the speaker wire they were done with melting. I further found the kitchen sockets were reverse polarity.Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .
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