Supposed life span of a GU10 LED spotlight...
Discussion
Turfy, maybe I missed it, but which brand bulbs are you buying or just unbranded?
Got to agree with the other posters, the non branded trial bulbs I bought were rubbish really. I've fitted two houses with LAP bulbs now and none have failed in five years. 18 GU10, I think 15 or so b22 and e27 fittings.
Got to agree with the other posters, the non branded trial bulbs I bought were rubbish really. I've fitted two houses with LAP bulbs now and none have failed in five years. 18 GU10, I think 15 or so b22 and e27 fittings.
cml24 said:
Turfy, maybe I missed it, but which brand bulbs are you buying or just unbranded?
They seem to be a mix of TCP and Osram. Both rated at c.25k hours.On these sort of products, I buy on price but I guess it’s logical that there are budget and premium brands. I took, foolishly it seems, the 25k hours promise to mean it would last 25k hours. In hindsight it is never going to last 25k hours and how would you prove it anyway and/or go about a refund without the inevitably of a long since lost receipt.
Added to this the cost of replacement and other inhibiting travel and time factors, it’s a good model. It seems like no one is ever going to take one back as long as it lasts a year or so. just headline 25000hrs and pump them out the door.
I’m thinking about launching the 100k hours GU10 bulb. If it lasts 36.5k hrs or 5 hrs a day for 20 years who is going to take is back because it had a 60 year warranty...or if it last 5 years.
Summary, it is a con. They will never last as long as they say they will. The branding does not matter, some will last longer than others. It is just about buying the premium brands and accepting they will last a varying percentage of what is “says on the tin”.
I accept consumables are consumables but it’s a p*** take. If my brake pad manufacturer said their product would last 20k miles under normal use, and I could somehow convince them I adhered to normal use, I’d complain and expect a refund. The same with almost all other products who warranty, state or imply a guarantee.
Very clever thought process behind this collectively by the manufacturers.
Edited by Turfy on Sunday 19th May 08:33
Turfy said:
, it’s a good model. It seems like no one is ever going to take one back as long as it lasts a year or so. just headline 25000hrs and pump them out the door.
I’m thinking about launching the 100k hours GU10 bulb. If it lasts 36.5k hrs or 5 hrs a day for 20 years who is going to take is back because it had a 60 year warranty...or if it last 5 years.
Summary, it is a con
IIRC most claim 25k but generally they give a 3yr warrantyI’m thinking about launching the 100k hours GU10 bulb. If it lasts 36.5k hrs or 5 hrs a day for 20 years who is going to take is back because it had a 60 year warranty...or if it last 5 years.
Summary, it is a con
You can tell the difference in some. Lap stuff for example was plastic and very light. Also a bonus is screwfix are very good at replacing. The Philips stuff is heavy and feels solid. But saying this you can sometimes pick the Philips up for 4 quid. I remember my first gu10 led. 25 quid each!
I’ve been living in my house for 11 years. When I moved in we had GU10 halogen lamps fitted everywhere. 3 years ago I changed 12 lamps to LED types.
In all the years I’ve had 6 halogen lamps fail (all in the last 6 months, and within 3 months of each other) and 4 of the LED ones fail.
Comparing this with the failure rate of the LED lamps in my car I have to say that cheap LED lamps are not worth the investment an ‘good’ ones are so expensive that they are not worth the extra money!
I’ll give the manufacturers 5 years before they can produce LED lamps which last as long as they promise at a price which actually saves us money!
In all the years I’ve had 6 halogen lamps fail (all in the last 6 months, and within 3 months of each other) and 4 of the LED ones fail.
Comparing this with the failure rate of the LED lamps in my car I have to say that cheap LED lamps are not worth the investment an ‘good’ ones are so expensive that they are not worth the extra money!
I’ll give the manufacturers 5 years before they can produce LED lamps which last as long as they promise at a price which actually saves us money!
Not sure if this has been mentioned previously but in most cases it's switching things on and off that shortens life spans. Plus heat of course.
