Buying land to build a house
Discussion
JapanRed said:
Great post thank you so much.
I love watching grand designs but hate to see people run out of money all the time. We are in a fortunate position finance wise it’s just finding the land that’s hard.
There’s obviously a lot of land that’s empty near us in Yorkshire (close to A1/M62) and we’ve drove round and used google maps. But what exactly are we looking for? Even if I could knock on a land owners door how do I know which parcels of land are more likely to gain PP?
Leg work and research - if you are looking for a greenbelt type property then it's massively difficult, and expensive in terms of time and money.I love watching grand designs but hate to see people run out of money all the time. We are in a fortunate position finance wise it’s just finding the land that’s hard.
There’s obviously a lot of land that’s empty near us in Yorkshire (close to A1/M62) and we’ve drove round and used google maps. But what exactly are we looking for? Even if I could knock on a land owners door how do I know which parcels of land are more likely to gain PP?
Is it a grand design, house in a field type project you are looking for?
edit: just seen the "not overlooked" part. Very tricky. I'd engage with a planning consultant now and spend a few quid on a proper meeting as they will be able to go into detail and give you a lot of background knowledge to help you with a search
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 18th October 14:32
JapanRed said:
... and importantly, no one overlooking us.
That, in itself, is going to make life difficult.The Planning system is fundamentally set against isolated dwellings (which by definition will almost always be in what the Planners consider to be open countryside).
The only exceptions are Paragraph 79, a replacement dwelling (and then, depending on the LPA, there might be limits on the size of the new dwelling), or a Class Q conversion.
Class Q probably won't help you if your needs are so specific, so you're very much being led toward either a replacement dwelling or a Para 79.
I've got a self-build client near Woodhall Spa who has just commenced construction on a house that would probably meet your needs perfectly (though it's probably a lot bigger than you would want, at 5 beds, about 5,200ft2 floor area plus garages and stables), who has gone down the replacement dwelling route. In that case, the Planner didn't flinch at our making it more than treble the size of the existing house, despite the LPA having a policy of max. 15% increase, IIRC.
What is your total budget (not just for land)?
You could get your home office and triple garage in one fell swoop by buying a 4 bed that otherwise meets your requirements and building a triple garage with room-in-roof above, of course.
JapanRed said:
JonChalk said:
For that budget, what about buying a pile of crap in a good location and demolishing it to start again.
Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
I would do this but they are harder to come by than you would imagine. I’m hoping to drop on a bungalow sat on a large parcel of land but can’t find much. Even the old bungalows that need renovating are £500-750k when sat on loads of land. Less risky for PP (though not guaranteed) as a dwelling already existed.
DonkeyApple said:
blueg33 said:
Hmm, I don’t go that way, I go via Ford. Tends to be 5.15am and around 6pm. My car is bright Daytona blue with black wheels.
And I’m not awake at that uncivilised hour! 
. There’s a blue one and a white Evora I see about, most often around Stow. 
Equus said:
That'll do, to begin with.
You appreciate that it will just be an initial indication - I can't afford either the time nor the charitable impulse to do full Planning viability assessments free of charge.
Of course, that wouldn’t be expected. At this juncture I’m just trying to find out if it’s possibly viable or not. They baulked at paying out any money they were not sure they would get back previously, but advancing years and health dictates they may need to consider moving sooner rather than later. Thanks once again. You appreciate that it will just be an initial indication - I can't afford either the time nor the charitable impulse to do full Planning viability assessments free of charge.
blueg33 said:
DonkeyApple said:
blueg33 said:
Hmm, I don’t go that way, I go via Ford. Tends to be 5.15am and around 6pm. My car is bright Daytona blue with black wheels.
And I’m not awake at that uncivilised hour! . There’s a blue one and a white Evora I see about, most often around Stow. 
desolate said:
JapanRed said:
Great post thank you so much.
I love watching grand designs but hate to see people run out of money all the time. We are in a fortunate position finance wise it’s just finding the land that’s hard.
There’s obviously a lot of land that’s empty near us in Yorkshire (close to A1/M62) and we’ve drove round and used google maps. But what exactly are we looking for? Even if I could knock on a land owners door how do I know which parcels of land are more likely to gain PP?
Leg work and research - if you are looking for a greenbelt type property then it's massively difficult, and expensive in terms of time and money.I love watching grand designs but hate to see people run out of money all the time. We are in a fortunate position finance wise it’s just finding the land that’s hard.
There’s obviously a lot of land that’s empty near us in Yorkshire (close to A1/M62) and we’ve drove round and used google maps. But what exactly are we looking for? Even if I could knock on a land owners door how do I know which parcels of land are more likely to gain PP?
Is it a grand design, house in a field type project you are looking for?
edit: just seen the "not overlooked" part. Very tricky. I'd engage with a planning consultant now and spend a few quid on a proper meeting as they will be able to go into detail and give you a lot of background knowledge to help you with a search
Edited by desolate on Thursday 18th October 14:32
Equus said:
JapanRed said:
... and importantly, no one overlooking us.
That, in itself, is going to make life difficult.The Planning system is fundamentally set against isolated dwellings (which by definition will almost always be in what the Planners consider to be open countryside).
The only exceptions are Paragraph 79, a replacement dwelling (and then, depending on the LPA, there might be limits on the size of the new dwelling), or a Class Q conversion.
Class Q probably won't help you if your needs are so specific, so you're very much being led toward either a replacement dwelling or a Para 79.
I've got a self-build client near Woodhall Spa who has just commenced construction on a house that would probably meet your needs perfectly (though it's probably a lot bigger than you would want, at 5 beds, about 5,200ft2 floor area plus garages and stables), who has gone down the replacement dwelling route. In that case, the Planner didn't flinch at our making it more than treble the size of the existing house, despite the LPA having a policy of max. 15% increase, IIRC.
What is your total budget (not just for land)?
You could get your home office and triple garage in one fell swoop by buying a 4 bed that otherwise meets your requirements and building a triple garage with room-in-roof above, of course.
Ideally wanted to spend £750k total but if we bought the land and then built over a period of 1-2 years we could go higher to maybe £900k or £1M. Is this a reasonable budget? It seems a lot to me but appreciate you might turn round and say “no not a chance unless you’ve got £1M+“.
What is your job Equus? I wouldn’t mind paying for some decent advice.
One more question; if we bought a house at £400k, how much would it typically cost to knock down and remove all rubble? I’m thinking an average sized 3-4 bed detached house.
Japan - you could demolish and remove a house for around £10,000.
Not trying to be funny but you really should be doing a lot of background reading on all this. The more you know, the more you can question the right people about the right things
Go on amazon and purchase “The Housebuilder’s Bible” - you won’t regret it.
Not trying to be funny but you really should be doing a lot of background reading on all this. The more you know, the more you can question the right people about the right things
Go on amazon and purchase “The Housebuilder’s Bible” - you won’t regret it.
Edge of village location is a mixed blessing... in some respects it can make Planning easier (if you can justify that it's a natural extension to the development boundary), in other respects it doesn't make much difference (as I mentioned above, LPA's won't generally support development in small 'unsustainable' settlements any more than they will in open countryside) and in certain circumstances it can actually make things more difficult (it's a bizarre use of semantics, but I've seen it successfully argued that the wording of Para 55/79 makes clear that it applies to isolated dwellings in open countryside, and that a lack of sufficient isolation is actually grounds for refusal!).
Overall budget is important because, as you might have gathered from discussion above, the land for a Para 55/79 approach can be dirt cheap (at agricultural land values, or less), but the design and construction costs usually aren't. £750K-£900K is reasonable, though. The house I mentioned above is being done with a build budget of £475K (which worries me a lot), but that excludes land and stables/garage block, and the client is very hands-on and doing a lot of the actual construction himself.
Demolitions costs can vary enormously, depending on all sorts of factors, but are likely to be a relatively trivial cost in terms of your overall project budget. Allow maybe £10K as an initial budget figure.
My job: I am Director of a combined planning and architectural design consultancy. As it happens, I'm from pretty close to where you're intending to build, originally (I was born and raised in Rothwell, South of Leeds), and go back fairly regularly to see friends and family, so give me a shout if you're serious about the project.
Overall budget is important because, as you might have gathered from discussion above, the land for a Para 55/79 approach can be dirt cheap (at agricultural land values, or less), but the design and construction costs usually aren't. £750K-£900K is reasonable, though. The house I mentioned above is being done with a build budget of £475K (which worries me a lot), but that excludes land and stables/garage block, and the client is very hands-on and doing a lot of the actual construction himself.
Demolitions costs can vary enormously, depending on all sorts of factors, but are likely to be a relatively trivial cost in terms of your overall project budget. Allow maybe £10K as an initial budget figure.
My job: I am Director of a combined planning and architectural design consultancy. As it happens, I'm from pretty close to where you're intending to build, originally (I was born and raised in Rothwell, South of Leeds), and go back fairly regularly to see friends and family, so give me a shout if you're serious about the project.
JapanRed said:
Thanks Desolate. Just googled “planning consultant” and got loads of hits. Does it have to be one close to me? Do you know if any that come recommended in the Leeds area? How do I choose a planning consultant?
