Informal Planning Advice prior to Complaint?

[youngsyr]

Trophy Husband said:

Both teachers you say? Do you have children? If so did your children witness the dreadful behaviour of this pair of educators?

If it were me I'd be reporting them both immediately to the Local Education Authority at the highest level for threatening and abusive behaviour having first presented the catalyst for their behaviour in as impartial a manner as possible and then include the spiteful actions of removing your roof water drainage. I'm talking Chief Exec and copy in your local MP at the same time and if you know where they teach copy in the Board of Governors also. Work smart not hard.

Oftentimes it is best to take the strongest approach at the earliest stage and given that it now appears that only they have something to lose they will likely back down. If it were me I'd be happy to ruin them after such dreadful behaviour.

Bully the bullies.

Edited by Trophy Husband on Monday 27th August 18:03

That's another interesting angle, thanks for mentioning it! I'm reluctant to escalate this beyond the absolute minimum as I've already seen how they react to being challenged, but it's yet another piece of leverage that I can keep in my back pocket for potential future use.

[youngsyr]

HairyMaclary said:

Trophy Husband said:

Both teachers you say? Do you have children? If so did your children witness the dreadful behaviour of this pair of educators?

If it were me I'd be reporting them both immediately to the Local Education Authority at the highest level for threatening and abusive behaviour having first presented the catalyst for their behaviour in as impartial a manner as possible and then include the spiteful actions of removing your roof water drainage. I'm talking Chief Exec and copy in your local MP at the same time and if you know where they teach copy in the Board of Governors also. Work smart not hard.

Oftentimes it is best to take the strongest approach at the earliest stage and given that it now appears that only they have something to lose they will likely back down. If it were me I'd be happy to ruin them after such dreadful behaviour.

Bully the bullies.

Edited by Trophy Husband on Monday 27th August 18:03

Wtf? What has their profession got to do with it? If they weren't teachers you would report them to their boss if you know where they worked?

This is very bad advice.

Op hope you get it sortrd.

Whilst Trophy Hunter takes it to an extreme (presumably for humours sake) I do agree that has a point.

Certain professions require certain standards from their practitioners in all aspects of their lives, not just during their professional activities. Teaching is one of those professions.

[youngsyr]

This picture is now in the public domain via the neighbours' estate agent and doesn't show any priviledged information as far as I can see, so I don't think there's any harm in sharing it for newcomers to the thread.

I count at least 9 steps down from the highest platform level to the level of the grass. That grass level is the same level as our lawn ( which covers approximately 50% of our garden).

[youngsyr]

I'm actually starting to find the situation farcical now - not only have the neighbours shot themselves in the foot over the drain issue (I can't find any legal right for them to drain water through it and into the soakaway that is located entirely on our property), but this morning the wife (neighbour) stood on the deck whilst I was in the garden and took a picture of the back of our house on her phone.

Now, she may argue that she was taking a picture of the location of a disputed CCTV camera, but I would argue that next to the CCTV camera are the French Doors of my son's play room, which also happened to be open at the time and she could not have avoided including in the picture.

So, my view on it is that she has just leaned over the fence onto our property and taken an unauthorised picture of the interior of my son's playroom.

Even better, for harassment to be considered by the courts, the activity needs to be repeated on at least two occasions. The insults (in the presence of my son) on Saturday was the first by her, this is now the second of harassment of not only me, but also of my very young son.

Not exactly upstanding behaviour from a school teacher!

Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 28th August 15:30

[youngsyr]

I hear you all loud and clear and agree with you! However, my wife is less confrontational than I am and has been reluctant to move quickly all the way through to avoid a nasty dispute.

However, it seems like we have a nasty dispute anyway, so I think she's coming around to the idea of using as much leverage as possible as soon as possible.

I have an extremely strongly worded 1,500 word letter detailing all of the disputes and harassment to date and who we will report to if it continues (police and school), including a cease and desist notice for their use of our soakaway, notice of withdrawal of any implied access rights for them (and anyone they know or employ essentially) to our property, a demand that all non-written communication from them cease immediately and the fact that we are nonetheless still open to negotiating (in writing). The letter will also be cc'ed to their Estate Agent and their prospective Conveyancing Solicitor, c/o the Estate agent.

I expect an equally strong reaction as per our planning complaint, so I have also spent today making sure the CCTV is working perfectly.

[youngsyr]

JQ said:

I think you're massively over-thinking this. You're treating this as though it's going to be some protracted dispute played out in the courts for years to come ("keeping stuff in your back pocket for future use"). It's not, what will most likely happen is that your neighbour won't tell their EA or Solicitor about the dispute, they'll get a sale agreed on the house, lie on the declaration form (like plenty of people have done in the past), the planning issue won't be flagged in the searches and the house will get sold and you'll then be faced with having an argument with the new neighbours who are likely to be next door to you for many years to come.

You need to inform either the EA or solicitor of the dispute. As you can't find out who the solicitor is, then it needs to be the EA.

I respectfully disagree with you here JQ, the fact that the wife next door has today been photographing the rear of our property clearly indicates to me that they are looking for an angle for revenge or possible leverage to keep the deck (they may well think that it's still a dispute between neighbours, rather than being a dispute between them and the planning department).

Nonetheless, I agree that we need to act quickly and I intend to do so.

[youngsyr]

don'tbesilly said:

youngsyr said:

JQ said:

I think you're massively over-thinking this. You're treating this as though it's going to be some protracted dispute played out in the courts for years to come ("keeping stuff in your back pocket for future use"). It's not, what will most likely happen is that your neighbour won't tell their EA or Solicitor about the dispute, they'll get a sale agreed on the house, lie on the declaration form (like plenty of people have done in the past), the planning issue won't be flagged in the searches and the house will get sold and you'll then be faced with having an argument with the new neighbours who are likely to be next door to you for many years to come.

You need to inform either the EA or solicitor of the dispute. As you can't find out who the solicitor is, then it needs to be the EA.

I respectfully disagree with you here JQ, the fact that the wife next door has today been photographing the rear of our property clearly indicates to me that they are looking for an angle for revenge or possible leverage to keep the deck (they may well think that it's still a dispute between neighbours, rather than being a dispute between them and the planning department).

Nonetheless, I agree that we need to act quickly and I intend to do so.

With respect, what makes you think any of that?

What sort of revenge do you think they could possibly come up with?
What sort of leverage could the wife come up with whilst standing on a deck that clearly contravenes PP, and is arguably a dangerous structure.

As above, you are over thinking this and possibly becoming a little paranoid at the same time.

I'd be doing everything that has been sensibly suggested to date in getting a situation that could rapidly get out of hand in hand, and as soon as is possible.

I'm far from convinced that involving this couples employers in your dispute falls under a 'sensible suggestion' and falls under 'getting out of hand' .

I can see your problem and the frustration, however you are in danger of becoming no better than your neighbours, and rising above it is undoubtedly your best course of action.

The downpipe incident is petty and childish on the part of your neighbours, easily rectified once the house next door is sold and with the new neighbours cooperation, a story about the couple who sold them the house, and bottle of wine as a moving in gift, and it's sorted.

Good luck, and I hope it's sorted soon.

With respect, I don't think you fully understand this situation. I had to endure a shouted tirade both whilst halfway down their drive from the neighbouring wife from their first floor window and then from them both across the fence once I'd returned to my property. During this she threw all sorts of insults at both me and my wife, some of them pretty nasty.

That was just for me going around to ask what they'd done to the drain pipe.

Before I'd even done that, the husband had peered across the fence into my front room and mouthed something at my wife aggressively before forcibly removing part of our drainage system.

What's more, before we even put the complaint in, we tried the softly, softly approach with them all summer and had it thrown back in our face.

These are not reasonable, rational people and I won't stand for my family being bullied, harassed or insulted by them.

[youngsyr]

tighnamara said:

I am presuming that the level of the decking is the same as the patio doors on the house.
Slightly different but similar and all be it in Scotland, we had a neighbour who built high decking that gave them the view they wanted but also overlooked other gardens.

