Buying land to build a house
Discussion
blueg33 said:
The vendor that doesn't twig that the land has development potential is a rare animal indeed. The main point is to secure the site before it gets to the market
Some may twig there could be some value, but there are a lot of vendors (and indeed buyers) who don't have the vision, knowledge or risk appetite to do anything about it. The best sites are where there is some reasonable element of doubt as to being able to do anything with it. blueg33 said:
The vendor that doesn't twig that the land has development potential is a rare animal indeed.
In your end of the game, perhaps....you'd have to be very dim indeed not to recognise that sites of the size and locations you're interested in aren't being bought with development in mind (although the developer I used to work for owned some very large farms, that had been bought at agricultural value and were being tenanted as going concerns, while we undertook long-term promotion through Planning).When you're looking for a single plot, it's a different story.
Equus said:
blueg33 said:
The vendor that doesn't twig that the land has development potential is a rare animal indeed.
In your end of the game, perhaps....you'd have to be very dim indeed not to recognise that sites of the size and locations you're interested in aren't being bought with development in mind (although the developer I used to work for owned some very large farms, that had been bought at agricultural value and were being tenanted as going concerns, while we undertook long-term promotion through Planning).When you're looking for a single plot, it's a different story.
blueg33 said:
It certainly isn't a different story here in the Cotswolds, part of my brief when I started land buying was single upmarket plots (Berkeley Homes).
Well, as you know, I spent many years in the Cotswolds myself...And among those farms that my employer had bought as agricultural going concerns, at agricultural values, were large holdings around Tewkesbury, Hereford and elsewhere. In many cases, we had no intention of developing all the land, just that part of it that sat reasonably contiguous with an expanding settlement, leaving the rest of the farm in agricultural use. No different, in principle, to buying a house with a large garden and carving off a plot.
I assume that, working for Berkeley Homes, you weren't turning up with your wife and kids and buying the land in the name of Mr & Mrs Smith, in which case it would have been reasonably obvious what was going on, anyway?
DonkeyApple said:
blueg33 said:
It certainly isn't a different story here in the Cotswolds, part of my brief when I started land buying was single upmarket plots (Berkeley Homes).
You’re not doing that fancy build in Stow by any chance? I keep seeing an Evora there. Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
Fascinating thread, we have the dream of our next home being our forever home which means unless we find the ideal property we will be self building providing we can find what we need (reasonably set on what we need from the finished article, 3 Bed Bungalow, Garage, Parking and a sex dungeon, you know, the usual stuff), where we need it (tricky one yet to be determined, theoretically it can be anywhere as I have a job that doesn't require me to be in a fixed area and she can work anywhere) and at a price we can afford (this is the rub, we are a few years off so the search is far from beginning)
Read all this with great interest and have taken notes.
Equus et all, any of you thought about writing a book? Recently read, Self Build Simplified by Barry Sutcliffe, lots of good stuff in there but still feels like he leaves alot out as per reading in here. Anything else worth reading up on?
Read all this with great interest and have taken notes.
Equus et all, any of you thought about writing a book? Recently read, Self Build Simplified by Barry Sutcliffe, lots of good stuff in there but still feels like he leaves alot out as per reading in here. Anything else worth reading up on?
blueg33 said:
Not doing anything in Stow at the moment. I did Netherswell Manor in Stow, a conversion and some very tasty new builds (pics on Google)
Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
It is blue. I live in Bourton on the Hill so it’s probably yours I keep seeing. Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
blueg33 said:
Not doing anything in Stow at the moment. I did Netherswell Manor in Stow, a conversion and some very tasty new builds (pics on Google)
Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
I nearly purchased at Netherswell. That development was about 18 years ago or so now wasn’t it?Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
geeks said:
...Recently read, Self Build Simplified by Barry Sutcliffe, lots of good stuff in there but still feels like he leaves a lot out as per reading in here. Anything else worth reading up on?
That's probably because, as I said right at the beginning of this thread, there's no magic formula.Every situation is different. All you can hope to do is improvise from experience, and all you could achieve in a book is the basics, maybe supported by a series of anecdotes on what worked (or didn't work) in specific situations.
And if I used many of my favourite anecdotes, somebody would sue me.
garyhun said:
blueg33 said:
Not doing anything in Stow at the moment. I did Netherswell Manor in Stow, a conversion and some very tasty new builds (pics on Google)
Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
I nearly purchased at Netherswell. That development was about 18 years ago or so now wasn’t it?Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
That site wasn’t the easiest! Water supply comes from a spring.
DonkeyApple said:
blueg33 said:
Not doing anything in Stow at the moment. I did Netherswell Manor in Stow, a conversion and some very tasty new builds (pics on Google)
Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
It is blue. I live in Bourton on the Hill so it’s probably yours I keep seeing. Nowadays my guys are buying land in less salubrious places, but we are building for vulnerable adults, so its all social housing.
Is the Evora you see in blue? I drive through Stow regularly on the way to Kingham station. I live closeish, near Broadway.
. There’s a blue one and a white Evora I see about, most often around Stow. Equus said:
The Planning system is complicated, but the main things you need to recognise are that as a general rule:
1) Unless it's an 'allocated' site (ie. land that has been through a process of assessment where the Planning Authority has chosen it as an expansion to a settlement, in order to meet their target for housing numbers), land outside the recognised boundary of a settlement is regarded as 'open countryside' and with a few exceptions it will be very difficult to obtain Planning Permission to develop it.
2) Even if it's in a settlement, the settlement itself must be considered 'sustainable' before the LPA will support development. In Planning terms, that means it must have enough local facilities (shops, schools, healthcare, employment) for people to be able to live there without too much use of private transport (yes... I know. I don't agree with it, either, but them's the rules).
3) The major exception (there are many minor 'ifs' and 'buts') is if the Local Authority can't demonstrate a '5 year land supply'... basically showing a plan for the next 5 years of where and how they will deliver the number of new houses they have been assessed to require. If they haven't got an up-to-date plan for this, it's pretty much 'open season' on sites that would otherwise not be allowed by their housing policies (other Planning Policies remain intact). I can tell you that until recently, the neighbouring authority of Fenland District Council didn't have a 5 year land supply, and lots of development was approved because of this. A lot of the building work you are seeing in the locality may be a result of this. They do now have a 5 year land supply in place (you can read it here, if you really want to), so that gate has now been closed (but in any case, I'm assuming that your site falls within KL&WN District Council). If your site is viable in other respects, it may be possible to put it forward for assessment for the next round of land allocations, but at present KL&WN can demonstrate nearly 6 years' worth of housing land supply, so aren't exposed in that regard.
If you PM me the location and extent of the site, I may be able to tell you straight out whether you're wasting your time, or whether it has some potential. If the latter, your first step would be to obtain a Planning Viability Assessment, which will look more thoroughly at the site constraints, Local and National Planning Policy, and give more detailed advice on viability and how to proceed. This costs a £few hundred.
Edited to add: in respect of point 10 on blueg33's post, above, that can certainly apply to larger sites (six figure sums to get a site through Planning are far from unknown), but at the self-build end of the market we would usually steer you clear of any site requiring that amount of speculative investment at the Planning stage, for obvious reasons. Everything else he's said, as usual, is spot on.
Thank you very much for this. I happen to be up there at the weekend, so will find out who they fall under. Will an address and an idea of plot size be sufficient via PM or do you require anything else?1) Unless it's an 'allocated' site (ie. land that has been through a process of assessment where the Planning Authority has chosen it as an expansion to a settlement, in order to meet their target for housing numbers), land outside the recognised boundary of a settlement is regarded as 'open countryside' and with a few exceptions it will be very difficult to obtain Planning Permission to develop it.
2) Even if it's in a settlement, the settlement itself must be considered 'sustainable' before the LPA will support development. In Planning terms, that means it must have enough local facilities (shops, schools, healthcare, employment) for people to be able to live there without too much use of private transport (yes... I know. I don't agree with it, either, but them's the rules).
3) The major exception (there are many minor 'ifs' and 'buts') is if the Local Authority can't demonstrate a '5 year land supply'... basically showing a plan for the next 5 years of where and how they will deliver the number of new houses they have been assessed to require. If they haven't got an up-to-date plan for this, it's pretty much 'open season' on sites that would otherwise not be allowed by their housing policies (other Planning Policies remain intact). I can tell you that until recently, the neighbouring authority of Fenland District Council didn't have a 5 year land supply, and lots of development was approved because of this. A lot of the building work you are seeing in the locality may be a result of this. They do now have a 5 year land supply in place (you can read it here, if you really want to), so that gate has now been closed (but in any case, I'm assuming that your site falls within KL&WN District Council). If your site is viable in other respects, it may be possible to put it forward for assessment for the next round of land allocations, but at present KL&WN can demonstrate nearly 6 years' worth of housing land supply, so aren't exposed in that regard.
If you PM me the location and extent of the site, I may be able to tell you straight out whether you're wasting your time, or whether it has some potential. If the latter, your first step would be to obtain a Planning Viability Assessment, which will look more thoroughly at the site constraints, Local and National Planning Policy, and give more detailed advice on viability and how to proceed. This costs a £few hundred.
Edited to add: in respect of point 10 on blueg33's post, above, that can certainly apply to larger sites (six figure sums to get a site through Planning are far from unknown), but at the self-build end of the market we would usually steer you clear of any site requiring that amount of speculative investment at the Planning stage, for obvious reasons. Everything else he's said, as usual, is spot on.
JonChalk said:
For that budget, what about buying a pile of crap in a good location and demolishing it to start again.
Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
I would do this but they are harder to come by than you would imagine. I’m hoping to drop on a bungalow sat on a large parcel of land but can’t find much. Even the old bungalows that need renovating are £500-750k when sat on loads of land. Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
corradokid said:
Will an address and an idea of plot size be sufficient via PM or do you require anything else?
That'll do, to begin with.You appreciate that it will just be an initial indication - I can't afford either the time nor the charitable impulse to do full Planning viability assessments free of charge.
Equus said:
desolate said:
It's not desperate if you are prepared to do without a large part of the developers profit.
Some people just want a house that is "theirs"
Well, that's their decision, of course, but it effectively means that they are paying above the market rate to do so. And if they're more astute, they need not pay that penalty.Some people just want a house that is "theirs"
But it's a valid point: one of the questions that the OP needs to reflect on long and hard is why he wants to self-build.
It's not the easy option, and can end up costing you a lot more.
I think I just want a house that’s a bit different, and fits my needs. Ideally want something with character, and with a few outbuildings and nice views and big gardens. We are an outdoorsy family and love our large south facing garden. Our house was (almost) perfect when we moved in but since our first child has come along with more planned in future, it’s not going to be big enough. We have good sized front and rear gardens, a garage and importantly, no one overlooking us. We want the same thing but with a bigger internal space (4bed + office as opposed to 3 bed with no office). Would like a triple garage or more. And don’t want to be overlooked by loads of other houses.
I’m not desperate to self build but it does seem the only way we will get the house we want (appreciate there will be compromises regardless of which route we take).
ben5575 said:
desolate said:
It's not desperate if you are prepared to do without a large part of the developers profit.
Some people just want a house that is "theirs"
I agree with this. You only have to read any of the property threads on here to see the constant dithering and obsession over values as people's lives continue to tick by, unhappy with their circumstances. It really is a weird obsession in this country.Some people just want a house that is "theirs"
Profit on a self build is a bonus. If it's your raison d'etre, then you're a developer. As above, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to make some profit if you're clever about it (and you should be clever about it), but then I suppose I could make a profit on a car if I was clever about it and never actually enjoyed or drove the thing. What's wrong with 'losing' (some might say spending or even investing...) £200k or whatever to build and live in the house of your family's dreams for the rest of your life? Perspective.
blueg33 said:
A whole thread on buying land, and i haven't commented yet, I must be busy.
I know the thread has drifted more towards the build but back to land finding:
1. Find it yourself, don't rely on agents
2. Planning registers, google maps and land registry are your main tools
3. Work out where you want to be, get in the car go there, get out of the car wear out shoe leather, knock on doors
4. Be prepared, its never as simple as it looks
5. First time doing this, 100th time doing this - you WILL get the costs wrong have a contingency
6. Always use an option or a contract conditional on planning
7. Always make sure you can get drainage and services to the site and you know how much it will cost
8. Try and avoid the need for foul water pumping and always avoid storm water pumping
9. For planning USE A PLANNING CONSULTANT, I cant say that loudly enough, don't use an architect, don't use a CAD technician, don't use your local flower seller USE A PLANNING CONSULTANT.
10. Be prepared to spend several tens of £k's to get a site to planning, it may cost less but it may not.
11. Do market research, what will the final property be worth, try not to spend more than that!
12. Everyone is development and especially land owners are motivated by greed - remember this in all negotiations
Small fact - Frogmore Estates are one of the UK's largest developers/land owners, they started when the CEO rode to work on the top deck on a bus and realised he could see small plots of land with garages on etc behind rows of houses. he knocked on door until he found the owner, he entered conditional contracts. He is now quite wealthy.
Great post thank you so much. I know the thread has drifted more towards the build but back to land finding:
1. Find it yourself, don't rely on agents
2. Planning registers, google maps and land registry are your main tools
3. Work out where you want to be, get in the car go there, get out of the car wear out shoe leather, knock on doors
4. Be prepared, its never as simple as it looks
5. First time doing this, 100th time doing this - you WILL get the costs wrong have a contingency
6. Always use an option or a contract conditional on planning
7. Always make sure you can get drainage and services to the site and you know how much it will cost
8. Try and avoid the need for foul water pumping and always avoid storm water pumping
9. For planning USE A PLANNING CONSULTANT, I cant say that loudly enough, don't use an architect, don't use a CAD technician, don't use your local flower seller USE A PLANNING CONSULTANT.
10. Be prepared to spend several tens of £k's to get a site to planning, it may cost less but it may not.
11. Do market research, what will the final property be worth, try not to spend more than that!
12. Everyone is development and especially land owners are motivated by greed - remember this in all negotiations
Small fact - Frogmore Estates are one of the UK's largest developers/land owners, they started when the CEO rode to work on the top deck on a bus and realised he could see small plots of land with garages on etc behind rows of houses. he knocked on door until he found the owner, he entered conditional contracts. He is now quite wealthy.
I love watching grand designs but hate to see people run out of money all the time. We are in a fortunate position finance wise it’s just finding the land that’s hard.
There’s obviously a lot of land that’s empty near us in Yorkshire (close to A1/M62) and we’ve drove round and used google maps. But what exactly are we looking for? Even if I could knock on a land owners door how do I know which parcels of land are more likely to gain PP?
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