When I moved to my current house 5 years ago I replaced all bulbs with led and the landing light flickers about 20 times before it stays on. I got a pack from screwffix so will see what the warranty is and if I have my receipt.
When I moved to my current house 5 years ago I replaced all bulbs with led and the landing light flickers about 20 times before it stays on. I got a pack from screwffix so will see what the warranty is and if I have my receipt.
Essay alert.....
The issue you have with GU10 is heat mangement. What it says at the top of this post ("LEDs have a lifespan of 50,000 hours") is correct but that will be entirely dependent on how effective the heat management platform is that they are mounted to.
Where the electricity enters the semiconductor part of the diode, it develops a very intense heat. Nothing like you would experience with a halogen - more like a pinprick of intensity at the point. This heat needs to be drawn away in order that the diode itself is stabilised below an optimum temperature (<60 degrees). The cooler the diode is able to run, the longer it will last and the brighter it should be.
GU10 and MR16 platforms of the traditional halogen lamp shape are already compromised. In order to be a retrofit lamp, the LED version has to be the same size and shape as the lamp they are replacing. So, instead of the glass bowl shape behind the lens, you often see aluminium or ceramic fins instead in an attempt to heat sink but that's where the problem can lie, that heat sink may be neither the right shape, nor the right dimension to adequately heat sink the diodes therein. The more powerful the diodes onboard are, the bigget the problem may be. If you look at a proper sealed downlight unit, you'll see that all the heat sink is behind the diode.
A secondary issue is that it's probably not be the LEDs themselves that have failed on the lamps of those of you report to have had problems. Again, looking at a sealed LED down light, they will have a separate driver (a type of transformer), either attached or separate, which converts the mains to low voltage. A GU10 still has a driver but something that is usually around 100x25x50mm in its casing, has been shrunk down to 10x10x10 maybe and squeezed into the little cap on the back of the lamp. That in itself is not desperately condusive to good heat management of the driver's own circuits but couple that with the fact it's sitting above a heat sink that is running overly hot anyway, youll probably find its that part that fails rather than the diodes. Put that into a fire-rated downlight can and you could exacerbate this.
I tested a lamp that was suggested on here once. It claimed a lumen output of 480 from 9W. I called BS so we bought once and tested it on a LUX metre (Lux is the level of light measured at a distance from a source). This won't mean much to those outside the industry but it came on at 1900LUX at 500mm which was a pretty good start. An hour later however, the lamp was searing hot - too hot to touch - and the LUX level had dropped to 600. So as it heated up, it lost 70% of its available light and illustrates that they heat sinking was insufficient in relation to the power of the diodes onboard. This is also something to look out for on products. What are the HOT lumens? A lamps may well claim 500 lumens but is that Initial Lumens or Hot Lumens? Is it also source Lumens or Post Optic Lumens? The former of each pair will always be higher and more impressive to claim by the manufacturer but the latter of the pairs is the reality and may be markedly different.
The issue you have with GU10 is heat mangement. What it says at the top of this post ("LEDs have a lifespan of 50,000 hours") is correct but that will be entirely dependent on how effective the heat management platform is that they are mounted to.
Where the electricity enters the semiconductor part of the diode, it develops a very intense heat. Nothing like you would experience with a halogen - more like a pinprick of intensity at the point. This heat needs to be drawn away in order that the diode itself is stabilised below an optimum temperature (<60 degrees). The cooler the diode is able to run, the longer it will last and the brighter it should be.
GU10 and MR16 platforms of the traditional halogen lamp shape are already compromised. In order to be a retrofit lamp, the LED version has to be the same size and shape as the lamp they are replacing. So, instead of the glass bowl shape behind the lens, you often see aluminium or ceramic fins instead in an attempt to heat sink but that's where the problem can lie, that heat sink may be neither the right shape, nor the right dimension to adequately heat sink the diodes therein. The more powerful the diodes onboard are, the bigget the problem may be. If you look at a proper sealed downlight unit, you'll see that all the heat sink is behind the diode.
