Neighbour wanting a front extension, not pleased.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Mothersruin said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

bennno said:

Planning required as its on the front, you can also flag up the 50% permitted development rule if his shed is as big as you have described....

That's the workshop. I suspect it's under 50%, but we're sure it's taller than allowed.

Workshop my arse.

He's an ex kitchen fitter, wood work is his trade. I have seen in it, and it is all wood machinery, and worktops. God knows what he needs to do workshop wise regarding wood. Especially to lose half his garden to achieve it.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Julian Thompson said:

I’ve studied the rules for PD quite a bit as I’ve just built a large garage using it.

His workshop is allowed to be 2.5 meters high from the highest point of the land around it. I’ve had this tested after a complaint about mine and I was successful.

1) it doesn’t look to me more than 2.5 meters high - I’m gauging this from the standard sheds around.

2) in the picture of the house before there was a raised area of the garden where the shed is now. If that was the original natural height there then he has an argument that THAT floor around the outside of the shed forms the basis for the height measurement and thus even if his shed is 3m high or whatever he is ok.

3) Looking at the houses behind the site seems to slope naturally down - If there is some higher ground still behind that shed he can measure off that...

For this reason and because it doesn’t look more than 2.5m I don’t think there is anything about his shed that breaches PD.

An interesting post, which I would dissect and digest further, if and when we needed to use this as leverage. Truth be known, it's showing no taste, we suspect it breaks regs, and we'll just screen it. If he went in to full on tt mode it's an angle. In hindsight we should have asked the height/ size etc when he was planning it, we didn't, he cracked on. We had WTF reactions between ourselves, but so what ultimately. If it was illegal and he went full prick we'd leave no stone unturned RE it, but, that is not the position we want to find ourselves at with this, we need to live next door to them.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Welshbeef said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

He's an ex kitchen fitter, wood work is his trade. I have seen in it, and it is all wood machinery, and worktops. God knows what he needs to do workshop wise regarding wood. Especially to lose half his garden to achieve it.

The other neighbour is certainly taking the piss with his garden to shed man cave piss take. Next door appears to be good visually whereas neighbour+1 it’s pretty fatty


OP I’d be mighty pissed off - but good neighbour relations are key. You’ve had good advice on here as to how to word it which should help you in spades.
Conversely he might be the sort of chap who smirks at you when you eel out those lines a knowing smirk - look at my garden yea who stopped me no one.

I won't even start on neighbour plus 1. He's proper council, to use a PH term, and that shed has a sex pond in it to use another. He's just painted an original 140 year old Victorian wall (the one facing the path) in neon red brick paint. WTAF is up with some.

Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah on Tuesday 27th March 23:54

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Gavia said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

An interesting post, which I would dissect and digest further, if and when we needed to use this as leverage. Truth be known, it's showing no taste, we suspect it breaks regs, and we'll just screen it. If he went in to full on tt mode it's an angle. In hindsight we should have asked the height/ size etc when he was planning it, we didn't, he cracked on. We had WTF reactions between ourselves, but so what ultimately. If it was illegal and he went full prick we'd leave no stone unturned RE it, but, that is not the position we want to find ourselves at with this, we need to live next door to them.

Seriously, leave the back gardens alone, you’re going to get into a world of neighbour raltion pain with next door but one too and that will mess up your chances of ever selling up.

Keep the issue to the proposed front extension and follow the advice on here. Tit for tat escalations never end well for anybody.

You are talking sense, and rest assured, it's nothing that we wish to bring up to achieve the goal, IE not allowing him to do what he wishes. It has been bought up by us to A) demonstrate that rules and regs don't enter his radar, and B) that if he went full on prick mode we'd explore the route of getting the bloody thing pulled down. Truth be known I couldn't give a flying one about it, but it is an indicator of the mans attitude. The regs are the regs, he can't do what he thinks he is entitled to do without planning consent, which 24 hours on we think he's unlikely to be granted.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

To answer the few points above. No, he's not running any business as far as we know. Also we never see strangers come and go, which would be happening if he was trading as anything. AFAIK he's retired, mid 60's.

We won't be moving, we love the house, and its position. No one here is planning on starting war with a neighbour, how ever annoyed I am by him.

24 hours on we're armed with a lot more essential knowledge. In as much that he's allowed a 'porch' up to 3m2, not within 2 metres of a boundary. If outside of these parameters, he needs planning, which he's unlikely to get. Plus the fact we believe he doesn't 'own' the land to the front of his house.

We genuinely believe he hasn't even considered planning, and unchallenged would just start to build. When we see him, or if S goes to chat to him (undecided) we'll politely bring up that we're not happy with his idea of building so close to us. He'll either be considerate - unlikely, he's stated he's only interested in maxing his space - or not. If not we'll ask when he's looking to submit planning, and point out these regs.
Had he not pushed so far with so little sympathy for his neighbours (any decent person would accept a neighbour would be pissed at an extension 6" away from their front door....) we would have likely have not been thrilled, but would have taken the attitude of 'his house'.

Silly old fool.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

pequod said:

My sympathies, OP, and some good advice already given by others.

Whilst you have repeated that 6" from your front door is the boundary between your properties, how sure are you of this measurement? It may be worth asking a building surveyor/solicitor to confirm where exactly the boundary line is?

There has been, agreed. My thanks to all, as this, combined with our own research, has armed us with the facts around what he actually can do.

The reason being was stated earlier in the thread, but these small details are easily missed. When out dog walking the same night we looked at various other houses of the same design in the village, there's probably 50 of our design. We observed certain roofs replaced in isolation, IE one house and not a complete terrace. In such instances the line between the two roofs in all instances ended pretty much on the line he states. If you were replacing your roof you'd sure as hell check what is yours to replace.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Gavia said:

hyphen said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

We are very accommodating neighbours. For example, he has a monstrosity of a wooden workshop in his back garden, taking up literally two thirds of his garden. We know for a fact that it is about 3 foot taller than regs allow you to build. We've never complained, even though he built the thing without chatting to us, and we have to stare at the ruddy eyesore everytime we're in the garden (we're going to screen it when we get on with the garden)

After a certain amount of time, a development automatically becomes legal.

It is clear that he doesn't give a st about being a good neighbour, so find out for sure if it is illegal and if so get the council involved.

Just accept you don't have a nice neighbour rather than trying to be so nice all the time.

Edited by hyphen on Wednesday 28th March 09:52

Ignore this. As I’ve said before leave the back garden issue well alone. You’ll be dragging other neighbours into it, possibly starting a dispute that will become declareable if you ever sell and all over something that you haven’t been that bothered about until now. It’s also equally possible that it’s co Llewelyn legal as others have mentioned and then you become the miserable neighbour.

We're not planning to, it's more an observation that he doesn't care for building regs. In the unlikely even that he went full mental at us blocking his plans the option can always be retained to request its pulled, but I don't see it coming to that.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

DonkeyApple said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

I struggle to deal with anyone who tries to insult me/ take me for a prick, call it what you want. I'd get to a point, especially with a character like him, where I'd lose my cool, which would be counter productive. He is taking the piss with his approach, IE 'this is what I'm doing' translation, to fk with you. I'd reach that point, where she'll probably kill it dead by making him feel stupid by highlighting the facts as they are.

It sounds like your neighbour is a bit of a ‘freeman of the land’ and there is a risk that he may start putting up the extension without going for planning etc. And then you have a real issue.

Personally, as I do not relish confrontations as being a ginga with a stammer I learnt at a very young age where they always end up for me.

So what I would do is take control of his development project and steer it into the rocks. I would agree with him that an extension would be awesome and that I had also been thinking of doing exactly the same so we should both save a lot of money by doing the same work at the same time to have the same look and thus, maximise our wealth potentials. You then take it to planning, take it wherever it needs to formally go and make sure it all collapses on either neither of you owning the land, not being a permissible development or costs in general as you are a man of class and understand that upvc will damage the value whereas a hardwood frame with matching skates etc will hugely elevate values.

To me the best approach is to 100% work with him to achieve his goal and thus you drive it off the cliff with the Nazi planners or scum lawyers taking the blame. You can even buy the beer that you’ll share together to drown your sorrows at your abject failure to maximise your human rights and having it stuck to you both by the ‘man’.

One of the most efficient ways to crush your enemy is to be their ally.

It's an interesting angle, but we'd not be happy to let him think for a second that we approve to his ideas. He needs standing up to, as amicably as possible, of course. Ultimately we're not looking for a neighbourly fall out. And god forbid it got approved!

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

PurpleTurtle said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

To answer the few points above. No, he's not running any business as far as we know. Also we never see strangers come and go, which would be happening if he was trading as anything. AFAIK he's retired, mid 60's.

We won't be moving, we love the house, and its position. No one here is planning on starting war with a neighbour, how ever annoyed I am by him.

24 hours on we're armed with a lot more essential knowledge. In as much that he's allowed a 'porch' up to 3m2, not within 2 metres of a boundary. If outside of these parameters, he needs planning, which he's unlikely to get. Plus the fact we believe he doesn't 'own' the land to the front of his house.

We genuinely believe he hasn't even considered planning, and unchallenged would just start to build. When we see him, or if S goes to chat to him (undecided) we'll politely bring up that we're not happy with his idea of building so close to us. He'll either be considerate - unlikely, he's stated he's only interested in maxing his space - or not. If not we'll ask when he's looking to submit planning, and point out these regs.
Had he not pushed so far with so little sympathy for his neighbours (any decent person would accept a neighbour would be pissed at an extension 6" away from their front door....) we would have likely have not been thrilled, but would have taken the attitude of 'his house'.

Silly old fool.

Let me give you a bit of well-earned advice. Once you object, this old prick is going to go nuclear and you will have problems on your hands.

My parents spent 5 years of my childhood locked in a neighbourly dispute with the Fat Obnoxious B astard next door (a former good friend), who attempted to steal 6 feet of their garden after fences were replaced following a huge council project to divert a local stream underground after repeated floods of multiple properties. Fortunately my old man took photos of the boundaries before the fences came down, so we had a strong case when it went to court and we won.

FOB was then serving as a DC in the (since disbanded, because it was bent) West Midlands Serious Crimes Squad. What he didn't know was that the Dad of my mate of mine who I used to go BMX'ing with was an Inspector in the same force, and unknown to us, FOB's boss!

We had no clue until one day my mate's dad arrived to pick my mate up, only to find FOB stripped to the waist washing his car. Only trouble was, FOB was on long-term sick, because of a "bad back". Once a bent copper. Needless to say he was hauled over the coals in a disciplinaary, went apoplectic at my Dad about his "friends" - we honestly had no idea, until this stroke of luck - and FOB moved within 2 months. Hallelujah!

I tell the story, because until that remarkable stroke of fortune, he went out of his way to make my parents' life a misery. There's no dressing this up - if you object, prepare to endure some st from this prick. He's retired, he's got time on his hands, he's going to sit there stewing over how that young tt next door has denied him his (arguably pointless) extension. Be strong, brother.

I'm confident we know how to handle him to avoid war, plus his wife is lovely, a very gentle lady. The only option if we don't raise objection is to let him go ahead and build what he wants, and that's not happening. It shall have too much of a detriment to our property, including, but not limited to reducing kerb appeal at such a point we sell.

He wont like it, he doesn't have to. Insisting that regs are followed does not in any way make us in the wrong, so if he goes nuclear then so be it. Obviously that is hopefully going to be avoided.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

WindyCommon said:

How about applying for planning permission yourself to do just what he is contemplating?

