Correct course of action for failed electrical work.
Discussion
If those ladders were a fixed piece of wood like another joist for eg then there would be no problem with the cables being diverted slightly upwards to get round it like they are doing. But those ladders will be slid in and out and I know how awkward it can be to get a heavy metal ladder back in position.
If it was my job I would picture the following scenario in my head - home owner goes back in garage with ladders, tries to slide them back in position whilst stood in a puddle of water after jet washing the gutters, the ladders snag on a cable and rip into it catching the live and electrocuting the householder. Just for this reason I would never contemplate doing the above, so if my job ended up with cables over the ladder like that then the only possible scenario would be there were no ladders there to start with. The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute f
king idiot.
If it was my job I would picture the following scenario in my head - home owner goes back in garage with ladders, tries to slide them back in position whilst stood in a puddle of water after jet washing the gutters, the ladders snag on a cable and rip into it catching the live and electrocuting the householder. Just for this reason I would never contemplate doing the above, so if my job ended up with cables over the ladder like that then the only possible scenario would be there were no ladders there to start with. The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute f
king idiot.mickmcpaddy said:
Rick101 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
Because its incomprehensible that an electrician would do that.
mickmcpaddy said:
The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.
Getting warmer...king idiot.mickmcpaddy said:
Rick101 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
Because its incomprehensible that an electrician would do that.
mickmcpaddy said:
The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.
Getting warmer...king idiot.Garybee said:
A little bit of background for context...
Of the four electricians I've contacted, 2 failed to turn up for the appointment to quote, one turned up to quote, appeared keen for the work but never provided a quote and the current one quoted
Client desperation. Simply finding someone that can be arsed to turn up, even 2 hours late.Of the four electricians I've contacted, 2 failed to turn up for the appointment to quote, one turned up to quote, appeared keen for the work but never provided a quote and the current one quoted
I'm just waiting for someone to post it must be the clients fault as he must be awkward and demanding
Edited by Rick101 on Tuesday 27th February 08:51
mickmcpaddy said:
I agree, but if thats the case, how do they stay in work.
did you read his description of his experience of tradesman in your industry?:"Of the four electricians I've contacted, 2 failed to turn up for the appointment to quote, one turned up to quote, appeared keen for the work but never provided a quote and the current one quoted (price seemed good and nice guy so agreed straight away) and turned up to start the job (quoted to be 1 full days work)."
Just to add a different slant on NICEIC.
When we built our house the main contractor used a largish electrical contractor based in London. The exterior lights were an issue almost from day 1 with tripping, armoured cables surfacing through soil, poor connections etc. Contractor attended many times to do remedial work with limited success (lots of attempts at blaming wrong 'drivers' etc. - but didn't want to grasp the nettle and agree that some of the self-employed guys they used were useless and lazy and that more fundamental work was required). Main contractor no help (another story).
After 5 years! we contacted NICEIC. Provided them with original sign off documents and copies of correspondence to electrical contractor giving them the opportunity to rectify and their response. At this point the outfit was on the brink of folding. NICEIC inspected and appointed a good local contractor to rectify. We took the opportunity to upgrade some lights etc. and now all is good. I also learned that wrapping a buried cable joint in a Tesco carrier bag is not an approved method of waterproofing. Who knew?
When we built our house the main contractor used a largish electrical contractor based in London. The exterior lights were an issue almost from day 1 with tripping, armoured cables surfacing through soil, poor connections etc. Contractor attended many times to do remedial work with limited success (lots of attempts at blaming wrong 'drivers' etc. - but didn't want to grasp the nettle and agree that some of the self-employed guys they used were useless and lazy and that more fundamental work was required). Main contractor no help (another story).
After 5 years! we contacted NICEIC. Provided them with original sign off documents and copies of correspondence to electrical contractor giving them the opportunity to rectify and their response. At this point the outfit was on the brink of folding. NICEIC inspected and appointed a good local contractor to rectify. We took the opportunity to upgrade some lights etc. and now all is good. I also learned that wrapping a buried cable joint in a Tesco carrier bag is not an approved method of waterproofing. Who knew?
David-mthtml said:
To add a different slant on this (don’t agree with current quality of work however) they’ll always be that one Customer that’ll complain they can no longer store the ladders there if the Electrican had moved the ladders and gone straight across.
