low pressure on incoming water main
Discussion
Morning all,
I've got a single flat in a converted Victorian terraced house (comprised of one ground floor flat, one 1st floor flat).
A new tenant reported that the electric shower wasn't working. Interestingly, none of the previous tenants have ever reported an issue with the shower. When this was first reported the shower was replaced. The tenant then reported the new shower wasn't working but every time my plumber visited it WAS working. The tenant then claimed that the shower worked first thing in the morning but sometimes not at other times so the suspicion was a possible low pressure issue. This was backed up by running another tap when the the shower was on and causing the shower flow to drop right off.
Contacted the water supplier to carry out a free leak/pressure check. No leaks detected. The property is fed by a lead pipe from the main out in the street to the front porch where there is a stopcock that isolates the water to the entire property (ground floor/1st floor flats). After this stopcock, the feed into the property is a single modern MDPE blue pipe which runs into a utility room in the ground floor flat and then splits into two feeds; one feeding the ground floor flat (via water meter and stopcock) and one going up into the flat above and feeding that via another water meter upstairs and stopcock.
At the boundary of the property out in the street, the pressure is reportedly 2 bar with a flow of 25 litres/min. At the kitchen tap in the ground floor flat, the pressure is 1.5 bar with a flow of 8 litres/min. The report "suspects" that the old lead pipe from the main in the street up to the property is "not wide enough to give desired flow rate."
The report suggests 1 of 3 options to rectify:
1 Replace lead pipe from property to boundary
2 install new supply so each flat has it's own individual water supply
3 fit booster pump
Option 3 seems the best option in terms of quickness, cost, and lack of disruption, it would also mean not having to get the agreement of the other flat owner. Has anyone had any experience of these booster pumps? Can anyone recommend one? Is this option likely to cure this shower issue? Obviously there is a colossal price difference to fitting a pump compared to digging up the front of the property to replace old lead pipe, not to mention the front of the property is block paved for parking.
Would appreciate any help from others who have experienced low mains pressure.
Cheers
I've got a single flat in a converted Victorian terraced house (comprised of one ground floor flat, one 1st floor flat).
A new tenant reported that the electric shower wasn't working. Interestingly, none of the previous tenants have ever reported an issue with the shower. When this was first reported the shower was replaced. The tenant then reported the new shower wasn't working but every time my plumber visited it WAS working. The tenant then claimed that the shower worked first thing in the morning but sometimes not at other times so the suspicion was a possible low pressure issue. This was backed up by running another tap when the the shower was on and causing the shower flow to drop right off.
Contacted the water supplier to carry out a free leak/pressure check. No leaks detected. The property is fed by a lead pipe from the main out in the street to the front porch where there is a stopcock that isolates the water to the entire property (ground floor/1st floor flats). After this stopcock, the feed into the property is a single modern MDPE blue pipe which runs into a utility room in the ground floor flat and then splits into two feeds; one feeding the ground floor flat (via water meter and stopcock) and one going up into the flat above and feeding that via another water meter upstairs and stopcock.
At the boundary of the property out in the street, the pressure is reportedly 2 bar with a flow of 25 litres/min. At the kitchen tap in the ground floor flat, the pressure is 1.5 bar with a flow of 8 litres/min. The report "suspects" that the old lead pipe from the main in the street up to the property is "not wide enough to give desired flow rate."
The report suggests 1 of 3 options to rectify:
1 Replace lead pipe from property to boundary
2 install new supply so each flat has it's own individual water supply
3 fit booster pump
Option 3 seems the best option in terms of quickness, cost, and lack of disruption, it would also mean not having to get the agreement of the other flat owner. Has anyone had any experience of these booster pumps? Can anyone recommend one? Is this option likely to cure this shower issue? Obviously there is a colossal price difference to fitting a pump compared to digging up the front of the property to replace old lead pipe, not to mention the front of the property is block paved for parking.
Would appreciate any help from others who have experienced low mains pressure.
Cheers
Edited by Toilet Duck on Saturday 13th October 11:57
Edited by Toilet Duck on Saturday 13th October 11:57
I've been looking into this recently, as I want to increase my flow from 8lpm, and too have a lead pipe from the meter to my property.
Been quoted around £1000 to mole in a new pipe, but this also involved lifting the kitchen floor.
You want to be to looking at Homeboost pumps.Salamander would be the cheapest solution, though favouring the Stuart Turner pumps for the completeness of the solution, really it comes down to where you can locate a pump near to the stopcock, also these solutions will only increase the flow to 12lpm max.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/salamander-pumps-homebo...
https://www.screwfix.com/p/stuart-turner-flomate-b...
https://www.screwfix.com/p/grundfos-98562865-boost...
Been quoted around £1000 to mole in a new pipe, but this also involved lifting the kitchen floor.
You want to be to looking at Homeboost pumps.Salamander would be the cheapest solution, though favouring the Stuart Turner pumps for the completeness of the solution, really it comes down to where you can locate a pump near to the stopcock, also these solutions will only increase the flow to 12lpm max.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/salamander-pumps-homebo...
https://www.screwfix.com/p/stuart-turner-flomate-b...
https://www.screwfix.com/p/grundfos-98562865-boost...
Toilet Duck said:
The property is fed by a lead pipe from the main out in the street to the front porch where there is a stopcock that isolates the water to the entire property (ground floor/1st floor flats).
At the boundary of the property out in the street, the pressure is reportedly 2 bar with a flow of 25 litres/min. At the kitchen tap in the ground floor flat, the pressure is 1.5 bar with a flow of 8 litres/min. The report "suspects" that the old lead pipe from the main in the street up to the property is "not wide enough to give desired flow rate."
That is a fair ol' drop.At the boundary of the property out in the street, the pressure is reportedly 2 bar with a flow of 25 litres/min. At the kitchen tap in the ground floor flat, the pressure is 1.5 bar with a flow of 8 litres/min. The report "suspects" that the old lead pipe from the main in the street up to the property is "not wide enough to give desired flow rate."
Whose is the lead, if the main property stop valve is in the porch? It shouldn't be hard to measure the flow/pressure at the porch valve, which'll give you a definitive answer as to whether it's the lead or later.
One thing's for sure, the minute the L-word gets mentioned to the tenant, there's likely to be a fit of the vapours, so it might be worth a precautionary replacement - is it a long stretch?
When we had the kitchen at our old place redone, the old lead that came in from the stop valve in the street, under the garden, under the living room to the kitchen stop valve looked fine - but was simply impossible to deal with. Anywhere it was touched, it sprang a leak. We just shrugged and replaced the lot - at least it was under garden rather than paving, though.
I paid £400 for a new pipe to be 'moled' under the front garden, total pipe length was about 30m. This was done by an independent contractor. I did have the floor up in the front room at the time which made things easier.
I have to back off the stopcock to about a quarter now as the pressure is too high.
I have to back off the stopcock to about a quarter now as the pressure is too high.
Edited by megaphone on Saturday 13th October 12:32
dickymint said:
Not sure what you mean by a "booster pump" but i'm pretty sure you can't do it off the mains.
In my area (South Wales) the water board will replace lead pipes free of charge via some form of grant. HTH
Sorry, "home boost pumps" like what rfsteel linked to below your post. I hadn't heard of them before they were suggested in the report.In my area (South Wales) the water board will replace lead pipes free of charge via some form of grant. HTH
The area this property is in is served by Essex and Suffolk Water, and they won't help out with the bit of lead from the main to the house.
rfsteel said:
I've been looking into this recently, as I want to increase my flow from 8lpm, and too have a lead pipe from the meter to my property.
Been quoted around £1000 to mole in a new pipe, but this also involved lifting the kitchen floor.
You want to be to looking at Homeboost pumps.Salamander would be the cheapest solution, though favouring the Stuart Turner pumps for the completeness of the solution, really it comes down to where you can locate a pump near to the stopcock, also these solutions will only increase the flow to 12lpm max
Cheers, I'd looked at the screwfix offerings but don't know anyone who's actually used one. I suspect what's happening in my situation is that when the electric shower is being used, if someone in the upstairs flat puts the washing machine on/has a shower etc then that knocks the flow down and the shower downstairs trips on low flow. Been quoted around £1000 to mole in a new pipe, but this also involved lifting the kitchen floor.
You want to be to looking at Homeboost pumps.Salamander would be the cheapest solution, though favouring the Stuart Turner pumps for the completeness of the solution, really it comes down to where you can locate a pump near to the stopcock, also these solutions will only increase the flow to 12lpm max
I don't see how the pump can "pull" more water than the lead pipe feeding it can supply under it's own steam. Surely if it's flow is limited to 8l/min, "sucking" on it with a pump isn't going to overcome that bottleneck?
Also could I put the pump in the utility room where the feed splits so only the ground floor flat gets the benefit of the pump?
TooMany2cvs said:
That is a fair ol' drop.
Whose is the lead, if the main property stop valve is in the porch? It shouldn't be hard to measure the flow/pressure at the porch valve, which'll give you a definitive answer as to whether it's the lead or later.
One thing's for sure, the minute the L-word gets mentioned to the tenant, there's likely to be a fit of the vapours, so it might be worth a precautionary replacement - is it a long stretch?
The remaining lead bit between the water main in the street (boundary) and the porch at the front where it enters the property is the responsibility of the homeowner. Doesn't seem right to me but that's how it is.Whose is the lead, if the main property stop valve is in the porch? It shouldn't be hard to measure the flow/pressure at the porch valve, which'll give you a definitive answer as to whether it's the lead or later.
One thing's for sure, the minute the L-word gets mentioned to the tenant, there's likely to be a fit of the vapours, so it might be worth a precautionary replacement - is it a long stretch?
I estimate that the lead pipe run is maybe 8 metres max but not sure where in the street it terminates. If the tenant got funny about there being lead and that everyone is going to die etc then i believe the water supplier will come and take a water sample and see if the lead content is below the legal limit. They put phosphoric acid into the water treatment process anyway to counteract plumbsolvency so it's not really an issue.
megaphone said:
I paid £400 for a new pipe to be 'moled' under the front garden, total pipe length was about 30m. This was done by an independent contractor. I did have the floor up in the front room at the time which made things easier.
Can I ask whereabouts in the country are you? Are independent contractors allowed to just dig up the road/tap into water mains etc, or do they have to go through the water supplier first?Edited by Toilet Duck on Saturday 13th October 13:07
Toilet Duck said:
dickymint said:
Not sure what you mean by a "booster pump" but i'm pretty sure you can't do it off the mains.
In my area (South Wales) the water board will replace lead pipes free of charge via some form of grant. HTH
Sorry, "home boost pumps" like what rfsteel linked to below your post. I hadn't heard of them before they were suggested in the report.In my area (South Wales) the water board will replace lead pipes free of charge via some form of grant. HTH
The area this property is in is served by Essex and Suffolk Water, and they won't help out with the bit of lead from the main to the house.
rfsteel said:
I've been looking into this recently, as I want to increase my flow from 8lpm, and too have a lead pipe from the meter to my property.
Been quoted around £1000 to mole in a new pipe, but this also involved lifting the kitchen floor.
You want to be to looking at Homeboost pumps.Salamander would be the cheapest solution, though favouring the Stuart Turner pumps for the completeness of the solution, really it comes down to where you can locate a pump near to the stopcock, also these solutions will only increase the flow to 12lpm max
Cheers, I'd looked at the screwfix offerings but don't know anyone who's actually used one. I suspect what's happening in my situation is that when the electric shower is being used, if someone in the upstairs flat puts the washing machine on/has a shower etc then that knocks the flow down and the shower downstairs trips on low flow. Been quoted around £1000 to mole in a new pipe, but this also involved lifting the kitchen floor.
You want to be to looking at Homeboost pumps.Salamander would be the cheapest solution, though favouring the Stuart Turner pumps for the completeness of the solution, really it comes down to where you can locate a pump near to the stopcock, also these solutions will only increase the flow to 12lpm max
I don't see how the pump can "pull" more water than the lead pipe feeding it can supply under it's own steam. Surely if it's flow is limited to 8l/min, "sucking" on it with a pump isn't going to overcome that bottleneck?
Also could I put the pump in the utility room where the feed splits so only the ground floor flat gets the benefit of the pump?
TooMany2cvs said:
That is a fair ol' drop.
Whose is the lead, if the main property stop valve is in the porch? It shouldn't be hard to measure the flow/pressure at the porch valve, which'll give you a definitive answer as to whether it's the lead or later.
One thing's for sure, the minute the L-word gets mentioned to the tenant, there's likely to be a fit of the vapours, so it might be worth a precautionary replacement - is it a long stretch?
The remaining lead bit between the water main in the street (boundary) and the porch at the front where it enters the property is the responsibility of the homeowner. Doesn't seem right to me but that's how it is.Whose is the lead, if the main property stop valve is in the porch? It shouldn't be hard to measure the flow/pressure at the porch valve, which'll give you a definitive answer as to whether it's the lead or later.
One thing's for sure, the minute the L-word gets mentioned to the tenant, there's likely to be a fit of the vapours, so it might be worth a precautionary replacement - is it a long stretch?
I estimate that the lead pipe run is maybe 8 metres max but not sure where in the street it terminates. If the tenant got funny about there being lead and that everyone is going to die etc then i believe the water supplier will come and take a water sample and see if the lead content is below the legal limit. They put phosphoric acid into the water treatment process anyway to counteract plumbsolvency so it's not really an issue.
megaphone said:
I paid £400 for a new pipe to be 'moled' under the front garden, total pipe length was about 30m. This was done by an independent contractor. I did have the floor up in the front room at the time which made things easier.
Can I ask whereabouts in the country are you? Are independent contractors allowed to just dig up the road/tap into water mains etc, or do they have to go through the water supplier first?Edited by Toilet Duck on Saturday 13th October 13:07
Toilet Duck said:
If the tenant got funny about there being lead and that everyone is going to die etc then i believe the water supplier will come and take a water sample and see if the lead content is below the legal limit. They put phosphoric acid into the water treatment process anyway to counteract plumbsolvency so it's not really an issue.
Indeed - the tenant doesn't have any rational grounds to object to the L-word, but will that stop 'em flapping? A happy tenant is a long-term tenant.Toilet Duck said:
I don't see how the pump can "pull" more water than the lead pipe feeding it can supply under it's own steam. Surely if it's flow is limited to 8l/min, "sucking" on it with a pump isn't going to overcome that bottleneck?
Also could I put the pump in the utility room where the feed splits so only the ground floor flat gets the benefit of the pump?
From my investigation, sucking is what they do, hence the 12lpm/ 1.5bar limitations.Also could I put the pump in the utility room where the feed splits so only the ground floor flat gets the benefit of the pump?
Edited by Toilet Duck on Saturday 13th October 13:07
With the stuart warner pumps, they offer an additional charger pump to increase pressure, once you've boosted the flow;
http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/products/mainsboost...
or they can paired with a tank prior to the pump;
http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/products/mainsboost...
As for fitting locations, they can be plumbed from lead to copper, or copper to copper only, if you've still lead pipe leading from the utility room, you can't install there.
The other option, if your feeling brave is this solution;
https://www.showerpowerbooster.co.uk/product-categ...
Which benefit from easier fitting, but still works out to a similar price to known brands mentioned above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txlbACE19H4
The shower power booster is a complete scam - our place bought one to try out. It basically depends on smaller outlet holes in their shower head, so you feel like there is better pressure - but you are still getting pretty much the same amount of water. It's like showering in a mist, not a shower.
Feel free to sue me, Alan - your first testimony is from 5 years ago - you could have put ST, Grundfos etc. out of the booster business if your product actually worked...
Feel free to sue me, Alan - your first testimony is from 5 years ago - you could have put ST, Grundfos etc. out of the booster business if your product actually worked...
dickymint said:
Beats me how you can increase flow rate without increasing the pipe diameter or introducing a storage tank then pump it 
By increasing the dP from the road to the pump point through using a pump. Flow depends on change in pressure and pipe size, the pump increases the change in pressure. Think of it as sucking.I've had a couple of shower pumps in a previous house. The first one was fantastically loud so we were kind of pleased when it failed after a year (just outside warranty). We replaced it with a more expensive one which was quiet and gave our shower a monsoon.
What happened was when we installed a thermostatically-regulated shower tap, the thermostat constrained the flow just enough for the shower to be unusable. Before, just using a cheap mixer tap/shower head off the bath taps, it was all working happily which showed we had adequate flow but the thermostatically-regulated shower tap proved we didn't have an excess of pressure. The pump completely resolved our issues.
What happened was when we installed a thermostatically-regulated shower tap, the thermostat constrained the flow just enough for the shower to be unusable. Before, just using a cheap mixer tap/shower head off the bath taps, it was all working happily which showed we had adequate flow but the thermostatically-regulated shower tap proved we didn't have an excess of pressure. The pump completely resolved our issues.
Toilet Duck said:
dickymint said:
.
The contractors I used just got on with it. They did mention we where meant to seek permission to dig up the pavement however they said it would just cause delays and expense. Fortunately the main stop cock and water meter where close to my front wall, so only a foot square hole was required. They refilled and made good, all ok. I paid them cash and off they went. megaphone said:
I paid £400 for a new pipe to be 'moled' under the front garden, total pipe length was about 30m. This was done by an independent contractor. I did have the floor up in the front room at the time which made things easier.
Can I ask whereabouts in the country are you? Are independent contractors allowed to just dig up the road/tap into water mains etc, or do they have to go through the water supplier first?Edited by Toilet Duck on Saturday 13th October 13:07
They are based in Bedfordshire.
Just thought I'd provide a mini update in case anyone else has a similar issue.
I rang up Stuart Turner about their mains booster pumps. They CANNOT boost flow, only pressure, so aren't suitable for what I need. If you put a storage tank inline then, and only then, will it increase flow (until the tank empties).
For what that's going to cost plus the footprint that the storage vessel will take up, think I'm going to bite the bullet and fix the actual problem i.e. get a new pipe moled in and replace the lead section. Now the fun begins with the tradesman lottery trying to find someone who won't rip me off/f
k it up 
I rang up Stuart Turner about their mains booster pumps. They CANNOT boost flow, only pressure, so aren't suitable for what I need. If you put a storage tank inline then, and only then, will it increase flow (until the tank empties).
For what that's going to cost plus the footprint that the storage vessel will take up, think I'm going to bite the bullet and fix the actual problem i.e. get a new pipe moled in and replace the lead section. Now the fun begins with the tradesman lottery trying to find someone who won't rip me off/f
k it up Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff