Double Glazing Negotiation / Price
Discussion
I had quotes ranging from £12k to £30k for windows, two patio doors and two solid core doors in Rosewood.
Both, the big chain guys were a pain, went through all the expected tricks and spent 50% of the time telling me that everyone who quoted me would be broke and out of business in 5 minutes.
Best thing I did was have a neighbour come round on a false errand 60mins after the appointment start, which helped speed up proceedings (I think I got that recommendation from PH?).
I went with a local company who provided a spec hallway between 'Trade' spec and 'bunker', which was about right for a mock tudor suburban house.
Its been five years and the only issue if for them to come back and re-adjust both patio doors FOC as the drop when closed was causing the alarm sensors to error.
There is only so much you can do and its not so easy to spot the tricks and cons of cowboy builders and installers but if you dig deep enough you could spot them.
you can email here free to see if they are approved windows installers:
https://www.fensa.org.uk/
I found out sadly they only inspect a small percentage of jobs so imo almost pointless.
Its like mybuilder, ratedpeople, ratedtradesman and checkatrade, the companies I have used from them I find quite dishonest since every builder I have used from them turns out a cowboy.
But I agree with others try and get quotes for windows separately and then building cost, you can kinda work out any dishonesty if for example if cost 2k for windows yet they want 3K to install it etc
Get examples and price quotes from 3-5 quotes.... ask questions, any contracts get them to write a detailed contract, check garrantees and check what they have said is what is on the contract "exactly".
Having been burned 3 x last few years am learning the hard way sadly.
you can email here free to see if they are approved windows installers:
https://www.fensa.org.uk/
I found out sadly they only inspect a small percentage of jobs so imo almost pointless.
Its like mybuilder, ratedpeople, ratedtradesman and checkatrade, the companies I have used from them I find quite dishonest since every builder I have used from them turns out a cowboy.
But I agree with others try and get quotes for windows separately and then building cost, you can kinda work out any dishonesty if for example if cost 2k for windows yet they want 3K to install it etc
Get examples and price quotes from 3-5 quotes.... ask questions, any contracts get them to write a detailed contract, check garrantees and check what they have said is what is on the contract "exactly".
Having been burned 3 x last few years am learning the hard way sadly.
PAT64 said:
Its like mybuilder, ratedpeople, ratedtradesman and checkatrade, the companies I have used from them I find quite dishonest since every builder I have used from them turns out a cowboy.
Those sites are for mugs.The companies are mugs because they cannot get enough business on their own. And also because they're on next to 20 others so they have to compete on price.
The customers are mugs because they think the sites exist to help them. They don't. They exist to get paid by the builders. When the builder is paying Checkatrade he's the real customer, not you.
As a business I wouldn't go near any of them. I leave them to the desperadoes and the clueless.
technodup said:
hose sites are for mugs.
The companies are mugs because they cannot get enough business on their own. And also because they're on next to 20 others so they have to compete on price.
The customers are mugs because they think the sites exist to help them. They don't. They exist to get paid by the builders. When the builder is paying Checkatrade he's the real customer, not you.
As a business I wouldn't go near any of them. I leave them to the desperadoes and the clueless.
Exactly, shocking these companies are profiting from it too as you say !The companies are mugs because they cannot get enough business on their own. And also because they're on next to 20 others so they have to compete on price.
The customers are mugs because they think the sites exist to help them. They don't. They exist to get paid by the builders. When the builder is paying Checkatrade he's the real customer, not you.
As a business I wouldn't go near any of them. I leave them to the desperadoes and the clueless.
Am quickly learning though, am gonna try not to be a mug anymore cos its insane that cowboy builders are getting away with so much lies and changing plans or pre approved actions on the fly.
Figuring out building material and then labor really does expose what is going on, I think the best builder is your own hands at this point.