If I was an electrician and my intended routing for cables was through an area that the customer obviously used for storage (and in this case was currently using for storage) I would either amend my cable routing or say to the customer "can these ladders go anywhere else, there's no other way for me to run this cable". The (extremely obvious) solution here would have been to run the cables along the end wall of the garage.To be clear, I had spoken to the guy at the start of the job and told him to give me a shout if he had any problems or needed me to make a decision.
mickmcpaddy said:
If those ladders were a fixed piece of wood like another joist for eg then there would be no problem with the cables being diverted slightly upwards to get round it like they are doing. But those ladders will be slid in and out and I know how awkward it can be to get a heavy metal ladder back in position.
If it was my job I would picture the following scenario in my head - home owner goes back in garage with ladders, tries to slide them back in position whilst stood in a puddle of water after jet washing the gutters, the ladders snag on a cable and rip into it catching the live and electrocuting the householder. Just for this reason I would never contemplate doing the above, so if my job ended up with cables over the ladder like that then the only possible scenario would be there were no ladders there to start with. The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.
I'm be fine with them taking a less than direct route. I'm not an unreasonable guy and as I said earlier I'm well aware that there is often 'the ideal way' and 'the acceptable way'. This job however was neither. I will post pictures of some of the other aspects of the work that are wrong, this was just the most ridiculous one that I didn't think anyone would argue about. Obviously I underestimated pistonheads here If it was my job I would picture the following scenario in my head - home owner goes back in garage with ladders, tries to slide them back in position whilst stood in a puddle of water after jet washing the gutters, the ladders snag on a cable and rip into it catching the live and electrocuting the householder. Just for this reason I would never contemplate doing the above, so if my job ended up with cables over the ladder like that then the only possible scenario would be there were no ladders there to start with. The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute f
king idiot.
.I'm not in any way accusing all electricians of being like this. I don't believe I have suggested that at any point in this thread.
Rick101 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
Rick101 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
Because its incomprehensible that an electrician would do that.
mickmcpaddy said:
The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.
Getting warmer...king idiot.Garybee said:
A little bit of background for context...
Of the four electricians I've contacted, 2 failed to turn up for the appointment to quote, one turned up to quote, appeared keen for the work but never provided a quote and the current one quoted
Client desperation. Simply finding someone that can be arsed to turn up, even 2 hours late.Of the four electricians I've contacted, 2 failed to turn up for the appointment to quote, one turned up to quote, appeared keen for the work but never provided a quote and the current one quoted
I'm just waiting for someone to post it must be the clients fault as he must be awkward and demanding
At this point I'll be fairly satisfied if he returns to complete the job and provides the certificates. When he's gone I'll then be able to fix all the mistakes and make it how it should be. It's frustrating because you shouldn't have to think this way but what else can you realistically do?
Roman Rhodes said:
Just to add a different slant on NICEIC.
When we built our house the main contractor used a largish electrical contractor based in London. The exterior lights were an issue almost from day 1 with tripping, armoured cables surfacing through soil, poor connections etc. Contractor attended many times to do remedial work with limited success (lots of attempts at blaming wrong 'drivers' etc. - but didn't want to grasp the nettle and agree that some of the self-employed guys they used were useless and lazy and that more fundamental work was required). Main contractor no help (another story).
After 5 years! we contacted NICEIC. Provided them with original sign off documents and copies of correspondence to electrical contractor giving them the opportunity to rectify and their response. At this point the outfit was on the brink of folding. NICEIC inspected and appointed a good local contractor to rectify. We took the opportunity to upgrade some lights etc. and now all is good. I also learned that wrapping a buried cable joint in a Tesco carrier bag is not an approved method of waterproofing. Who knew?
That is good to hear, I may well have a decision to make at some point then. I still haven't fully decided what I'm going to do about it. When we built our house the main contractor used a largish electrical contractor based in London. The exterior lights were an issue almost from day 1 with tripping, armoured cables surfacing through soil, poor connections etc. Contractor attended many times to do remedial work with limited success (lots of attempts at blaming wrong 'drivers' etc. - but didn't want to grasp the nettle and agree that some of the self-employed guys they used were useless and lazy and that more fundamental work was required). Main contractor no help (another story).
After 5 years! we contacted NICEIC. Provided them with original sign off documents and copies of correspondence to electrical contractor giving them the opportunity to rectify and their response. At this point the outfit was on the brink of folding. NICEIC inspected and appointed a good local contractor to rectify. We took the opportunity to upgrade some lights etc. and now all is good. I also learned that wrapping a buried cable joint in a Tesco carrier bag is not an approved method of waterproofing. Who knew?
