Fence - replace with a wall, cost and finish responsibility
Discussion
The fence that runs along one side of my garden and part of the house needs a few posts an panels replacing. It's my fence on the deeds.
I replaced all the panels about 5 years ago. At that point the posts were solid, and I did all the work from my side.
Now 3 of the posts have rotted at ground level, and 3 panels have broken with the wind over winter. My plan was just to replace these broken parts, like for like.
I've just had a chat with my neighbour about it, and been round his side to have a look. His garden is between a foot and 18 inches lower than mine, with boards nailed to the fence posts to retain the soil. All these boards are rotten. The whole lot will need replacing over the next couple of years.
My thoughts are to do the job properly, and do it once.
At the back and other side of the garden are 3 foot block walls with a 3 foot fence on top. No wood into the ground, so much less rot. The block wall was ugly, so I've planted hedging to hide the wall (Griselinia) along the back. Most of the side wall is hidden behind a big shed.
Thinking about replacing the dodgy fence with a similar wall/fence combination, as that will retain the different levels between the gardens and last a lot longer. Maybe get the blockwork rendered and painted, rather than planting in front of it.
The wall is about 50 feet long, so I reckon about £300 for the materials to build the wall, same again for the fence. I know someone who can do the rendering, possibly the footings and blockwork too.
A few questions:
What size footings will I need for a 4 foot (on the neighbour's side) block wall?
Presumably I will need some piers too for extra strength? If so, how far apart, and will laying the blocks end-on be enough (18x18 pier)?
What about if I did the whole thing in rendered block (no fence on top, 7 foot of blockwork)? How would that change the size of the footings and piers?
Who is actually responsible for the retaining part, the bit that's hidden on my side, but visible on my neighbour's side because his garden is lower?
Am I responsible for the finish of the wall on my neighbour's side? If I render and paint my side, am I obliged to do the same on his side?
I've discussed the options with my neighbour, and he's relatively flexible. Just about anything will be better for him than what's currently there. Apart from the broken panels, it all looks OK from my side, but not from his side.
I replaced all the panels about 5 years ago. At that point the posts were solid, and I did all the work from my side.
Now 3 of the posts have rotted at ground level, and 3 panels have broken with the wind over winter. My plan was just to replace these broken parts, like for like.
I've just had a chat with my neighbour about it, and been round his side to have a look. His garden is between a foot and 18 inches lower than mine, with boards nailed to the fence posts to retain the soil. All these boards are rotten. The whole lot will need replacing over the next couple of years.
My thoughts are to do the job properly, and do it once.
At the back and other side of the garden are 3 foot block walls with a 3 foot fence on top. No wood into the ground, so much less rot. The block wall was ugly, so I've planted hedging to hide the wall (Griselinia) along the back. Most of the side wall is hidden behind a big shed.
Thinking about replacing the dodgy fence with a similar wall/fence combination, as that will retain the different levels between the gardens and last a lot longer. Maybe get the blockwork rendered and painted, rather than planting in front of it.
The wall is about 50 feet long, so I reckon about £300 for the materials to build the wall, same again for the fence. I know someone who can do the rendering, possibly the footings and blockwork too.
A few questions:
What size footings will I need for a 4 foot (on the neighbour's side) block wall?
Presumably I will need some piers too for extra strength? If so, how far apart, and will laying the blocks end-on be enough (18x18 pier)?
What about if I did the whole thing in rendered block (no fence on top, 7 foot of blockwork)? How would that change the size of the footings and piers?
Who is actually responsible for the retaining part, the bit that's hidden on my side, but visible on my neighbour's side because his garden is lower?
Am I responsible for the finish of the wall on my neighbour's side? If I render and paint my side, am I obliged to do the same on his side?
I've discussed the options with my neighbour, and he's relatively flexible. Just about anything will be better for him than what's currently there. Apart from the broken panels, it all looks OK from my side, but not from his side.
This looks a bit more complicated than I thought. Government website recommends using 200mm blocks for walls up to a metre high. Another DIY website says that any garden wall over 1.2 metres needs to be specced by a structural engineer.
So, building a block wall the full height is out. It'll be a 1 metre wall on my side (1.2m on the neighbour's side) built from 200mm blocks, with piers every 2 metres, and a 3foot fence on top. 450mm footings.
I guess building standards are a lot higher than 50 years ago when my house was built. The 3 foot walls on the other sides of the garden are single 100mm block, no piers. They haven't fallen down, although next door's dog did knock one block off trying to jump over.
So, building a block wall the full height is out. It'll be a 1 metre wall on my side (1.2m on the neighbour's side) built from 200mm blocks, with piers every 2 metres, and a 3foot fence on top. 450mm footings.
I guess building standards are a lot higher than 50 years ago when my house was built. The 3 foot walls on the other sides of the garden are single 100mm block, no piers. They haven't fallen down, although next door's dog did knock one block off trying to jump over.
How about using concrete slotted posts, and concrete gravel boards with a decent quality panel on top?
I regularly do jobs like this, and obviously the financial impact is far far less than bricks and mortar, and if done well, will last just as long. 12/18 inches is fine to be retained by the gravelboards, providing that the posts are in the ground 3ft (measured from the lower side.) If you would like any advice/information if you do go down the fencing route, drop me a PM and I'll gladly help!
I regularly do jobs like this, and obviously the financial impact is far far less than bricks and mortar, and if done well, will last just as long. 12/18 inches is fine to be retained by the gravelboards, providing that the posts are in the ground 3ft (measured from the lower side.) If you would like any advice/information if you do go down the fencing route, drop me a PM and I'll gladly help!
I should have mentioned where I live - west Cornwall. Brick wouldn't look right, as everything here is either granite or rendered block. The houses on my road are a mix of pebbledash (granite chippings) and white painted render. Nothing made of brick for miles.
I'm not really keen on concrete posts. I think they look ugly. My parents had them, and the panels rattled in the slots when the wind picked up.
It would be the cheapest option though, as I could reuse most of the existing panels. Not sure I could dig down 3 feet to plant the posts, as there's a lot of granite down there.
I'm not really keen on concrete posts. I think they look ugly. My parents had them, and the panels rattled in the slots when the wind picked up.
It would be the cheapest option though, as I could reuse most of the existing panels. Not sure I could dig down 3 feet to plant the posts, as there's a lot of granite down there.
MattCharlton91 said:
How about using concrete slotted posts, and concrete gravel boards with a decent quality panel on top?
^^^ This is the usual answer.I've spray painted conc posts in the past.
Rattling panels can be solved too.
By all means look at the block wall but I suspect you'll end up at £5k with skips, labour and materials
I've been pricing it up. 2.5 cubic metres of readymix for the footings, and 240 215mm blocks.
I had no idea blocks were so expensive. They seem to be about £4.40 each (Travis Perkins) without a trade discount, which is crazy.
By the time I add in mortar, render, etc. that's £1500 for materials for the wall. Hit and miss fence on top of the wall adds another £500.
I can lose the soil in the garden (raised area), and build the fence myself. My mate will help me dig the footings in exchange for me helping with his cars. My sister in law can probably build the wall, and can render it no problem (she's a plasterer), but I'll bung her a few quid as it's a few days work.
I've got a price on 11 concrete posts (9ft) and 18 gravel boards (2 runs of 300mm). £600, probably get a discount on that for cash. I can reuse most of the existing fence panels, so the total cost will be around £700. This is looking like the sensible option.
The place that quoted me for the posts and boards actually makes them. I could get them in a darker grey, rather than the standard cement colour, to make them less stark.
I had no idea blocks were so expensive. They seem to be about £4.40 each (Travis Perkins) without a trade discount, which is crazy.
By the time I add in mortar, render, etc. that's £1500 for materials for the wall. Hit and miss fence on top of the wall adds another £500.
I can lose the soil in the garden (raised area), and build the fence myself. My mate will help me dig the footings in exchange for me helping with his cars. My sister in law can probably build the wall, and can render it no problem (she's a plasterer), but I'll bung her a few quid as it's a few days work.
I've got a price on 11 concrete posts (9ft) and 18 gravel boards (2 runs of 300mm). £600, probably get a discount on that for cash. I can reuse most of the existing fence panels, so the total cost will be around £700. This is looking like the sensible option.
The place that quoted me for the posts and boards actually makes them. I could get them in a darker grey, rather than the standard cement colour, to make them less stark.
clockworks said:
I had no idea blocks were so expensive. They seem to be about £4.40 each (Travis Perkins) without a trade discount.
Last time I bought them (around a year ago) in pallet quantities they were approx £1ea - try an independant merchantEDIT £1.50ea in Wickes and they aren't cheap
Assuming you're in zone 3, 200mm blocks gets you an 850mm wall, so yes, you will need the thickness. That said, can't you just lay 100mm solid blocks on their side to create 215mm blocks? Alternatively, 140mm blocks are much cheaper and should get you to about half a metre safely. You could then fence up from there.
Yes, zone 3, but reasonably sheltered. Like I said earlier, the original 100mm 3 foot block walls on the other 2 sides of the garden have been there for 50 years, so the wind loading can't be that bad here. Don't want to push my luck though.
100mm blocks laid on their sides sounds like a good solution. I'd expected blocks to be priced pretty much on volume, so a 200mm should be twice the price of a 100mm? Maybe the 100mm are cheaper by volume because they sell so many more of them?
Mate has a trade account at the local RGB, so we'll get a quote for both sizes next week, then decide what to do.