The sales model for most companies works along the following lines:
100% - list price
60% - price right
40% - zero commission price
The sales process starts with a list price, there is no intention of selling to you at this price. The price will normally drop by 30% due to a promotion of some description, this hooks the customer in. There will then be a further discount of 10% to do the deal now, for example “I need a sale today to hit my monthly target so I will sell at zero commission if you buy before midnight”, or “we need a show installation just like yours for a brochure we are pulling together but my colleague is also seeing someone else we could use tomorrow”, or “let me phone my sales manager to see if I can get you an extra 10% off today so that our branch can meet target” etc. The “discounts” will get the sale to “price right” or 60% of the list price. The sales persons commission is the 20% between 40 and 60% of the list price, they earn no commission on anything they sell over price right (60% of list price) although that would contribute to their total monthly sales for any bonus scheme running in that period. Very occasionally a customer is so delighted with the initial discount of 30% they do pay over price right, but that is unusual and of minimal value to the sales person.
The sales person can drop from 60% to 40% but that just eats into commission, they may do so to close the deal i.e. dropping to 55% of list price and losing a quarter of their commission may be a better prospect than no sale. They may even sell at close to 40% if a particularly attractive total sales bonus is running that month or they are in danger of losing their job due to poor sales figures. But that is unlikely. They cannot sell at less than 40% and the company does not really care where the total price to the customer lands in the 40-60% range as they base their business model on selling at 40% of list price because anything above goes to the sales person as commission.
Each company will have a variation on a similar theme e.g. there may be a small commission built into the pricing model for the lead generation team, but, other than the small local players who may have a more “honest” price list, they don’t tend to vary that much.
Yes, in my younger days, I was was one of those sales people. It was a good way to pay my way through university. Looking back, it was not a job I am proud of!
One final observation - no one can work out percentages quicker than a double glazing sales person...
100% - list price
60% - price right
40% - zero commission price
The sales process starts with a list price, there is no intention of selling to you at this price. The price will normally drop by 30% due to a promotion of some description, this hooks the customer in. There will then be a further discount of 10% to do the deal now, for example “I need a sale today to hit my monthly target so I will sell at zero commission if you buy before midnight”, or “we need a show installation just like yours for a brochure we are pulling together but my colleague is also seeing someone else we could use tomorrow”, or “let me phone my sales manager to see if I can get you an extra 10% off today so that our branch can meet target” etc. The “discounts” will get the sale to “price right” or 60% of the list price. The sales persons commission is the 20% between 40 and 60% of the list price, they earn no commission on anything they sell over price right (60% of list price) although that would contribute to their total monthly sales for any bonus scheme running in that period. Very occasionally a customer is so delighted with the initial discount of 30% they do pay over price right, but that is unusual and of minimal value to the sales person.
The sales person can drop from 60% to 40% but that just eats into commission, they may do so to close the deal i.e. dropping to 55% of list price and losing a quarter of their commission may be a better prospect than no sale. They may even sell at close to 40% if a particularly attractive total sales bonus is running that month or they are in danger of losing their job due to poor sales figures. But that is unlikely. They cannot sell at less than 40% and the company does not really care where the total price to the customer lands in the 40-60% range as they base their business model on selling at 40% of list price because anything above goes to the sales person as commission.
Each company will have a variation on a similar theme e.g. there may be a small commission built into the pricing model for the lead generation team, but, other than the small local players who may have a more “honest” price list, they don’t tend to vary that much.
Yes, in my younger days, I was was one of those sales people. It was a good way to pay my way through university. Looking back, it was not a job I am proud of!
One final observation - no one can work out percentages quicker than a double glazing sales person...
Interesting with the percentages, yeah I worked in sales before and frankly almost don't believe a word anyone says anymore lol
Maybe online people are bit more relaxed and anonymous so the beans are out though.
I had one window sales guy (local firm) and he said 6K for 8 windows, but then I said that is far too high off a price tag he came down to 5.2K as the lowest and even said I don't expect you to be able to afford that..... so begs the question why say it !
I then said I was looking at paying no more then 2.5K and the sales guy started to laugh and said you wont find anyone doing 8 windows for less then 3K.
I then showed him two paper quotes from 2 separate companies, one charging 1.8k the other 2.4k.
Quickly went hush he did, said this is impossible and I have been doing this for 40 years !
Even took pictures of it to send back to HQ, told him if your happy to be reasonable cost wise even if its a bit more then these I will consider it but got no reply in the end.
Got windows done but sadly they were cowboys but still 10x better then what I had before !
Maybe online people are bit more relaxed and anonymous so the beans are out though.
I had one window sales guy (local firm) and he said 6K for 8 windows, but then I said that is far too high off a price tag he came down to 5.2K as the lowest and even said I don't expect you to be able to afford that..... so begs the question why say it !
I then said I was looking at paying no more then 2.5K and the sales guy started to laugh and said you wont find anyone doing 8 windows for less then 3K.
I then showed him two paper quotes from 2 separate companies, one charging 1.8k the other 2.4k.
Quickly went hush he did, said this is impossible and I have been doing this for 40 years !
Even took pictures of it to send back to HQ, told him if your happy to be reasonable cost wise even if its a bit more then these I will consider it but got no reply in the end.
Got windows done but sadly they were cowboys but still 10x better then what I had before !
PAT64 said:
I then said I was looking at paying no more then 2.5K and the sales guy started to laugh and said you wont find anyone doing 8 windows for less then 3K.
I then showed him two paper quotes from 2 separate companies, one charging 1.8k the other 2.4k.
If someone's charging £1.8k for 8 windows you are going to be doing them again in no time. But not by the same company- they'll be out of business because they're not making money, or they'll be wound up by the tax man because they're not paying any. Unless your windows are A4 paper sized that price is utterly ridiculous.I then showed him two paper quotes from 2 separate companies, one charging 1.8k the other 2.4k.
An average 8 window job we're usually around £6-7k. I'd laugh at you as well if you offered £2.5k.
There will always be someone cheaper. And they're welcome to the customer who doesn't understand price/value.
PAT64 said:
Interesting with the percentages, yeah I worked in sales before and frankly almost don't believe a word anyone says anymore lol
Maybe online people are bit more relaxed and anonymous so the beans are out though.
I had one window sales guy (local firm) and he said 6K for 8 windows, but then I said that is far too high off a price tag he came down to 5.2K as the lowest and even said I don't expect you to be able to afford that..... so begs the question why say it !
I then said I was looking at paying no more then 2.5K and the sales guy started to laugh and said you wont find anyone doing 8 windows for less then 3K.
I then showed him two paper quotes from 2 separate companies, one charging 1.8k the other 2.4k.
Quickly went hush he did, said this is impossible and I have been doing this for 40 years !
Even took pictures of it to send back to HQ, told him if your happy to be reasonable cost wise even if its a bit more then these I will consider it but got no reply in the end.
Got windows done but sadly they were cowboys but still 10x better then what I had before !
So what technodup has been saying and what the sales guy from your local firm said were both correct...Maybe online people are bit more relaxed and anonymous so the beans are out though.
I had one window sales guy (local firm) and he said 6K for 8 windows, but then I said that is far too high off a price tag he came down to 5.2K as the lowest and even said I don't expect you to be able to afford that..... so begs the question why say it !
I then said I was looking at paying no more then 2.5K and the sales guy started to laugh and said you wont find anyone doing 8 windows for less then 3K.
I then showed him two paper quotes from 2 separate companies, one charging 1.8k the other 2.4k.
Quickly went hush he did, said this is impossible and I have been doing this for 40 years !
Even took pictures of it to send back to HQ, told him if your happy to be reasonable cost wise even if its a bit more then these I will consider it but got no reply in the end.
Got windows done but sadly they were cowboys but still 10x better then what I had before !
Wildfire said:
Scaf prices are high because it's two sets, one on the front of the building and another on the back (for one window only, however it's the one that really needs doing). 
Have you considered a tracked spider lift or a vehicle mounted cherry picker? We needed some scaffolding to get up to some chimneys just to put cowls on and the scaffolding cost £1700. When we needed to line some chimneys just before Christmas, I looked up various options and found that it would be cheaper and more convenient to have a tracked spider lift. A couple of months ago, we hired one again so that our joiner and roofer could install a new roof lantern to replace the leaking one. We hired this one:https://lifterz.co.uk/hire/hinowa-17-75/
The whole thing folds down to a ridiculously small size to fit through internal doorways so to get access to the rear of you house, all you need is a 79 cm gap. It cost £942 including an operator, all safety gear, delivery and collection for a whole day. If you can get away with a smaller one, they do a slightly smaller one that's even cheaper: https://lifterz.co.uk/hire/hinowa-15-70/ As the platform can be used to get you to precisely where you want to be rather than the scaffolding being static and limited, the chimney installers said it was much better than scaffolding.