If the guy simply messes me about and fails to return then I'll definitely contact the NICEIC and leave bad reviews wherever I can.
If he returns, fixes all the crappy work and provides certificates then I'll update this thread to say how wrong I was and be a very happy customer. I'll probably also take some pictures of the airborne pigs as they pass my house too. I am prepared for this eventuality though just in case it happens.
The awkward scenario is him returning and completing the work to the same incorrect/shoddy standard that he has so far worked to but providing certificates to say it's correctly installed. I could then fix it after he's gone and I'm legal and safe. But what about the next customer?
In the case of the NICEIC appointing another local contractor to fix the work who foots the bill? I'm assuming that this would end up being me again but It's not something I've dealt with before so interested to know what should happen here.
Jambo85 said:
Garybee said:
I feel I should provide an example of what we're talking about. This is probably my favourite bit. Running cables through the joists, a few joists in reach a ladder stored in the area, do you:-
a) not get into that situation in the first place by thinking before you start drilling.
b) run the cables to the end wall and go across there.
c) lay them on top of the ladders and continue on the other side
Reading through the thread I was thinking to myself that there's nothing wrong with running cables through joists surely, hard to avoid sometimes, but bloody hell that is rough!
My latest disappointment was a plumber fitting a new radiator - had to cut the floor which was fine but apparently doesn't carry screws/nails so fastened it back down by using the original screws down the middle of the cut attempting to secure both sides...!
No problem: counterbore the holes to an appropriate depth, then put large diameter washers under the screw heads. That'll fix it OK. Garybee said:
In the case of the NICEIC appointing another local contractor to fix the work who foots the bill? I'm assuming that this would end up being me again but It's not something I've dealt with before so interested to know what should happen here.
That would be the Niceic 7 year guarantee. The niceic pays for the rectification costs.
However im pretty sure he will need to have finished the work, signed it off and you paying him for this to apply. And the electrician will need to be a member of the niceic.
Contract Killer said:
Garybee said:
In the case of the NICEIC appointing another local contractor to fix the work who foots the bill? I'm assuming that this would end up being me again but It's not something I've dealt with before so interested to know what should happen here.
That would be the Niceic 7 year guarantee. The niceic pays for the rectification costs.
However im pretty sure he will need to have finished the work, signed it off and you paying him for this to apply. And the electrician will need to be a member of the niceic.
Garybee said:
Well colour me surprised! Thanks for the info', that was not what I expected.
Here you go: http://www.niceic.com/find-a-contractor/platinum-p...Looks like its actually only 6 years (I'm sure it used to be 7), and a limit of £25000. It does say work must be completed.
Contract Killer said:
Here you go: http://www.niceic.com/find-a-contractor/platinum-p...
Looks like its actually only 6 years (I'm sure it used to be 7), and a limit of £25000. It does say work must be completed.
and notified I expect, as every notified job your nic spark pays an insurance fee on in addition to notification fee. Not all work is notifiable.Looks like its actually only 6 years (I'm sure it used to be 7), and a limit of £25000. It does say work must be completed.
Alucidnation said:
Can someone explain what is against the regs and is unsafe with the installation?
This does strongly suggest that you think this is an acceptable way to leave a job. It's quite amusing to have two, presumably qualified, electricians looking at the same picture. One saying:-
mickmcpaddy said:
The only other possible reason could be the electrician was an absolute fking idiot.
and the other saying:-king idiot.Alucidnation said:
Can someone explain what is against the regs and is unsafe with the installation?
Edited by Garybee on Tuesday 27th February 20:42
Well...I thought I would do an update as I left this hanging.
To the guy's credit he did return to finish the job. There were some comedy errors made though, including one that beats the 'wires draped over the ladder' pictured earlier.
I fitted an electric roller door to my workshop a few months ago which has been waiting for electric to be run to the building. I hadn't mentioned the door to the electrician as I was planning to do this bit myself. When I had a quick check to see how he was getting on I noticed that he had mounted a 'fused spur' box and wired the garage door motor directly to it
. I thanked him for doing the extra work (balanced out only having 1/3 of the sockets we'd agreed) but mentioned that it wouldn't work at which point he revealed that he'd only connected 3 of the motor wires as he didn't know what to do with the 4th. Glad I saw he'd done this before everything got switched on.