Equus is better placed to answer than me as he is a planning consultant, I believe. Personally, I would think you are better with someone who has experience of your local planning system.
I used an architect to get something in the greenbelt but he was unusual and brilliant (and expensive)
I am looking at something now and have met a local consultant who comes recommended but I wasn't impressed at the first meeting so I am pondering what to do next.
Buy a mountain bike !! I took up such about 5yrs ago, just for exercise, riding across the countryside. It’s amazing how much more you see this way compared to wizing past in the car. Places are accessible much more easily. I've seen, in the last 5yrs, quite a few opportunities for house development that would never have to come to light other than me seeing them. A few that I'd thought had possibilities actually came to fruition. The other option, is the 'buy something, and replace it'. Not liked much by developers because, for them, no profit. But as you are seeking a HOME, not a bloody investment, it's a viable proposition.
desolate said:
Equus is better placed to answer than me as he is a planning consultant, I believe.
I'm actually the Architectural Director (albeit I have unusual knowledge and experience of the Planning system, for someone whose job is to draw pretty pictures), but we have Chartered Planners on our strength, and my practice is a chartered Planning Consultancy.robinessex said:
Agree, a planning expert is worth every penny. I've knowledge of such a contentious planning application, and he absolutely ran rings around the local planning office.
PS. My solicitor once told me, if you want to be next to God, be a planning officer!!
Our Planning Director amuses the hell out of me, at times. 90% of the time, she's quiet, deferential and almost comes across as lacking in confidence. Put her in a Planning meeting and it's like throwing a switch: I've seen her firmly and methodically reduce aggressive LPA Planning Officers to mumbling wrecks.PS. My solicitor once told me, if you want to be next to God, be a planning officer!!
I do delight in doing the same thing myself, on occasion (especially on domestic applications, where they're not expecting the architectural agent to have much of a clue about Planning). The God-like authority is something of a veneer... it's a bit like being a Police Officer - their whole control of the situation relies upon you believing that they have the power, whereas in reality they're hide-bound by so many rules that the opposite is often true.
As Equus, blueg33 and others have said, for this sort of exercise the OP should hire a chartered planning consultant (ie one who’s a qualified planner and RTPI accredited). Don’t use an architect at this stage as it’s not their forte (unless they’re a chartered planner too, with the emphasis on chartered, not just one who says they’re a planning consultant).
However, like all professions and trades there’s good and not so good chartered planning consultants, so word of mouth is often a good yardstick rather than fancy practitioners’ websites. That said, from his posts on PH Equus knows his stuff and operates in a multi-disciplinary practice which brings with it additional benefits.
The use of a good planning consultant can pay dividends in the long term and represent only a small part of an overall scheme.
However, like all professions and trades there’s good and not so good chartered planning consultants, so word of mouth is often a good yardstick rather than fancy practitioners’ websites. That said, from his posts on PH Equus knows his stuff and operates in a multi-disciplinary practice which brings with it additional benefits.
The use of a good planning consultant can pay dividends in the long term and represent only a small part of an overall scheme.
Escort3500 said:
As Equus, blueg33 and others have said, for this sort of exercise the OP should hire a chartered planning consultant (ie one who’s a qualified planner and RTPI accredited). Don’t use an architect at this stage as it’s not their forte (unless they’re a chartered planner too, with the emphasis on chartered, not just one who says they’re a planning consultant).
However, like all professions and trades there’s good and not so good chartered planning consultants, so word of mouth is often a good yardstick rather than fancy practitioners’ websites. That said, from his posts on PH Equus knows his stuff and operates in a multi-disciplinary practice which brings with it additional benefits.
The use of a good planning consultant can pay dividends in the long term and represent only a small part of an overall scheme.
I have worked with Equus on a professional basis (coincidence, as I didn't know he was on PH). I can vouch for him. Between us we managed to get a resi consent on a sports ground in the Cotswolds. However, like all professions and trades there’s good and not so good chartered planning consultants, so word of mouth is often a good yardstick rather than fancy practitioners’ websites. That said, from his posts on PH Equus knows his stuff and operates in a multi-disciplinary practice which brings with it additional benefits.
The use of a good planning consultant can pay dividends in the long term and represent only a small part of an overall scheme.
Equus said:
...whereas in reality they're hide-bound by so many rules that the opposite is often true.
This is so true. I used to work in the public sector in a previous life, dealing at Director/Head of Service level and DC Officers didn't even register on the radar save for walking past their office/cupboard on the way to the gents. They simply got told what to do.I suppose this partly explains why they feel obliged to take it out on the applicants!
That said I do have a lot of sympathy for them; their workload is ridiculous.
Equus - you're an architect?? I didn't expect that!
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