You won’t need architects/planners for this, and you’ll get definitive answers to all of your questions. As it just what he wants to do, it’s hard to see how your neighbour could be upset by such an application.

If needs be, if he pushes back hard, the next step would be an attempt to meet/speak with a planning officer. This would be to qualify for certain if his plans stood any chance of approval.

I'm psyching myself up to have a chat with him this afternoon.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

kowalski655 said:

If neighbour just starts to do the work 1 morning,what are the OP's options?(Hopefully he wont but you never know!)
Court injunction? Expensive no doubt
Report to council? "We'll be out to check next month Sir, it's the cuts you see"
Police?"Civil matter Sir"
Baseball bat to the skull?

You do never know, but we trust that he wouldn't. If he did so it would obviously be treating us with contempt, so we would do likewise, and take whatever steps were required. I'd guess this would be reporting it to the planning office?

RE having a chat to him in a bit. I plan to, as politely as possible, advise that we're not happy with the proposal, which I think is highly likely to pushed back against. At that point I shall ask 'when are you planning to do this, and when are you hoping to submit planning', which I am pretty sure shall be met with a blank face. I really don't think planning has ever even landed on his radar.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Right, just had a half hour chat with him, and it shall be going to planning is the long and short. All was kept friendly.

A few revisions to what he has said previously, as scoping out what he wants to fit was necessary.

After a few minutes of chit chat I got to the point, and said we were both concerned at the prospect of him building so close to our boundary, and ultimately virtually next to our door. Firstly he said that he's decided that instead of UPVC he wants a wood construction, sighted exactly where he proposed, but going maybe half to two thirds across his property, to meet his lower window. He (wrongly IMO) stated he 'knows he's allowed 8.5m2 without planning, I'm pretty sure it's 3.5m2, but I didn't correct him. The crux of it is that he wants the waste pipe to the front inside his building, to allow citing of a toilet on the inside of the extension.

I raised the fact of if he's aware it shall require planning, as it's within 2 metres of the boundary, and he replied yes, I shall be submitting planning. He then said something which I think sums him up. 'I've spoken with a friend who is in planning, and he said 'why would you not spend £170, when it can get you not just what you're allowed, but what you want'. 'Arrogant tosser' popped in to my head, as only a few minutes earlier he'd heard me say that we're not happy with the proposed proximity, then just ignored it.

It shall look utter crap in our opinion, but we can only now allow the wheels to get in motion. When the plans are submitted we shall object, he can accept no less after our chat. We now need to figure out the hows, and establish the likelihood he'll have of succeeding.

Usefully Sarah's dad is a house builder, and a very good one, so he'll know all the ins and outs. Sarah shall obviously be chatting to her parents at length when she's down there this weekend.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

nonsequitur said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

Right, just had a half hour chat with him, and it shall be going to planning is the long and short. All was kept friendly.

A few revisions to what he has said previously, as scoping out what he wants to fit was necessary.

After a few minutes of chit chat I got to the point, and said we were both concerned at the prospect of him building so close to our boundary, and ultimately virtually next to our door. Firstly he said that he's decided that instead of UPVC he wants a wood construction, sighted exactly where he proposed, but going maybe half to two thirds across his property, to meet his lower window. He (wrongly IMO) stated he 'knows he's allowed 8.5m2 without planning, I'm pretty sure it's 3.5m2, but I didn't correct him. The crux of it is that he wants the waste pipe to the front inside his building, to allow citing of a toilet on the inside of the extension.

I raised the fact of if he's aware it shall require planning, as it's within 2 metres of the boundary, and he replied yes, I shall be submitting planning. He then said something which I think sums him up. 'I've spoken with a friend who is in planning, and he said 'why would you not spend £170, when it can get you not just what you're allowed, but what you want'. 'Arrogant tosser' popped in to my head, as only a few minutes earlier he'd heard me say that we're not happy with the proposed proximity, then just ignored it.

It shall look utter crap in our opinion, but we can only now allow the wheels to get in motion. When the plans are submitted we shall object, he can accept no less after our chat. We now need to figure out the hows, and establish the likelihood he'll have of succeeding.

Usefully Sarah's dad is a house builder, and a very good one, so he'll know all the ins and outs. Sarah shall obviously be chatting to her parents at length when she's down there this weekend.

Have you engaged other neighbours? As stated earlier our village got together to object etc., and it worked.

He is very matey with the guy the other side, I'd be gobsmacked if he objected.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

cadmunkey said:

Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah said:

The crux of it is that he wants the waste pipe to the front inside his building, to allow citing of a toilet on the inside of the extension.

So he now wants a loo in this new porch? He's got no chance of getting planning!!

I don't actually think it's inside the extension, but the other side, inside the house. He wanting the pipe enclosed inside the structure of the extension.

Edit, actually yes, he must be thinking so.... I recall he said 'there shall be no window there' (the side we'd see leaving our front door) followed by 'well we definitely wouldn't want one with what's going there'

Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah on Wednesday 28th March 14:16

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

desolate said:

Is it now accepted that the deeds don't confirm the OP has a right to access the area in question?

this one is still needing clarification. We had been told by our solicitors that it was communal. The physical deeds state right of passage.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

irememberyou said:

desolate said:

Is it now accepted that the deeds don't confirm the OP has a right to access the area in question?

Surely this has got to be the key point while you're waiting for the numpty to put in his planning application?

Remind him about the Party Wall Act too as this will definitely apply - he needs to issue you with a Notice and get your consent - regardless of Planning Permission.

Ownership of the land and Party Wall Act could scupper the whole thing without even getting to Planning.

Or you could wait for the Planners to write to you and then respond with a triple whammy of Land ownership, Party Wall Act and Planning Objection.

Can you please elaborate on what in the PWA effects his plans? I'm not overly familiar with it.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

B17NNS said:

If he wants to build up to your boundary he's going to have to dig up some of your land for the footings.

He'll also need to dig 1m which will probably be deeper than your existing foundations.

Our house (built 1875) doesn't have foundations. I've seen with my own eyes what it's built on, namely bits of rubble.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

paulrockliffe said:

It was mentioned earlier, but you didn't respond to it OP. If you have a mortgage and you have a right of access across that land, they will have an interest and they will defend the value of their asset. You're probably contractually obliged to let them know about this too, so you might as well get them involved when it goes to planning.

Thank you, we shall certainly inform them in due course. Any other ideas on the best ways to object to this, if the area turns out to not be communal, and is actually just shared access? Our reason for not being happy with the proposal are A) it shall look crap/ it shall wreck the front aspect to our house B) It's far too bloody close, and downright intrusive C) we're actually pretty damn repulsed at the idea of there being a stter 10 inches from our front door, behind nothing more than a thin wooden structure.

So bloody incensed by him.

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Gavia said:

And you’re back on completely the wrong track. Drop the emotion, there is no valid objection in that. You’ve had multiple valid reasons to object amd you need to use them instead of just getting angry.

IIRC your in law Gavia, but is it you who is a specialist in motoring law, or is it wider? I accept this, we need concise reasons to object. We just need to clarify what these are. Do any of these key reasons of ours hold any weight? Surely the reason the 2 metres away from a boundary rule exists to stop people being pricks like this?

Edit, this line on this site suggests this is a valid complaint - Over-bearing / out-of-scale or out of character in terms of appearance

https://www.iobject.co.uk/what-are-valid-reasons-f...

Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah on Wednesday 28th March 19:59

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Thank you both. I admit, I have let it get to me, and I am pissed off with him, but as said that wont help. Advice contained within the thread has been noted, and I shall re-read.