Electricians of PH please help!

[200Plus Club]

Sheepshanks said:

200Plus Club said:

Depending upon the age and condition and if you need a mortgage the lenders may insist on a full test and certificate. You won't spot connectors hidden obviously but it should pick up any crosses, spurs and the like. Anyhoo, I'm out of here, life is too short for another PH sparkfest lol
Ps, please do get a competent sparky to test and certify what you did, if only for your own safety .

Yet at daughter's newly acquired house complete with shiny certificate, the kitchen under-unit 12V lamps had stopped working due to the speaker wire they were done with melting. I further found the kitchen sockets were reverse polarity.

So you are we within your rights to contact the appropriate body ie NICEIC or ECA for whoever signed off the certificates and report them. An inspector can come out and look into shoddy work signed off incorrectly. There are cowboys in all industry. You'd do the same if a gas fitter left your home at risk with shoddy work that leaked.

Edited by 200Plus Club on Tuesday 23 January 15:04

[200Plus Club]

silentbrown said:

^^I'm curious about this^^: I've done plenty of DIY electrics in the past (before part P...)- adding spur sockets, light fittings,etc. Given common sense about earths, not mixing live and neutral, making decent secure connections and using appropriate rating cable, etc, what *is* the trouble that you're asking for? Is it any worse than letting people rewire 13 amp plugs and replace fuses?

That's the crux of the matter. You and many others despite best intentions do not appreciate the electrical requirements and how to test (where appropriate). Realistically as with most of the regs concerning domestic electrics they left it all fuzzy and grey with the debacle of part P anyway. It should be a lot more clear cut imho. No additional points (sockets or lights) without certification regardless and only by a qualified engineer.

It's all well and good knowing how to physically add a socket or fused spur, to an existing circuit. What if the circuit in question isn't earthed back at the board? What if someone is sharing the neutral for another circuit they added before you came along? You don't know because competency extends into understanding testing and theory, the actual manual work is piss easy to be honest, hence you get differing grades of electrician in industry paid different rates. That's a whole different argument to be fair tho.

[SteellFJ]

Thank you all, to confirm the main kitchen appliances like Oven and Hb are on a separate higher power ring.

I'll look at whats needed to get the other areas tested and take some advice on what to do there from the spark i didn't want to ask just to be safe. I did look at those wago boxes and wasn't sure thats what i needed hence my post yesterday.

Also sorry for the long delay been manic 24 hours and had to SORN my Mondeo

[200Plus Club]

SteellFJ said:

Thank you all, to confirm the main kitchen appliances like Oven and Hb are on a separate higher power ring.

I'll look at whats needed to get the other areas tested and take some advice on what to do there from the spark i didn't want to ask just to be safe. I did look at those wago boxes and wasn't sure thats what i needed hence my post yesterday.

Also sorry for the long delay been manic 24 hours and had to SORN my Mondeo

hey its always interesting on a PH electrical thread lol, part of the entertainment! :-)

[SteellFJ]

200Plus Club said:

hey its always interesting on a PH electrical thread lol, part of the entertainment! :-)

[brman]

silentbrown said:

200Plus Club said:

I have no issues with people replacing a light fitting, or broken socket front etc, splitting ring mains and /or installing new outlets etc without testing it before and after is just asking for trouble.

^^I'm curious about this^^: I've done plenty of DIY electrics in the past (before part P...)- adding spur sockets, light fittings,etc. Given common sense about earths, not mixing live and neutral, making decent secure connections and using appropriate rating cable, etc, what *is* the trouble that you're asking for? Is it any worse than letting people rewire 13 amp plugs and replace fuses?

If the existing installation is up to scratch, ie was installed properly and nothing has failed then yes, you could possibly get away with doing it without testing.
It would be like changing a boiler without checking the flue. It would probably work fine but if there was something wrong you would never know until things went really wrong. And saying "it is not my fault, I didn't touch that bit" looks a bit lame when someone is dead or a house burnt down.......

Is it worse than letting someone DIY a plug or a fuse? Well, I would say it is down to risk. Mess up a plug wiring or fuse and there is still the fixed wiring and protection to help. ie RCDs will trip on a earth current, short line to neutral and the MCB will go. A melting cable will probably be noticed.
If you haven't got an RCD or MCB that works (either because of a faulty device or poor loop impedance etc) or that smoldering cable is hidden under the floorboards, not in plain sight then you have no backup. Things go pear shaped quickly and are likely to have more serious consequences......