QuickQuack said:
So what technodup has been saying and what the sales guy from your local firm said were both correct...
They were cowboys in the sense they left some scratched glass panels but replaced eventually but they took there time.Otherwise windows are solid and all good.
I get what technodup and yourself are suggesting but somehow multiple window installers are able to provide and install 2K priced windows, while others are saying it should be 5-6K+. Those companies are still up and running btw so must be somehow profiting and surviving, so where I can save money I gotta.
I also researched the big name companies and found many had 8k and 12K install jobs and had so many issues and they too shared the same issue where the installer refused to come out or took 6 months to get back out to fix broken or loose window panels, handles or gaps, so maybe its down to the installers doing the job.
PAT64 said:
Otherwise windows are solid and all good.
I get what technodup and yourself are suggesting but somehow multiple window installers are able to provide and install 2K priced windows, while others are saying it should be 5-6K+. Those companies are still up and running btw so must be somehow profiting and surviving, so where I can save money I gotta.
I bet they're not good in a couple of years. they'll be the cheapest of the cheap, all plastic and no reinforcement, sI get what technodup and yourself are suggesting but somehow multiple window installers are able to provide and install 2K priced windows, while others are saying it should be 5-6K+. Those companies are still up and running btw so must be somehow profiting and surviving, so where I can save money I gotta.
te hardware and they'll be bowed and buckled in no time. Your glass will be bargain basement too. To use a car analogy it's the difference between an M3 and a 318d. Look the same to the untrained eye. Actually very different.And loads don't profit. I know guys who do jobs for next to nothing. If the frames cost them a grand, and they're happy with £500 to fit them they'll charge £1500. No profit. No tax. No wages paid to anyone else. There are loads doing this day in, day out. Happy with a days wage today, with no thought about tomorrow.
I don't fit windows. I run a windows business. There's a difference.
technodup said:
bet they're not good in a couple of years. they'll be the cheapest of the cheap, all plastic and no reinforcement, ste hardware and they'll be bowed and buckled in no time. Your glass will be bargain basement too. To use a car analogy it's the difference between an M3 and a 318d. Look the same to the untrained eye. Actually very different.
And loads don't profit. I know guys who do jobs for next to nothing. If the frames cost them a grand, and they're happy with £500 to fit them they'll charge £1500. No profit. No tax. No wages paid to anyone else. There are loads doing this day in, day out. Happy with a days wage today, with no thought about tomorrow.
I don't fit windows. I run a windows business. There's a difference.
Yeah makes sense if your gonna put cheaper units in over the more pricey ones the quality has to suffer somewhere. I have had these for few years now really no issues yet, they appear strong and sturdy and open and shut well. They do the job for now but ill take note of your wise words hopefully I have money to buy a better set in future !te hardware and they'll be bowed and buckled in no time. Your glass will be bargain basement too. To use a car analogy it's the difference between an M3 and a 318d. Look the same to the untrained eye. Actually very different.And loads don't profit. I know guys who do jobs for next to nothing. If the frames cost them a grand, and they're happy with £500 to fit them they'll charge £1500. No profit. No tax. No wages paid to anyone else. There are loads doing this day in, day out. Happy with a days wage today, with no thought about tomorrow.
I don't fit windows. I run a windows business. There's a difference.
Only had one window, and a replacement pane, but used the local highstreet independent in our small market town as was very help really.
Then used the local. glazer at the end of the road when I needs one more replacement pane, and he was a fair bit cheaper and just as good. But obviously didn't do frames.
Daniel
Then used the local. glazer at the end of the road when I needs one more replacement pane, and he was a fair bit cheaper and just as good. But obviously didn't do frames.
Daniel
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