Plug Melted - Potential causes?
Discussion
smifffymoto said:
Whilst Ray Tay’s method may be accepted now(not really sure it is),back when I was “on the tools” you would have been called ‘rough’ and laughed off site.
Yes, by Sparks who always did it this way - since 1981. The laugh is on them. They laugh at anything outside their direct experience. They laughed at screwless connections on downlighters as well, when they came out. Analyse, do not go on old wives tales and myth. Wagos are not new, but new in the UK on uptake. Few electricians know that the Wago is maintenance free - that is the wire has a constant torque applied. They can be put behind walls with no access. Screwed terminals need access, as they work loose over time. A Wago is a vastly superior connection than a screwed terminal, with the correct torque always applied, and they do not work loose. BTW, the biggest cause of electrical fires is loose connections.
16mm screwless Wagos are used in commercial applications and have been for decades. Look at this showing a 16mm Wago terminal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9kFoLgawT4
It is TOTALLY legal. Why would it not be? It is far safer. Those electricians in the know use it saving a ton of time - especially in testing - the 1st fix can be easily tested before the finishing trades move in. Over time it is far SAFER.
BTW, the Germans are looking to have dual L&N busbars in consumer units with RCBOs having Wago connections -totally screwless. I am sure those electricians would laugh at that as well.
Edited by RayTay on Tuesday 8th June 14:40
scottyp123 said:
To be truthful I was trying to be diplomatic, in all honesty I agree with Teddy, I think its a stupid idea. Screw terminals in the back of sockets are more than capable of carrying the load of the ring circuit without any long term problems. There must be many millions of screwed terminals in existence that have been there for many years without any sort of issue what so ever.
Its only since wago type connectors have come onto the market that screw down terminals all of a sudden seem to have an issue, what usually happens is an inventor of a new product (Wago) lobbies the government about how dangerous screw terminals are and try's to get the new problem written into the regs and hey presto screw terminals are suddenly deadly.
Wago's are the be all and end all of fixing problems either, I don't like the lever ones at all, we have had a couple of incidences where when used on switches with a few cables in them the levers catch on the cables as you are pushing the switch back and open the wago back up.
As for the number of spurs exceeding the ring sockets, it was a reg but apparently not anymore it would seem, was in the 15th edition and I remember it but its not anymore, I'd still say its good practice though. Anyway rings are old hat nowadays, we hardly fit them its either a 20A 2.5 radial or in kitchens a 32A 4mm radial, much easier to install and test.
Screw terminals are a recipe for disaster. They work loose over time, that is why they have to be re-torqued, using a periodic electrical test. A friend asked me look at his 35 year system. The CU is now outdated but had an RCD in it. I went around the sockets. All were loose, needing tightening. One when the socket was loosened off, the N cables fell out. I torqued up all the sockets and CU terminals. Not one was correct. The old MK sockets were still in good nick as was the wiring. I suggested replacing two FCUs, also the CU, using DP RCBOs and an SPD, if any major work is to be done. Its only since wago type connectors have come onto the market that screw down terminals all of a sudden seem to have an issue, what usually happens is an inventor of a new product (Wago) lobbies the government about how dangerous screw terminals are and try's to get the new problem written into the regs and hey presto screw terminals are suddenly deadly.
Wago's are the be all and end all of fixing problems either, I don't like the lever ones at all, we have had a couple of incidences where when used on switches with a few cables in them the levers catch on the cables as you are pushing the switch back and open the wago back up.
As for the number of spurs exceeding the ring sockets, it was a reg but apparently not anymore it would seem, was in the 15th edition and I remember it but its not anymore, I'd still say its good practice though. Anyway rings are old hat nowadays, we hardly fit them its either a 20A 2.5 radial or in kitchens a 32A 4mm radial, much easier to install and test.
Look the picture of the terminal on the rear of the socket at the beginning of this thread. I see selective amnesia has set in.
Running the load of a ring or radial though socket terminal is not a good approach at all. Running the current through superior Wagos is.