A secondary issue is that it's probably not be the LEDs themselves that have failed on the lamps of those of you report to have had problems. Again, looking at a sealed LED down light, they will have a separate driver (a type of transformer), either attached or separate, which converts the mains to low voltage. A GU10 still has a driver but something that is usually around 100x25x50mm in its casing, has been shrunk down to 10x10x10 maybe and squeezed into the little cap on the back of the lamp. That in itself is not desperately condusive to good heat management of the driver's own circuits but couple that with the fact it's sitting above a heat sink that is running overly hot anyway, youll probably find its that part that fails rather than the diodes. Put that into a fire-rated downlight can and you could exacerbate this.
I tested a lamp that was suggested on here once. It claimed a lumen output of 480 from 9W. I called BS so we bought once and tested it on a LUX metre (Lux is the level of light measured at a distance from a source). This won't mean much to those outside the industry but it came on at 1900LUX at 500mm which was a pretty good start. An hour later however, the lamp was searing hot - too hot to touch - and the LUX level had dropped to 600. So as it heated up, it lost 70% of its available light and illustrates that they heat sinking was insufficient in relation to the power of the diodes onboard. This is also something to look out for on products. What are the HOT lumens? A lamps may well claim 500 lumens but is that Initial Lumens or Hot Lumens? Is it also source Lumens or Post Optic Lumens? The former of each pair will always be higher and more impressive to claim by the manufacturer but the latter of the pairs is the reality and may be markedly different.
E36GUY said:
I tested a lamp that was suggested on here once. It claimed a lumen output of 480 from 9W. I called BS so we bought once and tested it on a LUX metre (Lux is the level of light measured at a distance from a source). This won't mean much to those outside the industry but it came on at 1900LUX at 500mm which was a pretty good start. An hour later however, the lamp was searing hot - too hot to touch - and the LUX level had dropped to 600.
Is the above correct ?It claimed 480, had 1900 which dropped to 600 - so still far more than claimed ?
V8RX7 said:
Is the above correct ?
It claimed 480, had 1900 which dropped to 600 - so still far more than claimed ?
LUX is different to Lumens. Lumens are the measurement of amount of a light at source. LUX is the level of light measured at a distance from that source. It claimed 480, had 1900 which dropped to 600 - so still far more than claimed ?
X Lumens in the ceiling will give you Y Lux at table top level. The lamp I referred to claimed a Lumen output of 480 which, measured at 500mm distant was 1900 LUX which then dropped away to 600 as it got hot.
E36GUY said:
V8RX7 said:
Is the above correct ?
It claimed 480, had 1900 which dropped to 600 - so still far more than claimed ?
LUX is different to Lumens. Lumens are the measurement of amount of a light at source. LUX is the level of light measured at a distance from that source. It claimed 480, had 1900 which dropped to 600 - so still far more than claimed ?
X Lumens in the ceiling will give you Y Lux at table top level. The lamp I referred to claimed a Lumen output of 480 which, measured at 500mm distant was 1900 LUX which then dropped away to 600 as it got hot.
Turfy said:
Is the general consensus that they are so cheap to replace and generally as an overall % kinda last a long time so who cares?
a) Its pissing annoying, you tend to have a load of them, a lot of GU10 fittings are poorly designed and a faff.b) Its an eco disaster to be getting through all the land fill grade electronics.
c) The more expensive ones arnt even that cheap!
I believe LEDs are quite temperature critical, so even though they dont put out much heat, if it cant gete away and they are too warm/hot they die prematurely.
Mind you, I did my kitchen and bathroom in the last house with a mix of Osram and BnQ Diall brand bulbs and they all lasted the 5-6years from fitting to me selling the place. Total of 13 bulbs, maybe my lucky number!
New house doesnt have any downlighters, which is bloody lovely to be honest.
Daniel
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff