Plug Melted - Potential causes?
Discussion
silentbrown said:
If not MK, then what?
Going on what I pull out and bin most regularly, I'd avoid LAP, legrand, and all DIY shop s
tty sub brands. Most branded stuff is fine and has low failure rates these days, even quite budget brands like BG. MK sockets aren't that terrible (it's their consumer units that catch fire) but they certainly aren't the premium product they're marketed as. I've always liked crabtree and keep meaning to try Hagar as their consumer units are head and shoulders above most, but as said wiring accessories are not on my list of things where paying for premium is really worth it.
Is it ever unplugged? had spiders web got on it, we had a hot plug on a Bose we plugged in for a party, i remember getting it out the loft and thinking I must get that spiders web off, then never did, didn’t notice until the party was over
Must go round and visually inspect stuff more often I guess
Must go round and visually inspect stuff more often I guess
scottyp123 said:
Ok, I can see where you are coming from with this one but the terminals in a socket are rated for the full load of what the ring can supply, don't forget that there are also two paths back on a ring main so the socket terminals only get round about half of the total current through them depending on where they are on the ring.
If the screws are loose then you could have an overloading problem where as with your method the wagos can't come loose but the socket still has screws to come loose anyway so its still a failure point in the circuit causing the same sort of damage.
Also your method would be a regs breach, wired your way it would be a ring of wagos with every socket spurred from the wagos, the regs say that you can't have more spur sockets than you have ring sockets and you wouldn't have any sockets on the ring.
Maybe a socket with wago terminals instead of screw terminals would be a good thing, like the surewire ones on lighting circuits. Certainly speed up installation methods.
1) Screwed terminals are maintenance terminals. They need maintenance, so need access. Why? because expansion & contraction, vibration, ramming p[lugs in and out over time, can work the screws loose over time. If the screws are loose then you could have an overloading problem where as with your method the wagos can't come loose but the socket still has screws to come loose anyway so its still a failure point in the circuit causing the same sort of damage.
Also your method would be a regs breach, wired your way it would be a ring of wagos with every socket spurred from the wagos, the regs say that you can't have more spur sockets than you have ring sockets and you wouldn't have any sockets on the ring.
Maybe a socket with wago terminals instead of screw terminals would be a good thing, like the surewire ones on lighting circuits. Certainly speed up installation methods.
2) The current of the ring when using Wagos does not run through the socket terminals, only through the Wagos. Current only runs though the socket terminal when current is being drawn from that socket and it is switched on and running. The socket terminal is not in the main current path.
3) Using Wagos the socket does not double up as terminal box. Sockets make bad terminal boxes.
4) Not against the regs. No regs says any such a thing, as what you wrote. Regs say only one socket off one terminal junction off the ring at a time - a spur. That is what this is, only one socket off the ring. There is no limit to the number of sockets on a ring. It is limited to floor area. One ring cannot cover no more than 100 square metres of floor area.
5) If the terminal on one socket came loose the damage would be minimal, as it is confined to that socket only, which is no more than a 13A draw, and only when that socket is on and drawing current.
6) The main current in the ring, runs only through the maintenance free Wagos, maintaining the rings integrity.
7) The sockets are connected via flexible wires for ease of screwing home, not on solid wires, which are not designed for moving.
8) The Wago can be fitted on the 1st fix, then the cable tested. The plasterers do their work then a simple and very quick task of fitting the sockets using flex cable for the second fix.
9) Flex socket tails can be cut and easily fitted to many sockets and FCUs, which can 40 or more in a normal house, on a bench using ferrules for the screwed end of the flex.
10) Testing the 1st fix immediately, means no going back ruining plaster if a fault found after testing, which is currently always after 2nd fix. Sparks have to pay for re-plastering if replacing their defective cables.
11) Using sockets with Wago connections would eliminate loose terminals, but we do not have them yet, as they have in Germany. Having Wago sockets would make the whole approach foolproof, quick and and easier.
Edited by RayTay on Monday 7th June 18:32
RayTay said:
11) Using sockets with Wago connections would eliminate loose terminals, but we do not have them yet, as they have in Germany. Having Wago sockets would make the whole approach foolproof, quick and and easier.
The sooner, the better.Edited by RayTay on Monday 7th June 02:20
megaphone said:
RayTay said:
megaphone said:
RayTay said:
silentbrown said:
If not MK, then what?
Hager, Schneider. And for the record, MK hasn't been regarded as a quality product by the electrical trade this century - hot products in all the wrong ways.
The old MK sockets had proper knurled terminal screws with built in washers, that restisted working loose far longer. The new Honeywell versions are poor in comparison.
Edited by RayTay on Monday 7th June 18:44
RayTay said:
megaphone said:
RayTay said:
megaphone said:
RayTay said:
silentbrown said:
If not MK, then what?
Hager, Schneider. And for the record, MK hasn't been regarded as a quality product by the electrical trade this century - hot products in all the wrong ways.
The old MK sockets had proper knurled terminal screws with built in washers, that restisted working loose far longer. The new Honeywell versions are poor in comparison.
Edited by RayTay on Monday 7th June 18:44
shopper150 said:
I have no knowledge about these types of things, but it amazes me that technology hasn’t been used to improve safety standards for these types of things over the years.
Someone did invent a solution years ago in the form of a thermistor - basically any point at risk of overheat would have said thermistor (which is temperature sensitive resistor) between phase and earth with very high resistance when cold, but if heated up resistance drops and current leaks to earth, triggering the RCD to cut supply. Was supposed to be cheap and effective and would be on everything but I dunno what happened....TBF though while a burnt out socket looks (and smells) a bit grim it's unlikely to burn your house down. The plastic is self extinguishing.
RayTay said:
scottyp123 said:
Ok, I can see where you are coming from with this one but the terminals in a socket are rated for the full load of what the ring can supply, don't forget that there are also two paths back on a ring main so the socket terminals only get round about half of the total current through them depending on where they are on the ring.
If the screws are loose then you could have an overloading problem where as with your method the wagos can't come loose but the socket still has screws to come loose anyway so its still a failure point in the circuit causing the same sort of damage.
Also your method would be a regs breach, wired your way it would be a ring of wagos with every socket spurred from the wagos, the regs say that you can't have more spur sockets than you have ring sockets and you wouldn't have any sockets on the ring.
Maybe a socket with wago terminals instead of screw terminals would be a good thing, like the surewire ones on lighting circuits. Certainly speed up installation methods.
1) Screwed terminals are maintenance terminals. They need maintenance, so need access. Why? because expansion & contraction, vibration, ramming p[lugs in and out over time, can work the screws loose over time. If the screws are loose then you could have an overloading problem where as with your method the wagos can't come loose but the socket still has screws to come loose anyway so its still a failure point in the circuit causing the same sort of damage.
Also your method would be a regs breach, wired your way it would be a ring of wagos with every socket spurred from the wagos, the regs say that you can't have more spur sockets than you have ring sockets and you wouldn't have any sockets on the ring.
Maybe a socket with wago terminals instead of screw terminals would be a good thing, like the surewire ones on lighting circuits. Certainly speed up installation methods.
2) The current of the ring when using Wagos does not run through the socket terminals, only through the Wagos. Current only runs though the socket terminal when current is being drawn from that socket and it is switched on and running. The socket terminal is not in the main current path.
3) Using Wagos the socket does not double up as terminal box. Sockets make bad terminal boxes.
4) Not against the regs. No regs says any such a thing, as what you wrote. Regs say only one socket off one terminal junction off the ring at a time - a spur. That is what this is, only one socket off the ring. There is no limit to the number of sockets on a ring. It is limited to floor area. One ring cannot cover no more than 100 square metres of floor area.
5) If the terminal on one socket came loose the damage would be minimal, as it is confined to that socket only, which is no more than a 13A draw, and only when that socket is on and drawing current.
6) The main current in the ring, runs only through the maintenance free Wagos, maintaining the rings integrity.
7) The sockets are connected via flexible wires for ease of screwing home, not on solid wires, which are not designed for moving.
8) The Wago can be fitted on the 1st fix, then the cable tested. The plasterers do their work then a simple and very quick task of fitting the sockets using flex cable for the second fix.
9) Flex socket tails can be cut and easily fitted to many sockets and FCUs, which can 40 or more in a normal house, on a bench using ferrules for the screwed end of the flex.
10) Testing the 1st fix immediately, means no going back ruining plaster if a fault found after testing, which is currently always after 2nd fix. Sparks have to pay for re-plastering if replacing their defective cables.
11) Using sockets with Wago connections would eliminate loose terminals, but we do not have them yet, as they have in Germany. Having Wago sockets would make the whole approach foolproof, quick and and easier.
Edited by RayTay on Monday 7th June 18:32
Its only since wago type connectors have come onto the market that screw down terminals all of a sudden seem to have an issue, what usually happens is an inventor of a new product (Wago) lobbies the government about how dangerous screw terminals are and try's to get the new problem written into the regs and hey presto screw terminals are suddenly deadly.
Wago's are the be all and end all of fixing problems either, I don't like the lever ones at all, we have had a couple of incidences where when used on switches with a few cables in them the levers catch on the cables as you are pushing the switch back and open the wago back up.
As for the number of spurs exceeding the ring sockets, it was a reg but apparently not anymore it would seem, was in the 15th edition and I remember it but its not anymore, I'd still say its good practice though. Anyway rings are old hat nowadays, we hardly fit them its either a 20A 2.5 radial or in kitchens a 32A 4mm radial, much easier to install and test.
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