100mm blocks laid on their sides sounds like a good solution. I'd expected blocks to be priced pretty much on volume, so a 200mm should be twice the price of a 100mm? Maybe the 100mm are cheaper by volume because they sell so many more of them?
Mate has a trade account at the local RGB, so we'll get a quote for both sizes next week, then decide what to do.
Using a decent quality panel will solve the majority of the rattle issues, as the battens and featheredge sit good and snug inside the slot. You can also buy anti-lift out clips, which will complete get rid of any rattle. What is the ground type like? Is it hard compacted stone, or looser chipping? If digging the holes manually seems a bit too labour intensive, you could hire a mini-digger with an auger attachment relatively cheaply for the day.
We recently erected a lot of chainlink around a limestone quarry, and the 3t digger with auger made light work of it. We managed to drill and set 50 posts a day.
We recently erected a lot of chainlink around a limestone quarry, and the 3t digger with auger made light work of it. We managed to drill and set 50 posts a day.
Access for a digger might be a bit tricky. It's clear on my side (once I've dug up a few rose bushes ,removed one row of patio slabs, and dismantled a pergola), but neighbour's side is a bit trickier. The ground level is between 6 and 18" lower, and he has a 10ft shed and an oil tank about a foot from the boundary. Probably OK for a post auger, but not for footings trench?
My mate asked his cousin (a builder) how much he pays for 100mm blocks. Apparently £140 for 200. At that price, building a wall is back on the table.
My mate asked his cousin (a builder) how much he pays for 100mm blocks. Apparently £140 for 200. At that price, building a wall is back on the table.
Wall is off the table again. 2.5 cuM of readymix is going to cost over £400, and that's the price for a truck with a chute too short to reach the trench. All in I'd be looking at over £1k for materials, plus maybe a week's labour and hiring a digger. Then there's the fence to go on top. Soon adds up to about £3k.
I had a recommended local fencing contractor give me a quote to install concrete posts/gravel boards, plus 3 new panels. £2.5k.
I priced up the materials to do the fence myself, with no discounts (same supplier as the contractor was going to use). Comes in at under a grand. I feel that £1.5k for labour to fit 10 concrete posts and gravel boards, then slot in the panels, is a bit rich.
His quote was based on me removing and refurbishing the existing panels. If I wanted all new panels (hit and miss), plus a new gate, it was just short of £3.5k.
So, DIY fence it is. Can't be that hard to bore 10 holes with a petrol auger and tamp in some concrete. Even if I bung a couple of mates a few hundred quid, we should be able to do the complete job for about £1.5k.
The supplier we'll be using for the concrete products offers a colouring service for the posts and boards for about a fiver extra per item. Going for slate grey, rather than pale grey natural Portland, will turn the posts and boards into a feature rather than an eyesore.
I had a recommended local fencing contractor give me a quote to install concrete posts/gravel boards, plus 3 new panels. £2.5k.
I priced up the materials to do the fence myself, with no discounts (same supplier as the contractor was going to use). Comes in at under a grand. I feel that £1.5k for labour to fit 10 concrete posts and gravel boards, then slot in the panels, is a bit rich.
His quote was based on me removing and refurbishing the existing panels. If I wanted all new panels (hit and miss), plus a new gate, it was just short of £3.5k.
So, DIY fence it is. Can't be that hard to bore 10 holes with a petrol auger and tamp in some concrete. Even if I bung a couple of mates a few hundred quid, we should be able to do the complete job for about £1.5k.
The supplier we'll be using for the concrete products offers a colouring service for the posts and boards for about a fiver extra per item. Going for slate grey, rather than pale grey natural Portland, will turn the posts and boards into a feature rather than an eyesore.
The wife and I are just finishing our fence installation.
We are eventually going to build a stone wall on our side, the fence facing the neighbours so we have dug out a 600mm wide x 400mm deep trench and then had to dig out deeper where the posts are.
16 9’ concrete posts, 15 gravel boards, 15 6’x6’ panels and 14tonnes of gravel/sand, 26bags cement -£750+vat (trade price)
Its taken us 3 weekends of 6 hour days - we are both fit and healthy, we are both broken!
A friend is coming round tomorrow to help me lift the last panels up and in as we were just too tired tonight to finish it!
We are eventually going to build a stone wall on our side, the fence facing the neighbours so we have dug out a 600mm wide x 400mm deep trench and then had to dig out deeper where the posts are.
16 9’ concrete posts, 15 gravel boards, 15 6’x6’ panels and 14tonnes of gravel/sand, 26bags cement -£750+vat (trade price)
Its taken us 3 weekends of 6 hour days - we are both fit and healthy, we are both broken!
A friend is coming round tomorrow to help me lift the last panels up and in as we were just too tired tonight to finish it!
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