Informal Planning Advice prior to Complaint?

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

Mark Benson said:

It's a very good point. Glad someone's on the ball

Letter to neighbour?
In the letter emphasise that you tried the reasonable, amicable route and since that got you nowhere you've submitted a formal planning complaint which is disclosable to any potential purchaser. Copy to agent also.

They'll probably come round and rant, but in reality that's all they'll do.

That sounds like a very good idea.

OP, in terms of timing - I don't know what the market is like where you live, but in April we agreed a sale on our house. The sale was agreed within 48hrs of the particulars hitting Rightmove and I'd filled out all the legal declaration forms within a week of the sale being agreed.

We've recently agreed to buy a house, the EA gave us the nod on the day they went to value it. We viewed the day the EA was formally instructed and agreed a sale with the vendor that day. No particulars were ever drawn up, no other parties were even aware the property was coming to the market.

My point - you need to act quickly.

My only concern - you are 100% they're putting it on the market, as this is hitting the nuclear button? You could phone the agent who's car you recognised and ask if anythings coming to the market on that particular road as you're thinking of moving, just to check?

All good points again, thank you.

The market where we are is good, but not as hot as some areas, so I would expect it to take weeks/months for the house to sell, rather than days. Nonetheless, you're right in that not informing them asap is a risk.

I agree with you about contacting the EA too to sound them out as whilst it's highly likely they're putting it on the market imminently, there's no guarantee.

Re the letter, I'm tempted just to go with the bare minimum - "please be advised that a formal complaint has been made and we are in dispute etc".
I don't feel any need to justify my actions, it's not me who is in the wrong (as will hopefully be shown by the planning department upholding the complaint).

Edited by youngsyr on Thursday 23 August 10:19

[youngsyr]

Surprise, surprise...


[For Sale Advert Removed]

Open day for viewings is a week tomorrow.

Notice that the viewing platform is the second picture on the advert, so seems a key selling point. Picture 13 has a lovely view of our garden and picture 17 shows not just our hedge, but also part of the garden next door to us (two houses away from them)!

I'm going to draft a letter to them with their estate agent copied this afternoon.

Edited by youngsyr on Friday 24th August 14:50

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

Devils Advocate here I'm afraid - Does photo 16 not show that the 2 houses to the left of your neighbour have decks at exactly the same height as theirs. Of the 4 houses in that picture it appears yours is the only one without a deck. Not sure if that has an impact with regard to planning permission.

ps. I'd also put a board in the garden stating you're dispute with your neighbour and leave it there permanently.

It's a good point, but consider that the ground level also drops from left to right (you can see by the roof lines) as well as front to back and the other decks are built from the original rear wall, not the extended rear wall which is 5m further down the hill.

Also, you can't tell from the picture, but the other neighbours' decks do not extend into the garden as far as next doors' does.

I agree though, that they probably wouldn't meet permitted development either.

[youngsyr]

WolfieBot said:

I can't really see how this sort of thing isn't inevitable when the fence top starts lower down than the level of the house?

Why isn't there a fence coming out of the back of the house meeting where the slope and the other fence starts if you want full privacy from your neighbours?

Even standing at the top of the steps where what presumably was the original patio is gives an unobstructed view into the neighbours.

Or am I completely missing something?

The fence line between our properties belongs to our neighbours (who are developers who moved in two years ago). Before they moved in, we paid for and installed a higher fence, which our current neighbours have only just removed and installed a lower one.

Also, we have asked them (and they agreed) to install a 3 foot high fence on their deck on the border of our properties. They have seemingly decided not to do so.

[youngsyr]

OP again, we had the nuclear exchange this evening!

Came back from spending the day with the family and was sitting in our front room when we noticed the neighbours peering over the fence that borders our property right next to our window. Apparently my wife (sitting on our sofa) caught the husband's eye and he looked very aggressive and mouthed something at her.

So, it seemed like the planning department had been exceptionally speedy and let them know. I went out to the garden to mow the lawn, ostensibly to give them the chance to say anything they needed to get off their chest over the (non-existent) fence. I wasn't interrupted, but noticed in the front garden that our gutter downpipe offshoot, which previously drained into a shared drain on their property had been removed and thrown over the fence onto our side.