A complaint was put in by in one of the neighbours and they had to apply for retrospect planning permission.
They knocked a door through from the house so that the level of the decking was that of the house and planning was then approved as the level was that of the living area in the house.
Crazy as they definetely overlook but not as extreme as your situation.

Is the decking the same level as the floor in the house and does the house lead directly to the decking ?

The decking does lead directly and at the same level via a large bi-fold door from their kitchen diner.

Perhaps it's different in Scotland, but I haven't seen any allowance for decking to be elevated to floor level in the house in any of the rules or reports?

Also, there is a 3/4 high storage cupboard underneath the decking accessed via the lawn, I don't know if this would impact on whether the decking could be considered floor level?

[youngsyr]

Latest matter that has come to my attention: next doors have recently installed a new downpipe from their roof guttering to ground level and possibly deeper.

I've just had a quick look and I cannot see what the downpipe drains into, there is simply a small square cut out (about 12" square) of the ground that the pipe disappears into.

I'm not sure how there can be a drain in that location? See picture below, red arrow is there new downpipe, green arrow shows our new downpipe and how it feeds through the fence to the drain on their side of the property into the original drain for the properties (purple arrow).

Yellow arrows show absence of such a pipe on any of the other 3 properties, which when they were built, were carbon copies of each other (including guttering, downpipe and soil pipe positions).

I've checked a photo of the properties from immediately before the developing neighbours purchased their house. The red downpipe was not fitted at that point. Both the bay window and the porch (which border the new drain position on either side) were in place when next door were purchased, there wasn't a soakaway installed at the front of the property and we were never consulted about any drainage works.

[youngsyr]

Joe M said:

Confused about the drain, it comes down the downpipe, through the fence, into drain, then back under your garden to the soakaway? Was it always like that or a modification when your front was landscaped? Right or wrong, I think that pipe would annoy me, no reason for it not to go straight down instead of through the fence.

OK, the history with the drainage at the front of our property is a long and boring story going back through several configuration changes over 30 years or so.

To try to cut it short, when we moved in 8.5 years ago, we only had the purple arrowed (shared) drain at the front of the property. The rest of the front roof's water was routed to the rear of the property by our guttering.

A couple of years after we moved in, we noticed that the existing (purple arrowed) shared drain at the front of our properties was blocked. The previous owner of next door was mentally ill (not an insult, she was diagnosed bipolar and shared this with us) and short of cash, so we installed a water butt on our side of the fence and diverted that purple arrowed downpipe into it to avoid her having to pay anything towards unblocking the drain.

Several years later, the lady next door sold to the current owners who immediately began developing the property. At the purchase date, they couldn't even see the drainage set up due to overgrown bushes.

We then began a loft conversion, which removed the guttering route from the front of our property to the rear and had to find a more permanent solution for the roof runoff water at the front of our property. At this point, we asked the new neighbours if they would allow a plumber access to unblock the shared drain and allow us to run a pipe into it if we paid. They agreed and the plumber visited and unblocked the drain. He also confirmed the route of the underground pipe for the drain directly back under the fence and into the middle of our drive to a soakaway.

The neighbours seem to have conveniently forgotten that this conversation ever happened (just as they conveniently forgot that we went around to talk to them about our concerns on their works months ago).

[youngsyr]

Evolved said:

So you actually have gone onto their property to drain, it runs across the front of your property and through the fence? Any clearer pics showing the setup?

Yes, but they agreed to this and this setup replaced the previous set up which existed when the neighbours moved in, which was that their pipe crossed through the fence onto our property and into a water butt.

I'll try and put a diagram up later.

[youngsyr]

Letter hand delivered to the neighbours last night and copied to the EA and conveyancing solicitors (c/o of the EA) today.

All quiet so far and the EA were suprisingly pleasant - even thanked me for bringing it to their attention.

Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 29th August 21:06

[youngsyr]

Evolved said:

No problem, pics would help.

The problem you’ll may face here is, unless it’s agreed and written up in the deeds etc, it’s all done with a handshake. Given the breakdown of relations, they’re well within their right to cancel that agreement? Or am I missing something?
On the drainage issue, if I’m understanding it right, you may be best to wait until they’re out of the picture, and then reinstate the setup as it was before. It looks as though it’s a bit of tit for tat re the drainage.

The main bone of contention is the decking, focus on that for now as they’re clearly taking the mick there.

The issue with first drain is now all done and dusted - we don't have the right to use their drain and they don't have the right to use our soakaway, so a cease and desist notice from us to them was already included in the letter I delivered yesterday.

This is a new issue, they have put in a new downpipe to an area where I'm pretty sure there isn't a drain. This isn't a dispute with us, but is potential ammo if we were to draw it to the attention of the council (or whichever authority ensures proper drainage from residential buildings).

They have taken this dispute way further than the deck - they have insulted and abused both me and my wife within my young son's presence and she has photographed the interior of his playroom from the unlawful deck. Also, the decking complaint is now out of my hands, it's between the neighbours and the planning department.

My aims now are to protect me and mine, to get their sale completed quickly, but ensure we get the deck down and access to the drain.

[youngsyr]

snake_oil said:

I'm no plumber type guy but can't you simply dig a drain into your own soakaway?

Yes, that was the issue with the first drain, which has now been resolved (or at least we have issued a cease and desist notice to our neighbours and will sort out our own drainage for that.

This is a new issue with a new drain pipe which they have installed in addition to the originally disputed drain pipe.

They have installed a new downpipe to ground level (red arrow in picture) which I don't think has a proper drain.

[youngsyr]

Munter said:

youngsyr said:

...and the solicitors were suprisingly pleasant - even thanked me for bringing it to their attention.

I suspect you just earned them at least £100 in fees. So yes.

Apologies, I mixed up my professions - I only saw the Estate Agents, that's whom I gave both letters to. I don't know who their solicitors are (yet!).

And I suspect it will be rather more than £100 in fees, there were at least 7 legal issues I set out in the letter:

1) dispute over deck
2) harassment of us by the wife
3) unauthorised photography on private land
4) harassment of us by the husband
5) threats of criminal damage by the husband
6) withdrawal of right of access to our property for them
7) cease and desist notice re drain

That's quite a lot for a solicitor to advise on!

Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 29th August 21:25

[youngsyr]

FiF said:

Slightly mischievous thought. On open viewing day, do you know anyone with a few chickens, plus preferably a really voluble cockerel?

I'm sorely tempted to have a much overdue bonfire in my garden as close to their deck as possible on the day of the viewings, but that would be sinking to their level.

I feel we've played a strong hand and shown that we won't just roll over and go away, so hopefully they've got the message and will start to be reasonable.

My expectations of them being reasonable have been misplaced on more than one occasion in the past though.

[youngsyr]

avstar said:

Regarding soakway, you need to contact the local water auth as they will be more interested in customers messing with sewerage piping that they own. you will get better leverage with them...

Why would the water authority own the soakaway - it is entirely located on our land (under our drive) and I believe that a previous owner paid to have it installed.

[youngsyr]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I like your train of thought, but it's porous - there was downpour yesterday and pooled water on the pavements yesterday, but not on their drive.

[youngsyr]

avstar said:

Sorry maybe Im confused, does the soakway go across the front of all the properties, therefore shared? If so then it will be owned by the local water board who charge you for sewerage on your bills. If its a private one do you have a septic tank which you get emptied privately?

No need to apologise - the drainage at the front of the properties is far from the usual set up or even the original set up and I'm struggling to explain it without going into all of the historic changes that have ever been made.

The soakaway is located entirely under our drive and was installed at least 50 years after the properties were originally built.

I understand that the only drains that feed into it are the purple arrowed downpipe and drain that takes water from the middle of our shared roof, previously the green arrowed downpipe which takes water from the farside of the front of our roof to the purple arrowed drain and possibly a small drainage channel which only runs across the front of our drive about 6 feet from our front door.

[youngsyr]

dickymint said:

As an aside - are you eligible for lower water rates for having your own soakaway?

Thanks for the tip, I wasn't aware of that, but will look into it.