[silentbrown]

200Plus Club said:

What if the circuit in question isn't earthed back at the board? What if someone is sharing the neutral for another circuit they added before you came along?

..both of which are Bad Things, but unrelated to the changes I would have made, surely?

[Alucidnation]

ThunderSpook said:

However you’re doing it in a kitchen, so you do need it to be signed off.

Wrong.

[Alucidnation]

stanwan said:

If you are working on a special area such as Kitchen..... you will need it signed off

And another wrong.

[200Plus Club]

silentbrown said:

200Plus Club said:

What if the circuit in question isn't earthed back at the board? What if someone is sharing the neutral for another circuit they added before you came along?

..both of which are Bad Things, but unrelated to the changes I would have made, surely?

so if you've added a fused spur, and nicely connected up the earth at your end to the one provided, but at the board end or inbetween someone snipped that earth, or its broken off at a connection etc, where is your safe path to prevent someone getting a shock off the appliance you connected in a fault condition perhaps?

or you add a light in a kitchen for instance, and use a "borrowed" neutral off a socket, or other light circuit as people often do once they've run a switch wire under the cupboards. you go to work on your circuit, pull a fuse or turn off a breaker, and you dont have a correct isolation, your shared neutral can potentially be live on a fault elsewhere, or have current flowing in it when you thought all was safe.

the regs are there for a reason, anyone can DIY and will, however you do see some shocking (no pun intended) lash ups in domestic environments. (neutral and live crossed in a spur, so the fuse was innefective, bullet connectors on a lighting circuit buried in plaster, earths often cut off (nowhere to put them so not needed, rip em out), chocolate block connectors on showers etc.

with the best will in the world and no disrespect to sparkies, anyone almost can wire up a socket and spur it, or add an additional lighting point from an existing ceiling rose. my favourite is when friends ask for help with the 4 black wires they pulled out of the ceiling when changing a fitting. :-)

[brman]

silentbrown said:

..both of which are Bad Things, but unrelated to the changes I would have made, surely?

So you would be happy to have wired up a socket to circuit that had the live and earth linked just because it was unrelated to the changes you made? Even though plugging anything class 1 into that socket would likely kill someone?

And before you dismiss the live to earth link as fanciful, I have seen it. Nail though a cable shorting downstream earth to line but breaking earth to fuseboard. Earth at downstream lights is live and only found when I was called out because the customer kept on getting a shock from the screw heads on the light switch........ (no RCD so nothing tripped).
If someone had added a class 1 (earthed metal) light fitting to that circuit without bothering to check first they would likely be dead the first time they tried to change the light bulb!

I'll be honest, before I started doing electrics as a job I did loads of electrical work on mine and friends/families houses and I was pretty relaxed about testing. Now having been into lots of random customer houses I am much more up tight about it. It makes you blood run cold to see what dangers lurk in systems that "work just fine".

[silentbrown]

brman said:

So you would be happy to have wired up a socket to circuit that had the live and earth linked just because it was unrelated to the changes you made? Even though plugging anything class 1 into that socket would likely kill someone?

err... No However, they'd be just as dead if they'd plugged it into an existing socket on the circuit...

I think a regular testing regime (every N years, or when a house is sold, maybe) might make sense, in addition to what we have at present.

[stanwan]

Alucidnation said:

And another wrong.

Maybe I should have done it myself then?

[200Plus Club]

silentbrown said:

err... No However, they'd be just as dead if they'd plugged it into an existing socket on the circuit...

I think a regular testing regime (every N years, or when a house is sold, maybe) might make sense, in addition to what we have at present.

No regulations on domestic gas servicing either, no obligation for your own home, only if you are a landlord. Would generate a mini boom in the economy if we had both done regularly!

[mickmcpaddy]

I had a very bizarre fault on a house last year, lady had just bought the property and wanted an inspection doing. There were quite a few things wrong but one fault I found was no earth at a socket, unscrewed the front and the earth was there but not connected and was floating about with a terminal block on the end. Single cable so obviously an extra socket spurred off.