At that point I decided to force the confrontation rather than let it linger and went around with the aim of finding out what the very obvious problem was. Only I didn't make it halfway down the drive before the wife appeared at the open first floor window and started heckling me.

What followed was a pretty nasty experience, her husband soon came out of the front door and bizarrely told me to "get out of their house", despite me still being 6 foot from their front door (on the outside!) and started to push me when I refused to leave without having an explanation of what they'd done to our pipe and why.

In the resulting "conversation", I was accused of being "a nonce" and my wife "a cockroach" by the charming neighbour's wife (former head of maths at a local school, would you believe), but we also learned that the planning department had sent them a letter which arrived this morning.

They also threatened to forcibly remove a CCTV camera I've recently put up (on their rear extension wall that borders our properties) after I only agreed to take it down once their deck was down (I was quite pleased with my response to that threat: "The funny thing with CCTV cameras is that they record what happens in front of them!").

I eventually called it a day by saying that the bottom line was they'd broken the rules and the planning department will decide who is right. They still seem convinced that they're within the rules (and that our complaint is out of jealousy) - he even mentioned the 30cm rule and how they hadn't broken it.

Just calming down from it all now, was thoroughly unpleasant experience, but I'm not sure why I expected anything else given their behaviour all the way through.

My only concern now is that the exchange has confirmed that I'm not paranoid: they are the sort of people who will take petty revenge and whilst the front and back of the properties are covered by CCTV, that won't protect our property from damage if they put their mind to it.

Anyway, thanks for reading if you made it this far, I need to get that off my chest!

[youngsyr]

garyhun said:

fking hell!

I’d be tempted to move. Life’s too short to have aholes like that in your life.

Hope you get resolution of some sort eventually.

Well, the good news is that they are intending to move and are clearly trying to move quickly given the speed with which they're arranging the open day.

I suspect they have a substantial mortgage and so any delay will cost them in interest payments plus they're both teachers, so it wouldn't surprise me of they'd planned to sell by September but were running late due to over running works.

Now we just need to get the deck down and survive the next few months.

[youngsyr]

Hub said:

youngsyr said:

Well, the good news is that they are intending to move and are clearly trying to move quickly given the speed with which they're arranging the open day.

I suspect they have a substantial mortgage and so any delay will cost them in interest payments plus they're both teachers, so it wouldn't surprise me of they'd planned to sell by September but were running late due to over running works.

Now we just need to get the deck down and survive the next few months.

They'll be there a while longer if they try to go through the planning process!

Or you're hoping they just go for the option of removing the access to the roof?

I suspect they will try for retrospective planning permission because taking it down well cost them n a lot in cash and reduction in sale price (the outside space seems to be a key feature of their advert and is obviously "unique" in the area!).

However, I also suspect that they want, and quite possibly need, to sell a quickly as possible, so that should mean they try to speed it up as quickly as possible.

[youngsyr]

Lazermilk said:

Be sure to add the dispute sign in your garden on the day of the viewing to really piss them off

If you need extra cctv then the Yi Dome 360 camera we have for checking our dog is pretty good and cheap too.

Good luck, hope they get what’s coming to them soon!

Thanks for the support.

I'm wondering about adding more cameras, but there are issues with which areas you're allowed to film and the neighbours have already made it clear that they're going to make our lives as difficult as possible as revenge for the complaint, so I don't want to give them any more ammo.

[youngsyr]

dmsims said:

youngsyr said:

I'm wondering about adding more cameras, but there are issues with which areas you're allowed to film and the neighbours have already made it clear that they're going to make our lives as difficult as possible as revenge for the complaint, so I don't want to give them any more ammo.

With a lot of cameras (certainly Hikvision, Dahua) you can mask off areas (quite a fine grid is available)

Thanks, but the areas I should techinically mask off of the recording are exactly the areas I want to record to ensure that nothing nefarious happens "off camera" that ends up damaging my property.

[youngsyr]

springfan62 said:

Any prospective purchaser will be notified of the planning issue when they carry out a local authority search.

If they decide to make a retrospective planning application this will take 8 weeks to process, possibly more.

I suspect they will take advice and realise that is probably best to take it down as this saves time and they are unlikely to get planning approved.

I'd like to agree with you, but from the "conversation" yesterday, they seem to believe that they're not even required to obtain planning and even if they are, they will be granted it.

I suspect money is also a big motivator for them - this is, after all, a business venture for them. Their asking price is also way above similar sized properties on the road that have sold recently. One went for £525,000 just weeks ago. So, I suspect they will consider it worth a shot at getting planning even if it's a long shot, because taking the deck down will cost them a lot of money (and itme, which also means more money in interest on the mortgage).

Let's also say that, in my opinion, they're not entirely rational people.

[youngsyr]

dickymint said:

Ricky146a said:

WOW!
I have been watching this thread from the start and been impressed by your restraint.

Your main concern now is to keep your family and property safe. Idiots like you have next door are not rational.
Don't know if you have already done it but make sure you put it in writing to the estate agent that you are in dispute - might sound daft now but it leaves a paper trail should that become necessary down the road.

How long had your downpipe been connected to the drain in their property?
I would look into getting that replaced as soon as possible as digging a new drain after they sell the property could be expensive.

Good luck and stay safe.

Check your deeds you may have every right for that drain pipe to be there.

That had occurred to me, but the history here is muddy. The houses were built 80 years ago and our house orginally had a separate drain. As part of our basement conversion about 30 years ago (long before we bought it) the original drain was blocked up and the shared drain installed. So, I doubt the deeds would be clear on it. The drain leads into a soak away that is under our drive, so whilst the drain cover is on their land, the bulk of the drain is actually under our land. On top of that, the drain was blocked for a long time before they bought it and we actually paid to have the drain cleared.

Obviously our neighbours have no clue about any of that and aren't interested in any case - they simply saw "our pipe on their land" and decided that they could do whatever they wanted with it.

[youngsyr]

Alex Z said:

Can’t see any of the pics or link to the for sale ad, but that sounds like a very unpleasant situation. Hopefully they’ll realise that being able to sell the house is more important and will take it down.

I took the pics and link down for privacy's sake, but if you want to see them I will send you (and anyone else who is interested) the links.

I wish I shared your optimism about them being reasonable, but every aspect of this dispute (and more) has proved to be the opposite.

[youngsyr]

Ricky146a said:

WOW!
I have been watching this thread from the start and been impressed by your restraint.

Your main concern now is to keep your family and property safe. Idiots like you have next door are not rational.
Don't know if you have already done it but make sure you put it in writing to the estate agent that you are in dispute - might sound daft now but it leaves a paper trail should that become necessary down the road.

How long had your downpipe been connected to the drain in their property?
I would look into getting that replaced as soon as possible as digging a new drain after they sell the property could be expensive.

Good luck and stay safe.

Thanks for the support! I'm with you on protecting my family and property as a priority, I actually installed CCTV on the property a little while ago as I suspected we might arrive at this point.

The shared drain had been in place for at least 30 years, although we changed the configuration slightly two years ago. We moved in about 9 years ago, they moved in about 2 years ago. They didn't even notice the drain until about 6 months ago when they cleared out all the trees and bushes in their drive which obscured it (and put a completely barren council car park in their place) and they have no idea or inclination in finding out that it actually covers a a pipe that goes under the fence and into our property to a soak away under our drive. So, in effect they have a drain cover and about two feet of pipe on their property under the ground and we have about 8 feet of pipe and a large soakaway on our side of the property.

Edited by youngsyr on Sunday 26th August 10:19

[youngsyr]

FiF said:

youngsyr said:

springfan62 said:

Any prospective purchaser will be notified of the planning issue when they carry out a local authority search.

If they decide to make a retrospective planning application this will take 8 weeks to process, possibly more.

I suspect they will take advice and realise that is probably best to take it down as this saves time and they are unlikely to get planning approved.

I'd like to agree with you, but from the "conversation" yesterday, they seem to believe that they're not even required to obtain planning and even if they are, they will be granted it.

I suspect money is also a big motivator for them - this is, after all, a business venture for them. Their asking price is also way above similar sized properties on the road that have sold recently. One went for £525,000 just weeks ago. So, I suspect they will consider it worth a shot at getting planning even if it's a long shot, because taking the deck down will cost them a lot of money (and itme, which also means more money in interest on the mortgage).

Let's also say that, in my opinion, they're not entirely rational people.

Anyone who openly threatens revenge for something like this isn't rational.