When he'd finished he thanked me and said he hoped I'd consider him in the future for and further work. I was feeling a little sorry for him at this point so I just thanked him and asked him to send through the certificates with the invoice. All nice and friendly, no hint of any grief.
36 hours later I got the following text:-
"Please can you call - to discuss non payment of the amount £xxx to Mr xxxxxx. Reminders have been sent, a voicemail and call - now MSM. Failure to make payment can result in fees and further action. To resolve immediately, pay full amount. Alternatively payment plan can be arranged with added fees dependant on period of time."
At this point I hadn't even had an invoice. Obviously I was less than impressed by this so I called up (the number turned out to be his wife's who would appear to do the admin etc.) and had a fairly stern word. This prompted an extremely apologetic text and a load of waffle about another customer with a very similar name.
All through the job the guy had had a really good attitude but had kept dropping comments about recently letting an employee go, recently expanding etc etc. Basically lots of excuses about why the job had dragged out so long. He'd obviously recently started out but didn't want me to know that. It was a shame because I have no issues with employing someone new to the game. If anything they're more likely to still be doing things correctly. I'd take that over a tradesman who 'knows everything', is massively arrogant, has fallen into crappy practices years ago and will sulk and stomp off when you pick him up on the crappy job he's just done. This description fits the vast majority of tradesmen that I've come across (not saying there isn't a good one somewhere though).
Anyway, I now have certificates to say it's safe so can spend a couple of evenings making it right. I think that is probably going to be the last time I bother to employ a tradesman though (until I'm too old to DIY everything). It's just so much harder than doing it yourself.
I feel a bit sorry for this lad. He's obviously just starting out and is struggling. His wife is then flapping and trying to speed up payments the wrong way. I can't see his business lasting long sadly, which is a shame because he was actually far better to deal with than most.
To the guy's credit he did return to finish the job. There were some comedy errors made though, including one that beats the 'wires draped over the ladder' pictured earlier.
I fitted an electric roller door to my workshop a few months ago which has been waiting for electric to be run to the building. I hadn't mentioned the door to the electrician as I was planning to do this bit myself. When I had a quick check to see how he was getting on I noticed that he had mounted a 'fused spur' box and wired the garage door motor directly to it
. I thanked him for doing the extra work (balanced out only having 1/3 of the sockets we'd agreed) but mentioned that it wouldn't work at which point he revealed that he'd only connected 3 of the motor wires as he didn't know what to do with the 4th. Glad I saw he'd done this before everything got switched on.When he'd finished he thanked me and said he hoped I'd consider him in the future for and further work. I was feeling a little sorry for him at this point so I just thanked him and asked him to send through the certificates with the invoice. All nice and friendly, no hint of any grief.
36 hours later I got the following text:-
"Please can you call - to discuss non payment of the amount £xxx to Mr xxxxxx. Reminders have been sent, a voicemail and call - now MSM. Failure to make payment can result in fees and further action. To resolve immediately, pay full amount. Alternatively payment plan can be arranged with added fees dependant on period of time."
At this point I hadn't even had an invoice. Obviously I was less than impressed by this so I called up (the number turned out to be his wife's who would appear to do the admin etc.) and had a fairly stern word. This prompted an extremely apologetic text and a load of waffle about another customer with a very similar name.
All through the job the guy had had a really good attitude but had kept dropping comments about recently letting an employee go, recently expanding etc etc. Basically lots of excuses about why the job had dragged out so long. He'd obviously recently started out but didn't want me to know that. It was a shame because I have no issues with employing someone new to the game. If anything they're more likely to still be doing things correctly. I'd take that over a tradesman who 'knows everything', is massively arrogant, has fallen into crappy practices years ago and will sulk and stomp off when you pick him up on the crappy job he's just done. This description fits the vast majority of tradesmen that I've come across (not saying there isn't a good one somewhere though).
Anyway, I now have certificates to say it's safe so can spend a couple of evenings making it right. I think that is probably going to be the last time I bother to employ a tradesman though (until I'm too old to DIY everything). It's just so much harder than doing it yourself.
I feel a bit sorry for this lad. He's obviously just starting out and is struggling. His wife is then flapping and trying to speed up payments the wrong way. I can't see his business lasting long sadly, which is a shame because he was actually far better to deal with than most.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff