Informal Planning Advice prior to Complaint?

[youngsyr]

Minor update:

Woke up this morning to two of next door's outdoor sofa cushions halfway across our garden and next door's garden furniture which has been in pride of place on their viewing platform, sitting on their lawn. No sign of the flower pot border they'd put on the edge of the platform nearest the border either.

Quick check of the CCTV handily aimed down the garden shows clearly that at 6.52am, a gust of wind caught the plant pots, sofa and sofa cushions and flung the cushions across our garden, knocked over a large plant pot so it was hanging precariously on top of the fence between our properties and shifted the entire sofa about 6"!

The neighbours then scuttled out about 5 mintues later and hastily removed all the above from the platform. Was disappointed not to see them pondering the cushions in our garden, but that must have wound them up nicely on their way to work!

After debating what to do for a short while, I took the opportunity to return the cushions to the front door whilst they were out and have a good look at the new "drain" they'd installed at the front (see separate thread here for that: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... ).

Checked the weather forecast and winds were approximately 15mph with up to 25mph gusts today, so not exactly hurricane force!

To think they mocked us for complaining about the safety of their viewing platform!

Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 18th September 18:03

[youngsyr]

StuTheGrouch said:

I hope you've kept some high quality pictures of that!

I've got it on video backed up in several places.

Another minor update: both of the local planning consultants called me back this morning and are willing to submit my objection to any application by next door on my behalf with a quick turnaround.

Fees quoted were £450 and £1,000. Thankfully the cheaper option is my preferred one in any case.

Building Control have also emailed me back asking for further details of the work performed next door, which I have gratefully supplied.

[youngsyr]

StuTheGrouch said:

Any news?

Let's just say I'm pulling a lot of strings, but trying to keep a low profile. ;-)

Will update the thread when the situation is a little more clear. Likely not for another couple of weeks at least.

I promise it will be an entertaining read though, either way!

[youngsyr]

OP here.

I won't comment on the above speculation (yet), but if anyone is following closely, you may well have noticed that the web adverts have been taken down from the internet entirely and I can tell you the "Sold STC" sign at the front of the property has been removed - all long before any exchange.

When have you ever known an estate agent to be so quick to remove their bragging "Sold" adverts that they'd do it even before the sale has been completed...

[youngsyr]

StuTheGrouch said:

Any news?

Things are moving on, but I still don't want to make any of it public yet. Rest assured, I'll give a full update when the time is right, probably in about a month or so.

Unfortunately, planning disputes seem to drag on and on.

[youngsyr]

Just thought I'd give a quick update by way of thanks to all those who have offered helpful advice over the course of the thread.

I won't go into details yet as there are at least two other sets of solicitors involved (potentially increasing to 4 sets this week), so I'm playing my cards close to my chest.

What I can say is that next door eventually submitted a retrospective planning application by what looks like one of their mates and they fluffed it the first time as the Planning Department wouldn't even validate it as a complete application. They then resubmitted after another week or so had passed and the decision on the revised application is due on 29 November, so I'll update again then, probably with a lot more detail.

As some of you may be aware from my other threads asking for help on specific matters, the planning dispute is just the tip of the iceberg and next door have had quite some trouble in trying to sell their house - indeed it appears that the sale they agreed a few weeks back has fallen through and the property is now back on the market with a different agent.

[youngsyr]

Bungleaio said:

It sounds like you are having some right fun and games.

Failing to validate is a pretty regular occurance with some planning authorities, I submit them to one in particular who won't give any information about what they want to see until its submitted. Then they ask for something that they have never asked for before, very annoying.

Honestly I could write a small book, let alone an internet post on everything that has happened over the past 6 weeks and we're still only at the start of the whole process!

[youngsyr]

Well, retrospective planning, including a 5 foot high obscured glass partition along the side of the platform bordering us, has been granted.

I'm gutted to be honest, genuinely thought we would get a different decision.

Will update the thread with the full story a bit later.

[youngsyr]

blueg33 said:

This is the problem with retrospective applications, the planners are wary of forcing people to remove things, so the tests are less stringently applied - in my view this is wrong.

Op did the Officer recommend this for approval? Did it go to Committee? Did the Committee visit the site? Did you present at the Committee Meeting? Did your neighbours present at the Committee Meeting?

Wasn't recommended to Committee, was simply approved at the planning officer level, as far as I'm aware.

[youngsyr]

blueg33 said:

youngsyr said:

Wasn't recommended to Committee, was simply approved at the planning officer level, as far as I'm aware.

How many objections were there? Some authorities will go to committee if their are at least x objections.

I would be looking at proceedure. I would have also lobbies my councillor to demand it goes to committee

There were 3 objections.

From what I understand, from here on in it's in the legal realm and would require solicitors to have even a chance of success.

Not sure I want to take that gamble to be honest.

[youngsyr]

In my disappointment with the result, I missed something important in the approval letter:

Permission has been granted for the platform with a 1.8m obscured glass partition.

BUT, the application was for a 1.5m obscured glass partition and it is this that we objected against.

I'm really struggling to understand the decision notice - nowhere in any of the application is a partition of 1.8m mentioned, on all the drawings, notices, summaries, etc it has always been 1.5m that was being applied for.

We objected to this on the basis that people over 5 ft (1.5m) could see over it, back into our lounge.

Now the decision notice has come through, referencing the application being approved, but stating the partition must be 1.8m.

Where does this leave me - I haven't had a chance to object to (or even be notified of) a 1.8m high barrier?!

Edited by youngsyr on Tuesday 27th November 19:14

[youngsyr]

blueg33 said:

They made a last minute change to overcome your objection.

Did you object on any other grounds? Eg overbearing?

Thanks for the reply, sorry if my tone is a bit short; this is really frustrating.


Yes, we did object on over bearing, but it main ficus was on inter visibility as this was the main issue with the application as submitted.

I don't understand how they can just change the application without telling anyone? I thought they were obligated to notify affected parties of the details of the application - isn't that the whole point of the exercise?

How can a neighbour object to an application that they know nothing about?

[youngsyr]

blueg33 said:

youngsyr said:

blueg33 said:

They made a last minute change to overcome your objection.

Did you object on any other grounds? Eg overbearing?

Thanks for the reply, sorry if my tone is a bit short; this is really frustrating.


Yes, we did object on over bearing, but it main ficus was on inter visibility as this was the main issue with the application as submitted.

I don't understand how they can just change the application without telling anyone? I thought they were obligated to notify affected parties of the details of the application - isn't that the whole point of the exercise?

How can a neighbour object to an application that they know nothing about?

A minor change (subjective I know) is often made to overcome objections.

The whole thing is annoying, but like Desolate, I think that you need to move on, its really too small to think about legal challenge and Judicial Review, and even if you did go this route, it basically looks at procedure and if procedure has been ignored would the outcome have been different.

Thanks for the advice, as frustrating as it is, I think you're right in that we're just going to have to suck it up and try to look on the bright side.

I guess at least when we eventually decide to sell up, getting a whopping great extension with raised deck through planning as a potential add on for the new buyer should be easy enough.

The only remaining angle is that the planning approval has a condition that the partition must be in place by one month from the approval date. This means that the owners have until 23 December to order and install a 6ft high glass partition along 4 metres of the platform.

My experience of ordering and installing glass balustrades says they haven't got a hope in hell of meeting that deadline, but as it seems with everything else with this process, I bet their failure to meet that condition is ultimately meaningless and they can end up putting it up whenever they like.

[youngsyr]

ThorB said:

Out of curiosity, have the other issues with your neighbours been resolved? How's the atmosphere on the driveway these days?

Atmosphere is frosty to say the least, but thankfully they are out most of the time.

The other issues remain unresolved, but it seems that the neighbours are attempting to push a sale through without acknowledging them, complicit with the estate agent (that's another long story).

[youngsyr]

FiF said:

It all depends on the council. Guy built extension, garage and boundary wall without any planning approval, not even an application. He was forced under threat of having to tear it down to apply for retrospective planning approval. With reluctance approval was granted for the extension and the garage, but not the wall. He didn't remove it, later received a tear it down order, which he appealed. The result of the appeal by the inspector was to deny it and confirm the "Mr Gorbachev, tear down that wall" demand. 5 years later it's still there. On the other hand all the neighbouring dogs, including ours, use it for a literal pissing contest, and we know it winds the owners up so ain't all bad.

What's the betting they don't build the screen.

Well. I guess that's where we do have at least some leverage, as the neighbours are trying to sell up to take their profit, so I'd hope not having the partition would be a block to their sale.

I'm willing to bet they don't have it up by 23 December though and so technically breach their approval and that ultimately nothing comes of it.

Seems that I'm the only one who plays by the rules and yet I'm the one who gets the shty end of the stick.

[youngsyr]

Lazermilk said:

Sorry to hear they got away with it, I didn't think they would!

Does this mean they now have to declare a dispute with their neighbour when selling also?

Thanks, I suppose it did take them 3 attempts at the planning to get away with it and the last one was very underhand (basically a closed door meeting between the planning officer and the neighbours to decide what would be permitted).

I'm assuming that now they have (conditional) planning approval, there is no dispute to declare re the platform.

[youngsyr]

desolate said:

youngsyr said:

Thanks, I suppose it did take them 3 attempts at the planning to get away with it and the last one was very underhand (basically a closed door meeting between the planning officer and the neighbours to decide what would be permitted).

I'm assuming that now they have (conditional) planning approval, there is no dispute to declare re the platform.

Judging by your other threads there are loads of disputes to declare.
As the main battle has been lost you may as well retreat and try and get off to a good start with your new neighbours. Or move.

These things can consume you.

I think that's probably the best route - I could try and drag this out, but ultimately the end result is likely to be the same.

Just incredibly frustrating that they won't even have to live with what they've done, whereas we will.

[youngsyr]

Today is the 20th December and as expected no work has yet begun on installing the partition. The wording of the planning approval is as follows:

Planning Decision Notice said:

...permission is granted, subject to compliance with the following conditions:...


2. Within one month of the date of this permission [23 November 2018], the privacy screen as identified on the approved drawing [REF] shall be erected along the perimeter boundary of the raised decking area with [MY ADDRESS] and shall be retained as approved in perpetuity

So, clearly the neighbours are unlikely to meet that condition. My guess is that they'll be lucky to get the glass ordered and in place by mid January.

Not really sure how that helps anything, but I would like to be able to document that the partition wasn't in place by the date required by the permission (this Sunday) in case I need it in the future.

What's the best way to do this?

Best idea I can come up with at the moment is to buy 3 disposable cameras and take photos of the Times newspaper front page clearly showing the date (after the deadline) first, then take pictures of the deck clearly showing no partition.

Am I right in thinking that it would be extremely difficult to fake that process so that the pictures of non-compliant deck could be taken before the date on the newspaper?

Is there an easier or better way?

[youngsyr]

Equus said:

youngsyr said:

Not really sure how that helps anything, but I would like to be able to document that the partition wasn't in place by the date required by the permission (this Sunday) in case I need it in the future.

What's the best way to do this?

They are now in breach of the Planning consent. Report it to the Planning Department as an enforcement issue, simple as that. The Case Officer (probably - most LPA's now make it the Officer's responsibility to enforce their own consents, rather than passing it to a specific Enforcement Officer) will take it from there.

Thanks for the info. Any insight into what the enforcement officer might do - my suspiciions is: simply give them another month to put it up?

The situation is slightly complex as the neighbours have the house on the market.

Thinking about it rationally, if my options for getting the platform lowered are exhausted, then it probably serves me best not to report it and just sit on my hands in the hope that they sell and move on as soon as possible.

Making a fuss about them breaching the permission is likely to slow that process down, so my thinking is if I'm not going to get anything out of it, then I might as well not do it.

Would you agree?

[youngsyr]

Equus said:

youngsyr said:

Thanks for the info. Any insight into what the enforcement officer will do - simply give them another month to put it up?

Essentially, probably yes.

But wheels will be put in motion to take further action, if they fail to respond, and once an enforcement case has been triggered (and especially if you keep on the LPA's back), it won't generally go away.

Read this if you want a better understanding of how the system works, and the options that are available to the LPA's.

Thanks Equus, that immediately gets my back up though, the following phrases in particular:

Government Guidelines said:

...although a local planning authority may invite an application, it cannot be assumed that permission will be granted, and the local planning authority should take care not to fetter its discretion prior to the determination of any application for planning permission__ – such an application __must be considered in the normal way;

Government Guidelines said:

A person who has undertaken unauthorised development has only one opportunity to obtain planning permission after the event.

Given that the neighbours submitted an application for a 1.5m partition, this wasn't acceptable and the planning department then allowed them to alter their application to a 1.8m partition, without notifying any neighbours or people who had objected to the first application, extended the deadline by a week and then granted permission. I would say neither of the above two policies were followed.

I'll try to read on with the rest when I've calmed down a bit!

Edited by youngsyr on Thursday 20th December 20:07