I think you need to make notes as soon as possible of exactly what was said, get a timeline record.. Include everything, be factual, don't try and ginger things up. If they do anything which could be construed as deliberate damage to your property, report to police. You will almost certainly get "It's a civil matter, sir." as an initial brush off response, but criminal damage as revenge for a civil dispute is exactly that, criminal. Bullies need to be put in their place, these people are clearly bullies.

Thanks for the advice. This thread is in part a log of what has occured from my point of view. Each entry is time stamped and is in the public domain, so even if it's not a formal log, it should have some weight.

[youngsyr]

As tempting as it may be sink to their level, I'm going to try my best to rise above it as they've already shown they're more than willing to engage in petty revenge.


What's more, quite often these situations came down to a "he said, she said" scenario and given that their hold on their objective facts of the situation are loose to say the least. I can't rely on them to tell the truth about anything.

There were a couple of good examples of this in our conversation yesterday, when we were accused of not talking to them about our issue with the deck, when we have made clear our concerns about privacy in at least 3 conversations since before they started in April .The last one being at the end of June when I made my feelings very clear and mentioned the planning permission requirement to them.

They then claimed that the first time we went around to speak to them (on a Sunday morning at around 11am), this was extremely intrusive and not welcome. So, their argument was first we didn't go around to speak to them and that was not reasonable. Then we did go around to speak to them and that was not reasonable either!

The fact that the last time we spoke (two months ago) they agreed to put up a fence and haven't yet done so, despite finishing the rest of the works to their house, holding parties on the deck and now putting it on the market with an open day in 6 days time, is apparently also not a reasonable point to raise, as they set the timeline for putting the fence up, not us.

These are the sort of people we're dealing with here!

[youngsyr]

princeperch said:

What are they expecting - you to make an appointment to speak to them?

If they were there for the long haul then I'd try and smooth this over but given what they did and said to you the other day, and the fact they have evinced an intention to move, I'd say fk them and the gloves would come off if they continue to play silly buggers.

It's impossible to reason with them, so I've given up trying. They very aggressively make an unfounded accusation, we refute it, they then make another unfounded accusation which contradicts the first one, or simply hurl a very nasty insult at us.

Let's not forget, they think they have done absolutely nothing wrong by constructing that deck from either a privacy or safety angle.

[youngsyr]

paulrockliffe said:

What of theirs is the shared drain draining? And what's the evidence that there's a right for them to use your soakaway? And what are their options if they needed to drain elsewhere?

I ask because where we grew up a house next to a farm house had a soakaway in the farmers field, but no evidence of any right to it. When it came up for sale the farmer raised the issue of the trespass and refused to grant access.

The farmer now owns the house and has granted access! The house was pretty cheap under the circumstances.

If there's no evidence of any right and limited options, you could deny access and leave them unable to sell without your cooperation. Which would allow you to dictate terms re the deck, or be a complete wker about it if you like.

Thanks for that - very useful information. There is a single drain pipe which is fed from the middle of the roof at the front of our properties. Rainwater that falls on either side of the boundary on the front of the roof is drained via that pipe. In addition to that pipe, we have fed another down pipe from the far side of our roof into that drain.

It sounds like that could be another piece of leverage, I just need to think whether it would work and whether I should it to force the removal of the deck before the planning enforcement team respond or afterwards if they come back and favour our neighbours.

[youngsyr]

Little Lofty said:

Check to see if they needed planning permission to extend their drive, maybe something else they’ve tried to get away with.

Another good point, thanks. As far as I can tell, the only planning rule they may fall fould of re the driveway is using a non-porous material. They have used a resin/gravel mix to finish their drive, so I'm assuming this is porous, surely they and their builders would not have been stupid enough to use a non-porous material?!

[youngsyr]

I've started trying to figure out the drain issue, but as it's a standalone issue from this thread, I've started a specific thread for it:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

OP - have you informed the EA of the dispute?

Not yet, got as far as drafting the letter and wanted to sleep on it before sending. The "nuclear" confrontation happened that evening, so I put it on hold.

Technically we now have at least 3 disputes: the deck, the drain and our CCTV, so want to consider what to put in a letter and how.

Wife suggested bring a solicitor to draft it and deal with any response. I think that may be a good idea.