The regs are only one spur off one tapping on the ring.
Edited by RayTay on Tuesday 8th June 15:34
scottyp123 said:
Anyway rings are old hat nowadays, we hardly fit them its either a 20A 2.5 radial or in kitchens a 32A 4mm radial, much easier to install and test.
Yes, there are advantages to rings. They have been widespread in the UK for 75 years. They have been found to be very safe.♦ Cheapness, as smaller and easier to install wires can be used;
♦ Two ways for the earth back to the consumer unit;
♦ Another is a large number of sockets can be off one cheap ring;
♦ Having the same number of sockets using radials would mean multiple radials and multiple extra breakers at the main panel. Far more cable, expense, labour and hassle;
♦ The 32A breaker and 13A fuse in the plug ensures safety.
♦ Portable plug-in appliances on a ring cannot exceed approx 3kW. Some plug-in ovens are on rings;
♦ Rings usually have a 32A breaker at the main panel - can be a smaller value;
♦ Using push-fit maintenance free Wago type connectors to connect up the ring makes them a lot safer as not being screwed connections they do not work loose. The ring's current does not run through the socket terminals;
♦ The British plugs are designed with rings in mind having a max 13A fuse in them - can be as low as a 1A fuse in the plug to suit the appliance. Small flex and appliance? Then a smaller fuse;
♦ Rings in the UK are limited by square metres of floor space, with no limit the number of sockets on the ring. 100 square metres of floor space for 2.5mm cable for a 32 amp final ring .
Radials are also used in the UK, rings are not mandatory, but used because they are generally trouble free, safe. They can be installed using rule-of-thumb. These days a ring will be on an RCD or RCBO - these now are becoming DP, so safer again. In one job in an office, they wanted more socket outlets for extra desk computers. It was a simple matter of extending the existing ring with the extra sockets as the current draw was low. Cheap and easy. If radials were used three radial circuits would be needed, which would mean an extra consumer unit, breakers, wire etc, then far more labour.
Some disadvantages are:
♦ Rings are more difficult to fault find. But electricians have no problem once the ring is full understood;
♦ Another is that if a number of high current drawing appliances are on one side of the ring, say near to the main panel, most of the current draw may be down one cable of the ring which is rated below the main 32A breaker. 2.5mm cable is rated at 27A max. Although tests have proven the cables do not exceed their current capacity, just an imbalance in distribution of the two cables from the main panel (consumer unit). Good circuit design will prevent this, negating this disadvantage. Balanced rings can be installed by daisy chaining to alternative socket outlets on the ring. That is the first appliance will draw from one side of the ring, the second socket will draw from the other side, and so on round-robin. Or use 4mm cable to the point where heavy current drawing appliances are then 2.5mm for the rest, if it is that troubling for some. Using 4mm cable on one side of a ring and 2.5mm on the other, is still cheaper than a bunch of radial circuits.
Overall I consider one ring superior to a bunch of radials needing their own breakers at the main panel. They are simpler, cheaper, being proven to be safe and worked well over the past 75 years. You will have to give a very convincing argument for me to give up rings. I have not heard one yet.
Wagos are not a new idea and are in widespread use in the UK. The only issue with them is that they are relatively expensive and require funny shaped boxes to use but other than that they're great. Push fit connectors I'm not convinced on because although in principle they work perfectly and are maintenance free (again, this is not a "new" idea in the UK by any stretch!) it is easy to not push the cable in far enough and they don't work very well with stranded cable.
Wiring a "ring" main in bits of flex spurred off junctions made of wagos shoved into the back of a pattress box is not something that is traditionally done in the UK because it's a completely rubbish idea and it doesn't make any sense. Using a wago INSTEAD of a caged screw terminal IS a good idea.
Buying cheap s
tty components off the internet and wiring them in badly will cause problems no matter how many wagos you use. Some of us have also discovered the RCBO and our consumer units are no longer made out of wattle and daub.
Wiring a "ring" main in bits of flex spurred off junctions made of wagos shoved into the back of a pattress box is not something that is traditionally done in the UK because it's a completely rubbish idea and it doesn't make any sense. Using a wago INSTEAD of a caged screw terminal IS a good idea.
Buying cheap s
tty components off the internet and wiring them in badly will cause problems no matter how many wagos you use. Some of us have also discovered the RCBO and our consumer units are no longer made out of wattle and daub. Edited by StoatInACoat on Tuesday 8th June 15:29
StoatInACoat said:
Wagos are not a new idea and are in widespread use in the UK. The only issue with them is that they are relatively expensive and require funny shaped boxes to use but other than that they're great. Push fit connectors I'm not convinced on because although in principle they work perfectly and are maintenance free (again, this is not a "new" idea in the UK by any stretch!) it is easy to not push the cable in far enough and they don't work very well with stranded cable.
There are:1). Lever types of Wagos - these take solid and stranded cable.
2). Push fit connectors - these take only solid cable. You are suppose to push it in then pull back to ensure it is firmly home.
The quality products are see though clear plastic, making it clear if you have pushed the cable home enough, as the copper wire can be seen.
StoatInACoat said:
Wiring a "ring" main in bits of flex spurred off junctions made of wagos shoved into the back of a pattress box is not something that is traditionally done in the UK because it's a completely rubbish idea and it doesn't make any sense. Using a wago INSTEAD of a caged screw terminal IS a good idea.
Read what I wrote and understand it. Saying something is rubbish with nothing to back it up does not hold. Wild opinion.It is not done because few know of that procedure.
Edited by RayTay on Tuesday 8th June 18:05
Dave_ST220 said:
Why, is this day & age do we NOT have screwless accessories? Seems madness to me seeing as fixed cabling is all solid core! Is this the next big thing waiting to be "invented"?
New in the backward UK. Look at the responses of using Wagos, which make things faster and maintain the integrity of a ring circuit, preventing the full current running through the back of a stressed terminal screwed socket. In Germany, they are heading clearly to screwless, even Wago connection sockets, which have two connectors for each of L, N & E on the back, so one in and one out. Look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pk7dENH9u4
Some countries, like Australia, only have 2.5mm stranded cable with the earth wire insulated, unlike the cheap and nasty solid T&E, with a separate earth sheath to slide on, that we have. Flexible wires are ideal for sockets, as the connection in a screwed terminal is pretty well guaranteed as no stress is on the terminal when pushing in the socket, as is the case when pushing in sockets on solid cable in small tight boxes.
Edited by RayTay on Tuesday 8th June 18:20
No-one is saying Wagos are crap, I think they are excellent, I use them all the while in switch boxes for the neutrals. I like the downlights with the push in connectors also but I don't think there is anything wrong with screw terminals on sockets and switches either. Today I 2nd fixed a house and all my screw terminals are absolutely fine, there is no reason they will come loose over the years, I've ripped out loads of old sockets/switches/junction boxes, some 50 or more years old and the terminals were still as tight as the day they were fitted.
9 times out of 10 its the way they are fitted, the only screwdriver some so called sparks possess is the neon one. Wagos are about 15p each, why add 45p to the cost of a socket and have to chop a deeper box in the wall to accommodate them, there is no chance you are getting a twin socket and 3x3 or 4 way Wagos to go back flush in a 25mm box.
If you want to crack on doing it the wago way then thats absolutely fine, its your time and money but I won't bother and I'm more than happy to carry on the way I'm going.
Actually just in case you are a Wago rep can I point out I don't actually use the Wago brand, I use the Ideal ones, they are a bit cheaper than Wagos and I find them easier to handle, Wagos tend to be a bit slippy for me for some reason.
9 times out of 10 its the way they are fitted, the only screwdriver some so called sparks possess is the neon one. Wagos are about 15p each, why add 45p to the cost of a socket and have to chop a deeper box in the wall to accommodate them, there is no chance you are getting a twin socket and 3x3 or 4 way Wagos to go back flush in a 25mm box.
