Anyone Restoring or Restored a Historic Building?
Discussion
The reason I ask is I'm doing my final project for my masters on how the restrictions imposed by Histric England affect the restoration of damaged or derelict buildings.
I'm looking for positive and negative experiences. The contacts I have haven't been all that good at replying!
Thanks, Bob
I'm looking for positive and negative experiences. The contacts I have haven't been all that good at replying!
Thanks, Bob
Yes, I'm currently working on at least a couple of projects that would be relevant to you, I think, and am about to start work on another (I have a meeting with the Conservation Officer tomorrow morning... albeit that one is in Wales, so it's Cadw rather than Historic England who have an influence).
I need to be conscious of client confidentiality, but what do you want to know?
Bottom line is that they haven't been a particular problem to us.
I need to be conscious of client confidentiality, but what do you want to know?
Bottom line is that they haven't been a particular problem to us.
BigGingerBob said:
To put it simply, whether they care a help or a hindrance. Do you mind if I send you a pm after work?
Sure, send me a PM... I probably won't get chance to respond to it until Sunday, though, due to the aforementioned meeting in Wales... I'll be heading off across there later this afternoon.Not sure how helpful my response will be, though: I'm pretty neutral about the whole process. They've been interested in the things you'd expect them to be interested in, and have been neither a big help, nor a major hindrance.
I completed a grade2 * cottage last year in suffolk.
hateful experience. delayed the build by 8 months dealing with conservation officers from suffolk coastal and HE officer who were collectively numb nuts. the conservation officer's knowledge and understanding of old buildings was shocking and the HE officer was away with the fairies.
never again - so much so that the other g2 'to-do' project in the portfolio I sold shortly afterwards for a 20k hit as I wasn't prepared for the time and energy it would undoubtedly take getting permission for things like knocking down the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom - also inadvertently listed.....
hateful experience. delayed the build by 8 months dealing with conservation officers from suffolk coastal and HE officer who were collectively numb nuts. the conservation officer's knowledge and understanding of old buildings was shocking and the HE officer was away with the fairies.
never again - so much so that the other g2 'to-do' project in the portfolio I sold shortly afterwards for a 20k hit as I wasn't prepared for the time and energy it would undoubtedly take getting permission for things like knocking down the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom - also inadvertently listed.....
Rangeroverover said:
I did a Grade ll castle and a scheduled national monument...........my main gripe, they have no concern for the financial obligations involved for the owner
Devil's advocate:The flip side of that argument, of course, is that many Conservation Officers or HE will tell you that many purchasers of Listed Buildings are unrealistic about the costs of maintaining or converting such properties to an appropriate standard.
It has been listed (or Scheduled) for a reason - to protect it as a national heritage asset - and it should be obvious that there are unusual costs attendant upon that. You don't go out and buy a vintage Cricklewood Bentley and expect to maintain it at Volkswagen Golf prices, even without a statutory body looking over your shoulder to make sure that you do it correctly?
kurt535 said:
the conservation officer's knowledge and understanding of old buildings was shocking and the HE officer was away with the fairies.
...I wasn't prepared for the time and energy it would undoubtedly take getting permission for things like knocking down the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom - also inadvertently listed...
Again - Devils Advocate - but isn't there another side to this, too?...I wasn't prepared for the time and energy it would undoubtedly take getting permission for things like knocking down the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom - also inadvertently listed...
It's a very basic, well understood fact to anyone remotely connected to the field that a Listing covers every part of the building (the rules are more complicated, but it can cover much of what's within the Curtilage of the property also). To them, it would have been perfectly reasonable to expect that you should have known that the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom was automatically covered by the Listing (not 'inadvertently listed' as if by some sort of accident), so I can imagine that many Conservation Officers and HE Officers hold similar views on many listed building owners to those you entertain for them!
Isn't it often a matter of mutual understanding?
I hope that the OP is balancing and qualifying the feedback by seeking the views of those on both 'sides' of the process?
Perhaps it should be made a mandatory part of the purchase process, on any listed property, to properly educate the purchaser on the obligations and expectations that go along with it - it seems that much of the negativity around the process is associated with this?
Much of the opposition does come with cost it seems. I've contacted Historic England themselves and conservation officers, the project needs to be objective so I'm trying g to get both sides. I just need more anecdotal evidence.
As a for instance, on one restoration after a fire, the builders were forced to keep a burned beam in place because it was part of the 'story' of the building. The beam was a charred mess that was going to be hidden behind a steel frame and ceilings, walls, etc
As a for instance, on one restoration after a fire, the builders were forced to keep a burned beam in place because it was part of the 'story' of the building. The beam was a charred mess that was going to be hidden behind a steel frame and ceilings, walls, etc
Well, ask me after the meeting tomorrow! 
That one is on the prospective conversion of a parish church (parts of which date to the 12th Century, with a 15th Century tower) into a domestic dwelling.
I'm confidently expecting the Conservation Officer to want features like the font, pulpit, reredos and various internal monuments to be retained in-situ as part of the 'story' of the building, but whether my clients will see that as being reasonable to their plans is another question!
I can understand that if a fire was a pivotal moment in the history of the building, it might be seen as desirable to preserve any remaining clear evidence of that event, even if it was structurally redundant and hidden behind later material.
That one is on the prospective conversion of a parish church (parts of which date to the 12th Century, with a 15th Century tower) into a domestic dwelling.
I'm confidently expecting the Conservation Officer to want features like the font, pulpit, reredos and various internal monuments to be retained in-situ as part of the 'story' of the building, but whether my clients will see that as being reasonable to their plans is another question!
I can understand that if a fire was a pivotal moment in the history of the building, it might be seen as desirable to preserve any remaining clear evidence of that event, even if it was structurally redundant and hidden behind later material.
BigGingerBob said:
I just need more anecdotal evidence.
My favorite Historic England anecdote (this is going to be a long one, so skip by it if you can't be bothered, and please don't clog up the thread by quoting it in full, anyone):Residential development in a suburb of of a certain small city, which included a SAM in the form of a moated island upon which was once built a fortified medieval manor house. Meeting with the LPA and HE, to decide best treatment and management of the SAM.
The meeting ran something like this:
HE: How are you going to keep down the vegetation on the island, to stop brambles and self-seeding trees taking over?
Me: We thought we'd put a management plan in place where we send a man over in a punt, twice a year, to strimmer it down.
HE. Nonononono... you can't do that. The best way is natural grazing by sheep.
Me: In the middle of a residential area, in suburban ____!? And the island isn't big enough to sustain a permanent population. How do we get them them there, and how do we take care of their welfare?
HE: You'll have to bring them in by lorry from a local farm, and the farmer can be tasked with looking after them.
Me: OooooKkkkk. And how do we get them onto the island? [across a 30 foot wide, water-filled moat]
HE: On the punt?
Me: You want us to ferry a dozen sheep, one at a time, onto an island, using a small punt, several times a year?
Planning Officer: I guess you'll have to build a bridge, then?
<< brief pause to resuscitate our Land Manager, who had gone into cardiac arrest at the thought of the cost>>
HE: Yes, that should be ok.
Me, reluctantly: OK. Where then, here? [indicating on plan] We'll need to build abutments here and here, then, and drop a timber deck across.
HE: Oh, no - you can't build any permanent structure on the island side. In fact nothing that permanently touches it. Maybe some sort of cantilevered drawbridge?
<<pause to remove the Land Manager from the room and settle him in a darkened room with a glass of water, with promises that under no circumstances would we agree to any such thing>>
Me: Well, that rules out a bridge then, doesn't it?
HE: Well... perhaps you could do something temporary?
ME: Such as? Bearing in mind it will need to be positioned then removed several times a year, to rotate sheep on and off the island?
HE: Well, perhaps you could do an inflatable one... you know a bit like a bouncy castle.
At this point, very unprofessionally, I burst out laughing. Then the mental picture, with baaaing sound effects, of a dozen sheep leaping and bouncing with gay abandon across a big yellow inflatable bouncy bridge took hold, and I descended into a full-blown giggling fit, with tears, which it took me several minutes to recover from.
Planning Officer: Perhaps we could come back to this one?
I later circulated a sketch by email, saying that I thought I'd come up with a better idea than the inflatable bouncy bridge (censored to protect reputations):
The Historic England Officer, presumably never having come across the Whoosh Parrot (this being the relatively early days of the internet), emailed back to say that, yes, that should be workable, and she would agree to it if we could come up with removable anchor weights instead of permanent concrete blocks.
We sent a man on with a strimmer, twice a year...
Equus said:
Rangeroverover said:
I did a Grade ll castle and a scheduled national monument...........my main gripe, they have no concern for the financial obligations involved for the owner
Devil's advocate:The flip side of that argument, of course, is that many Conservation Officers or HE will tell you that many purchasers of Listed Buildings are unrealistic about the costs of maintaining or converting such properties to an appropriate standard.
It has been listed (or Scheduled) for a reason - to protect it as a national heritage asset - and it should be obvious that there are unusual costs attendant upon that. You don't go out and buy a vintage Cricklewood Bentley and expect to maintain it at Volkswagen Golf prices, even without a statutory body looking over your shoulder to make sure that you do it correctly?
kurt535 said:
the conservation officer's knowledge and understanding of old buildings was shocking and the HE officer was away with the fairies.
...I wasn't prepared for the time and energy it would undoubtedly take getting permission for things like knocking down the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom - also inadvertently listed...
Again - Devils Advocate - but isn't there another side to this, too?...I wasn't prepared for the time and energy it would undoubtedly take getting permission for things like knocking down the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom - also inadvertently listed...
It's a very basic, well understood fact to anyone remotely connected to the field that a Listing covers every part of the building (the rules are more complicated, but it can cover much of what's within the Curtilage of the property also). To them, it would have been perfectly reasonable to expect that you should have known that the 1970's attached ground floor bathroom was automatically covered by the Listing (not 'inadvertently listed' as if by some sort of accident), so I can imagine that many Conservation Officers and HE Officers hold similar views on many listed building owners to those you entertain for them!
Isn't it often a matter of mutual understanding?
I hope that the OP is balancing and qualifying the feedback by seeking the views of those on both 'sides' of the process?
Perhaps it should be made a mandatory part of the purchase process, on any listed property, to properly educate the purchaser on the obligations and expectations that go along with it - it seems that much of the negativity around the process is associated with this?
Grade 2 listed limestone farmhouse built in the first quarter of the 1800s,
Im not sure what the technical term is for knackered limestone but anyway our house needed serious work. The heritage people said we could use only limestone from the quarry that the house came from originally. Being one of only a handful of this property type left in the village I couldn't pursuade any one to part with an outbuilding or wall.
After much research the quarry, or site of the quarry was found but was long closed, the land owner was good though and allowed stone to be taken (at a price) and all was good, bloody expensive though on what is technically a two bedroom cottage. I doubt Id get any more, NFU wanted the house professionally valuing for a rebuild and we ended up agreeing on a price of double the market value.
Im not sure what the technical term is for knackered limestone but anyway our house needed serious work. The heritage people said we could use only limestone from the quarry that the house came from originally. Being one of only a handful of this property type left in the village I couldn't pursuade any one to part with an outbuilding or wall.
After much research the quarry, or site of the quarry was found but was long closed, the land owner was good though and allowed stone to be taken (at a price) and all was good, bloody expensive though on what is technically a two bedroom cottage. I doubt Id get any more, NFU wanted the house professionally valuing for a rebuild and we ended up agreeing on a price of double the market value.
kurt535 said:
In my case, I've been in and around property for about 25 years.
Then you should have known that the Listing applies to the whole property, not excluding that 1970's extension. 
kurt535 said:
There is not consistency across the CC's planning and conservation officers. One CC sanctioned replacement bespoke wood replacement double glazing, this lot wouldn't.
Whilst I agree that building conservation is perhaps less consistent, and more subject to the personal views of the individual Conservation Officer, than planning generally, you do need to recognise that every single Listed Building is different. The glazing of one might be absolutely critical to the buildings character and importance (a friend of mine lives in a farm that still has some of the original Elizabethan glass in some of its windows - which is incredibly rare - and perhaps the most important thing about the whole building), whereas with another it might not matter at all.Have you ever considered just how difficult it is for the Conservation Officers to try to make consistent judgements in such circumstances? Do you think that you could do a better job?
It's very difficult to assess such inconsistencies without a very detailed understanding and comparison of the buildings involved.
ETA: Perhaps, in the context of this thread, the fact that there can be both an LPA Conservation Officer and a Historic England Officer involved in the process offers useful checks and balances?
Edited by Equus on Thursday 15th November 20:17
Are you interested in dealings directly with Historic England only, which would restrict it to GII* and GI listed buildings only, or are you interested in dealings with district council conservation officers on GII listed buildings as well? I have had plenty of positive and pragmatic help as well as the odd obstacle with restoration works on our GII listed house, parts of which were in a pretty awful state and uninhabitable when we first moved in. Let me know if you'd be interested and I'd be glad to help.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people buy a listed property without the necessary research, then whinge when they come up against the (necessarily) restrictive planning regime that is there to stop the building’s raison d’etre for listing being lost with inappropriate alterations and/or additions.
QuickQuack said:
Are you interested in dealings directly with Historic England only, which would restrict it to GII* and GI listed buildings only, or are you interested in dealings with district council conservation officers on GII listed buildings as well? I have had plenty of positive and pragmatic help as well as the odd obstacle with restoration works on our GII listed house, parts of which were in a pretty awful state and uninhabitable when we first moved in. Let me know if you'd be interested and I'd be glad to help.
I would love to hear about it. I have sent you an email.Bob
Equus said:
My favorite Historic England anecdote (this is going to be a long one, so skip by it if you can't be bothered, and please don't clog up the thread by quoting it in full, anyone):
Residential development in a suburb of of a certain small city, which included a SAM in the form of a moated island upon which was once built a fortified medieval manor house. Meeting with the LPA and HE, to decide best treatment and management of the SAM.
The meeting ran something like this:
HE: How are you going to keep down the vegetation on the island, to stop brambles and self-seeding trees taking over?
Me: We thought we'd put a management plan in place where we send a man over in a punt, twice a year, to strimmer it down.
HE. Nonononono... you can't do that. The best way is natural grazing by sheep.
Me: In the middle of a residential area, in suburban ____!? And the island isn't big enough to sustain a permanent population. How do we get them them there, and how do we take care of their welfare?
HE: You'll have to bring them in by lorry from a local farm, and the farmer can be tasked with looking after them.
Me: OooooKkkkk. And how do we get them onto the island? [across a 30 foot wide, water-filled moat]
HE: On the punt?
Me: You want us to ferry a dozen sheep, one at a time, onto an island, using a small punt, several times a year?
Planning Officer: I guess you'll have to build a bridge, then?
<< brief pause to resuscitate our Land Manager, who had gone into cardiac arrest at the thought of the cost>>
HE: Yes, that should be ok.
Me, reluctantly: OK. Where then, here? [indicating on plan] We'll need to build abutments here and here, then, and drop a timber deck across.
HE: Oh, no - you can't build any permanent structure on the island side. In fact nothing that permanently touches it. Maybe some sort of cantilevered drawbridge?
<<pause to remove the Land Manager from the room and settle him in a darkened room with a glass of water, with promises that under no circumstances would we agree to any such thing>>
Me: Well, that rules out a bridge then, doesn't it?
HE: Well... perhaps you could do something temporary?
ME: Such as? Bearing in mind it will need to be positioned then removed several times a year, to rotate sheep on and off the island?
HE: Well, perhaps you could do an inflatable one... you know a bit like a bouncy castle.
At this point, very unprofessionally, I burst out laughing. Then the mental picture, with baaaing sound effects, of a dozen sheep leaping and bouncing with gay abandon across a big yellow inflatable bouncy bridge took hold, and I descended into a full-blown giggling fit, with tears, which it took me several minutes to recover from.
Planning Officer: Perhaps we could come back to this one?
I later circulated a sketch by email, saying that I thought I'd come up with a better idea than the inflatable bouncy bridge (censored to protect reputations):
The Historic England Officer, presumably never having come across the Whoosh Parrot (this being the relatively early days of the internet), emailed back to say that, yes, that should be workable, and she would agree to it if we could come up with removable anchor weights instead of permanent concrete blocks.
We sent a man on with a strimmer, twice a year...
Enjoyed that a lot, Residential development in a suburb of of a certain small city, which included a SAM in the form of a moated island upon which was once built a fortified medieval manor house. Meeting with the LPA and HE, to decide best treatment and management of the SAM.
The meeting ran something like this:
HE: How are you going to keep down the vegetation on the island, to stop brambles and self-seeding trees taking over?
Me: We thought we'd put a management plan in place where we send a man over in a punt, twice a year, to strimmer it down.
HE. Nonononono... you can't do that. The best way is natural grazing by sheep.
Me: In the middle of a residential area, in suburban ____!? And the island isn't big enough to sustain a permanent population. How do we get them them there, and how do we take care of their welfare?
HE: You'll have to bring them in by lorry from a local farm, and the farmer can be tasked with looking after them.
Me: OooooKkkkk. And how do we get them onto the island? [across a 30 foot wide, water-filled moat]
HE: On the punt?
Me: You want us to ferry a dozen sheep, one at a time, onto an island, using a small punt, several times a year?
Planning Officer: I guess you'll have to build a bridge, then?
<< brief pause to resuscitate our Land Manager, who had gone into cardiac arrest at the thought of the cost>>
HE: Yes, that should be ok.
Me, reluctantly: OK. Where then, here? [indicating on plan] We'll need to build abutments here and here, then, and drop a timber deck across.
HE: Oh, no - you can't build any permanent structure on the island side. In fact nothing that permanently touches it. Maybe some sort of cantilevered drawbridge?
<<pause to remove the Land Manager from the room and settle him in a darkened room with a glass of water, with promises that under no circumstances would we agree to any such thing>>
Me: Well, that rules out a bridge then, doesn't it?
HE: Well... perhaps you could do something temporary?
ME: Such as? Bearing in mind it will need to be positioned then removed several times a year, to rotate sheep on and off the island?
HE: Well, perhaps you could do an inflatable one... you know a bit like a bouncy castle.
At this point, very unprofessionally, I burst out laughing. Then the mental picture, with baaaing sound effects, of a dozen sheep leaping and bouncing with gay abandon across a big yellow inflatable bouncy bridge took hold, and I descended into a full-blown giggling fit, with tears, which it took me several minutes to recover from.
Planning Officer: Perhaps we could come back to this one?
I later circulated a sketch by email, saying that I thought I'd come up with a better idea than the inflatable bouncy bridge (censored to protect reputations):
The Historic England Officer, presumably never having come across the Whoosh Parrot (this being the relatively early days of the internet), emailed back to say that, yes, that should be workable, and she would agree to it if we could come up with removable anchor weights instead of permanent concrete blocks.
We sent a man on with a strimmer, twice a year...
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