I connected the earth back into the socket and retested and it still showed no earth, traced the cable run back and found a short floorboard with a joint box under it, took the lid off and the earth had been disconnected at that end as well. Maybe I shouldn't have done it live but when I tried to connect the earth back into the terminal in the JB there was a big flash and a bang.

After a bit of head scratching I traced the cable back and it turns out that when whoever wired the socket put the floorboard back he nailed straight through the cable and shorted the live to the earth and instead of repairing it he or she just disconnected the earth at each end.

No imagine someone just sticking the earth wire back in the socket earth and leaving it, as soon as someone plugged something metal into that socket it would have been live, no RCD on the circuit either. Potentially fatal scenario. You always have to test everything you do, even if its only a cursory test. As I mentioned earlier, if you only had a £5 multimeter a volt check across live and earth should show 240 volts if the earth is present or a reduced voltage if the earth is bad, similarly a continuity check between the ends of the ring will show if there is a break in it, but you have to know how to intemperate the readings.

Years and years ago a loop tester was a lamp and lampholder with a pair of test leads coming off it, lamp bright=good earth, lamp dull=bad earth.

[ThunderSpook]

All the arguments now seem to be you shouldn’t do your own electrics because there could already be a problem with your electrics. That doesn’t really have anything to do with the argument though about adding new bits to circuits and whether that should be allowed.

Personally I’m currently doing my own electrics in my house. When I see things like the neutral and earth taken from another circuit for the fairly recently installed boiler, which presumably being a gas boiler would have been professionally installed and certified as safe, I am not convinced of the idea that you need to call a pro in when I’m doing a better job than some of them by the looks of it.

Flame suit on

[mickmcpaddy]

ThunderSpook said:

All the arguments now seem to be you shouldn’t do your own electrics because there could already be a problem with your electrics. That doesn’t really have anything to do with the argument though about adding new bits to circuits and whether that should be allowed.

Personally I’m currently doing my own electrics in my house. When I see things like the neutral and earth taken from another circuit for the fairly recently installed boiler, which presumably being a gas boiler would have been professionally installed and certified as safe, I am not convinced of the idea that you need to call a pro in when I’m doing a better job than some of them by the looks of it.

Flame suit on

You are correct in a way, plenty of so called sparks are just cowboys, been on a 5 week course, given a scam provider a few hundred quid and are let loose on punters properties, its all wrong, there are lots of meticulous DIYers that are far superior.

However I wouldn't dream of altering or extending any circuit until I have thoroughly checked the existing circuit first, usually if I can I install a separate circuit for whatever I'm doing. At the very least I would check a ring is actually a ring, there is an RCD on the circuit, the circuit is properly earthed, no dodgy alterations else where on the circuit - like wall lights wired directly from the back of a socket etc. I do reckon though that the norm is to encounter a circuit that has been butchered as opposed to come across an un-molested one.

[s91]

Would the PH electrical experts have an issue with a DIYer moving a light switch?

i.e. disconnect existing cable from ceiling rose, connect new cable and run it to the new location and fit the new switch.

[brman]

ThunderSpook said:

All the arguments now seem to be you shouldn’t do your own electrics because there could already be a problem with your electrics. That doesn’t really have anything to do with the argument though about adding new bits to circuits and whether that should be allowed.

Personally I’m currently doing my own electrics in my house. When I see things like the neutral and earth taken from another circuit for the fairly recently installed boiler, which presumably being a gas boiler would have been professionally installed and certified as safe, I am not convinced of the idea that you need to call a pro in when I’m doing a better job than some of them by the looks of it.

Flame suit on

Are they? I can see lots of arguments that if you do it yourself you should do it properly. I must have missed those that said you should not do it at all regardless of your competence.......

Given the crap work I have seen done by crap electricians I totally agree. I decent DIYer could do it better. But he won't be doing it better than an average spark if he doesn't test it!

[brman]

silentbrown said:

brman said:

So you would be happy to have wired up a socket to circuit that had the live and earth linked just because it was unrelated to the changes you made? Even though plugging anything class 1 into that socket would likely kill someone?

err... No However, they'd be just as dead if they'd plugged it into an existing socket on the circuit...

I think a regular testing regime (every N years, or when a house is sold, maybe) might make sense, in addition to what we have at present.

So you agree that testing is necessary. You just don't think it necessary when modifying a circuit? I am not following the logic there.......