If you want to crack on doing it the wago way then thats absolutely fine, its your time and money but I won't bother and I'm more than happy to carry on the way I'm going.
Actually just in case you are a Wago rep can I point out I don't actually use the Wago brand, I use the Ideal ones, they are a bit cheaper than Wagos and I find them easier to handle, Wagos tend to be a bit slippy for me for some reason.
scottyp123 said:
To be truthful I was trying to be diplomatic, in all honesty I agree with Teddy, I think its a stupid idea. Screw terminals in the back of sockets are more than capable of carrying the load of the ring circuit without any long term problems. There must be many millions of screwed terminals in existence that have been there for many years without any sort of issue what so ever.
Its only since wago type connectors have come onto the market that screw down terminals all of a sudden seem to have an issue, what usually happens is an inventor of a new product (Wago) lobbies the government about how dangerous screw terminals are and try's to get the new problem written into the regs and hey presto screw terminals are suddenly deadly.
Wago's are the be all and end all of fixing problems either, I don't like the lever ones at all, we have had a couple of incidences where when used on switches with a few cables in them the levers catch on the cables as you are pushing the switch back and open the wago back up.
As for the number of spurs exceeding the ring sockets, it was a reg but apparently not anymore it would seem, was in the 15th edition and I remember it but its not anymore, I'd still say its good practice though. Anyway rings are old hat nowadays, we hardly fit them its either a 20A 2.5 radial or in kitchens a 32A 4mm radial, much easier to install and test.
A) 4mm on a 32a, what version of the regs are you working to, 15th?Its only since wago type connectors have come onto the market that screw down terminals all of a sudden seem to have an issue, what usually happens is an inventor of a new product (Wago) lobbies the government about how dangerous screw terminals are and try's to get the new problem written into the regs and hey presto screw terminals are suddenly deadly.
Wago's are the be all and end all of fixing problems either, I don't like the lever ones at all, we have had a couple of incidences where when used on switches with a few cables in them the levers catch on the cables as you are pushing the switch back and open the wago back up.
As for the number of spurs exceeding the ring sockets, it was a reg but apparently not anymore it would seem, was in the 15th edition and I remember it but its not anymore, I'd still say its good practice though. Anyway rings are old hat nowadays, we hardly fit them its either a 20A 2.5 radial or in kitchens a 32A 4mm radial, much easier to install and test.
B) on what planet is it easier to work with 4mm, bigger/heavier/more holes etc, squeezing in the back of all the sockets, rather than run a single return leg from the last one?
Teddy Lop said:
A) 4mm on a 32a, what version of the regs are you working to, 15th?
B) on what planet is it easier to work with 4mm, bigger/heavier/more holes etc, squeezing in the back of all the sockets, rather than run a single return leg from the last one?
A) The 17th funnily enough, not bothered to buy an 18th edition book yet as the past editions just sit in a drawer unused. The only time I ever look at them is to quote a reg number to someone on the internet. Anyway 7671 17th/3 page 454 App15 fig 15B.B) on what planet is it easier to work with 4mm, bigger/heavier/more holes etc, squeezing in the back of all the sockets, rather than run a single return leg from the last one?
Not sure what the query is to be fair, 4mm and a 32A MCB is the perfect combination.
B) It all depends what the layout is really, we never wire rings upstairs anymore, in a 3 bed house we just fit a 20A 2.5 radial. 4 bed and above we would fit 2 x 20A radials. In a kitchen we still wire a 32A ring or radial, just depends on whichever is the most practical, sometimes the mains unit is a fair distance from the kitchen so its pointless taking two legs all that way back, might as well do the job just the once. Rest of the ground floor house just a 20A radial again.
Some places, eg schools and such like stipulate 4mm cable for sockets anyway, even if it is a ring. I don't find getting 2x4mm cables in the back of a socket any different to 2x2.5 really, because 4mm is stranded it can actually be easier to push the socket back than a solid 2.5 cable.
Just to add as well, personally I'm not a fan of ring final circuits, there is too much to go wrong with them. We are doing a re-wire at the moment because the electrics are so bad, some of the worst DIY bodge up wiring I've seen in a long time actually. there were 3 separate ring circuits in the house and none of them were a complete ring, we've replaced a couple of circuits already but need to keep the power on, I've got one original ring circuit reduced from about 10 sockets down to just 3 now as we disconnect more old stuff and its still a broken ring.
At least if someone bodges a radial circuit it usually shows itself up because some of the sockets will stop working. So much easier to fault find on them as well. If I go to a fault on a ring main the first thing I do is split the ring at the furthest away point from the mains turning it into two separate radials to test.
Edited by scottyp123 on Tuesday 8th June 18:59
scottyp123 said:
Teddy Lop said:
A) 4mm on a 32a, what version of the regs are you working to, 15th?
B) on what planet is it easier to work with 4mm, bigger/heavier/more holes etc, squeezing in the back of all the sockets, rather than run a single return leg from the last one?
A) The 17th funnily enough, not bothered to buy an 18th edition book yet as the past editions just sit in a drawer unused. The only time I ever look at them is to quote a reg number to someone on the internet. Anyway 7671 17th/3 page 454 App15 fig 15B.B) on what planet is it easier to work with 4mm, bigger/heavier/more holes etc, squeezing in the back of all the sockets, rather than run a single return leg from the last one?
Not sure what the query is to be fair, 4mm and a 32A MCB is the perfect combination.
B) It all depends what the layout is really, we never wire rings upstairs anymore, in a 3 bed house we just fit a 20A 2.5 radial. 4 bed and above we would fit 2 x 20A radials. In a kitchen we still wire a 32A ring or radial, just depends on whichever is the most practical, sometimes the mains unit is a fair distance from the kitchen so its pointless taking two legs all that way back, might as well do the job just the once. Rest of the ground floor house just a 20A radial again.
Some places, eg schools and such like stipulate 4mm cable for sockets anyway, even if it is a ring. I don't find getting 2x4mm cables in the back of a socket any different to 2x2.5 really, because 4mm is stranded it can actually be easier to push the socket back than a solid 2.5 cable.
Just to add as well, personally I'm not a fan of ring final circuits, there is too much to go wrong with them. We are doing a re-wire at the moment because the electrics are so bad, some of the worst DIY bodge up wiring I've seen in a long time actually. there were 3 separate ring circuits in the house and none of them were a complete ring, we've replaced a couple of circuits already but need to keep the power on, I've got one original ring circuit reduced from about 10 sockets down to just 3 now as we disconnect more old stuff and its still a broken ring.
At least if someone bodges a radial circuit it usually shows itself up because some of the sockets will stop working. So much easier to fault find on them as well. If I go to a fault on a ring main the first thing I do is split the ring at the furthest away point from the mains turning it into two separate radials to test.
Edited by scottyp123 on Tuesday 8th June 18:59
As for the ring/ bodge etc I don't understand. That's like saying bad drivers are bad at driving a ford so you woukdnt have a ford.
scottyp123 said:
No-one is saying Wagos are crap, I think they are excellent, I use them all the while in switch boxes for the neutrals. I like the downlights with the push in connectors also but I don't think there is anything wrong with screw terminals on sockets and switches either.
They are a fire risk as they can work loose, especially when on the spine of ring taki g full current. I have come across many. scottyp123 said:
If you want to crack on doing it the wago way then thats absolutely fine, its your time and money
If you read what I wrote it saves money. ♦ On the 1st fix use Wagos inside the backboxes, connecting up a ring (or radial), and the earth terminal of a metal backbox.
♦ Then test the ring.
♦ Any wiring problems are identified before finishing trades turn up. Putting it right afterwards may be big problems and expense and you will have to foot the bill.
♦ Then the plasterers and painters come in doing their work.
♦ Then on the 2nd fix, on a bench prepare the sockets, by screwing into all the socket's tails of flexible 2.5mm cable, inc' an insulated earth wire and ferrule, about 4 inches long.
♦ Then just quickly go around all socket outlets putting the tails into the Wagos at the back of the back boxes. Screwing up with a battery screwdriver. A whole big house can be done very quickly.
♦ The socket easily pushes back in being on flex tails.
♦ The speed, and ease, of installation much quicker, saving money..
Each socket is a spur. The 2.5mm flex tails to a double socket cannot take more than 26A (two 13A sockets) with a 27A rated flex cable. So all OK.
No having to take out parts of the installation on testing which is always on 2nd fix.
A doddle to do. In and out quicker. Proven.
I have no affiliation with any manufacturers. I use the name Wago as a general name for these types of connectors.
RayTay said:
scottyp123 said:
No-one is saying Wagos are crap, I think they are excellent, I use them all the while in switch boxes for the neutrals. I like the downlights with the push in connectors also but I don't think there is anything wrong with screw terminals on sockets and switches either.
They are a fire risk as they can work loose, especially when on the spine of ring taki g full current. I have come across many. scottyp123 said:
If you want to crack on doing it the wago way then thats absolutely fine, its your time and money
If you read what I wrote it saves money. ? On the 1st fix use Wagos inside the backboxes, connecting up a ring (or radial), and the earth terminal of a metal backbox.
? Then test the ring.
? Any wiring problems are identified before finishing trades turn up. Putting it right afterwards may be big problems and expense and you will have to foot the bill.
? Then the plasterers and painters come in doing their work.
? Then on the 2nd fix, on a bench prepare the sockets, by screwing into all the socket's tails of flexible 2.5mm cable, inc' an insulated earth wire and ferrule, about 4 inches long.
? Then just quickly go around all socket outlets putting the tails into the Wagos at the back of the back boxes. Screwing up with a battery screwdriver. A whole big house can be done very quickly.
? The socket easily pushes back in being on flex tails.
? The speed, and ease, of installation much quicker, saving money..
Each socket is a spur. The 2.5mm flex tails to a double socket cannot take more than 26A (two 13A sockets) with a 27A rated flex cable. So all OK.
No having to take out parts of the installation on testing which is always on 2nd fix.
A doddle to do. In and out quicker. Proven.
I have no affiliation with any manufacturers. I use the name Wago as a general name for these types of connectors.
RayTay said:
The Germans are ahead in electrical systems. The Germans have dual busbar consumer units, DP RCBO's (we are just getting them), lever fit, screwless, Wago sockets, etc.
We still think it is 1981.
split boards have been in use here for a few years - id not be interested in using wago at all. If your putting in a wago then your in effect making that socket a spur - fact. A ring is that a ring two cables terminating at the socket - remove that from the socket then that link wire between the wago is a spur from the ring.We still think it is 1981.
Edited by RayTay on Monday 7th June 20:18
Teddy Lop said:
I came in the 16th and 4/32's never been used - only way its permissable is if clipped direct. All other reference methods rate the cable below 32a.
As for the ring/ bodge etc I don't understand. That's like saying bad drivers are bad at driving a ford so you woukdnt have a ford.
If you follow the derating to the letter you wouldn't be able to wire a 32A ring in 2.5 either. After a quick look at the table if you used the 101 method a 32A radial should be wired in 10mm which is clearly crazy.As for the ring/ bodge etc I don't understand. That's like saying bad drivers are bad at driving a ford so you woukdnt have a ford.
As long as you don't end up with the cable buried in insulation then 32A and 4mm is fine.
What I mean about a bodge ring is it could have a break in it and no-one would know anything about it until it slowly overheated and burned the house down, if a radial had a break in it half the sockets wouldn't work and it would immediately be obvious it required attention.
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