Housing estate design of the last 20yrs - why so bad?
Discussion
blueg33 said:
But I do think that most modern estates do not provide gardens big enough for kids to play in properly and I think they miss out as a consequence. A LEAP or LAP is no substitute for private safe play space. (Sorry - LEAP is a Local Equipped Area of Play. Think springy chickens and a small climbing frame. LAP - Local area of play. Think small area of grass surrounded by a low fence).
I'm not sure I agree - I have 5 acres and whilst I do like playing with ride on mowers it takes a lot of time and money.I visited a mate on a modern estate in Warwick, we wandered the 200m to the LEAP and I thought it was a better idea to live near a park than to maintain your own !
Kids can't cycle / play football in anything like a sensible sized garden and can get a paddling pool / trampoline in the 10m they are given.
The thing I hate about modern estates is the lack of mature trees.
Equus said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's a problem for 'properly expensive' builds, too... just that the design of those is driven by the client, who generally knows f
k all about thermal design.If the client wants big windows/bifold doors, then that's usually what they get. You give them fair warning, but if they still insist (which they frequently do), you simply have to do the best you can with the rest of the design, and leave them to suffer from the solar gain... it's their funeral, so to speak.
V8RX7 said:
blueg33 said:
But I do think that most modern estates do not provide gardens big enough for kids to play in properly and I think they miss out as a consequence. A LEAP or LAP is no substitute for private safe play space. (Sorry - LEAP is a Local Equipped Area of Play. Think springy chickens and a small climbing frame. LAP - Local area of play. Think small area of grass surrounded by a low fence).
I'm not sure I agree - I have 5 acres and whilst I do like playing with ride on mowers it takes a lot of time and money.I visited a mate on a modern estate in Warwick, we wandered the 200m to the LEAP and I thought it was a better idea to live near a park than to maintain your own !
Kids can't cycle / play football in anything like a sensible sized garden and can get a paddling pool / trampoline in the 10m they are given.
The thing I hate about modern estates is the lack of mature trees.
This beings me to my favourite garden design quote from a famous landscape architect -"Even the smallest of gardens should have at least 5 acres of deciduous woodland" - now there was a chap that lived in a different world!
V8RX7 said:
The thing I hate about modern estates is the lack of mature trees.
I know what you mean, but unless the modern estate is built in a forest, then that can be quite difficult to to resolve in the short term...We live in a fairly green suburb. Unfortunately, over the past 80 years, many of the trees were allowed to get too big and have caused problems. The council have removed a few of them and replaced them with smaller ones that will grow over the next few decades.
Some of the "new towns" have quite a lot of tree/Bush cover, which has advantages and disadvantages.
Sambucket said:
Trees are a deal breaker for me too. I'd unhesitatingly sacrifice a couple of bedrooms for mature trees in the garden.
Maybe there would be less planning objections if the estates are more attractive.
I suspect that most people would struggle to cope with one or zero bedrooms if they sacrificed a couple for mature trees.....Maybe there would be less planning objections if the estates are more attractive.
We have mature trees at the end of our garden and I do quite like that.
Can anyone answer why some new builds have the plumbing back on the outside ?
There is a new build estate near me, my bro has bought a house there, seems pleasant for what it is , but all the houses have the soil stack pipes straight up the outside wall and kitchen taps feeding to a viable drain/pipe by front door. Its a fairly affluent (no pun) estate and there are a fair few streets of 400K + detached houses all with huge soil stack pipes protruding up the sides of the houses etc.
My last house was like this, but it was a basic 60s semi, I can see the plus points. My current 70s bigger semi has all the soil pipework and pipes boxed on the inside, but why have expensive new builds reverted to outside again? I guess its cheaper, more space and leaks are easier to fix/less damage etc?
There is a new build estate near me, my bro has bought a house there, seems pleasant for what it is , but all the houses have the soil stack pipes straight up the outside wall and kitchen taps feeding to a viable drain/pipe by front door. Its a fairly affluent (no pun) estate and there are a fair few streets of 400K + detached houses all with huge soil stack pipes protruding up the sides of the houses etc.
My last house was like this, but it was a basic 60s semi, I can see the plus points. My current 70s bigger semi has all the soil pipework and pipes boxed on the inside, but why have expensive new builds reverted to outside again? I guess its cheaper, more space and leaks are easier to fix/less damage etc?
MC Bodge said:
V8RX7 said:
The thing I hate about modern estates is the lack of mature trees.
I know what you mean, but unless the modern estate is built in a forest, then that can be quite difficult to to resolve in the short term...We live in a fairly green suburb. Unfortunately, over the past 80 years, many of the trees were allowed to get too big and have caused problems. The council have removed a few of them and replaced them with smaller ones that will grow over the next few decades.
Some of the "new towns" have quite a lot of tree/Bush cover, which has advantages and disadvantages.
One of the surviving oak trees in a neighbours garden has had minimal maintenance for years and blocks out a lot of light, especially in summer. Plus getting rid of the leaves is a PITA, my parents take multiple car loads of them to the tip each autumn.
Haha, yes there is one guy on our street who has been running a campaign to remove the trees within 100m of his house. Keeps writing to the council with fake petitions saying his opinion is the majority!
This is the problem I guess. When you try to please everyone with mass production, you end up with a very bland product which is exciting to no one.
Maybe if we accepted that sometimes people will get annoyed, life would be better for the majority.
Another example, it only takes one angry neighbour who moves next to a music venue, to shut it down. Even if most people love the venue, and have lived there longer.
This is the problem I guess. When you try to please everyone with mass production, you end up with a very bland product which is exciting to no one.
Maybe if we accepted that sometimes people will get annoyed, life would be better for the majority.
Another example, it only takes one angry neighbour who moves next to a music venue, to shut it down. Even if most people love the venue, and have lived there longer.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 10th July 15:40
MC Bodge said:
I know what you mean, but unless the modern estate is built in a forest, then that can be quite difficult to to resolve in the short term...
We live in a fairly green suburb. Unfortunately, over the past 80 years, many of the trees were allowed to get too big and have caused problems.
Yes but as a recent example there is a new Estate about to be built in Knowle and who'd have thought, all the mature trees were cut down - I know this makes Planning easier and increases the land value but I suspect it sold for £3M an acre so the vendors hardly needed the extra cash.We live in a fairly green suburb. Unfortunately, over the past 80 years, many of the trees were allowed to get too big and have caused problems.
Of course the lack of TPOs didn't help.
I used to live in Solihull and they asked residents whether they wanted the trees as the costs of pavement repair etc were mounting - thankfully the majority did.
V8RX7 said:
Yes but as a recent example there is a new Estate about to be built in Knowle and who'd have thought, all the mature trees were cut down - I know this makes Planning easier and increases the land value but I suspect it sold for £3M an acre so the vendors hardly needed the extra cash.
That's s a real shameEquus said:
Absolutely everything on that list is a direct result of the 'PPG3' approach...
Blame Prince Charles.
I can explain the reasoning behind each one, if you really want me to, though it would make for a very long and tedious thread... suffice it to say that the Developers had those features forced upon them by Planning, not the other way around.
ThisBlame Prince Charles.
I can explain the reasoning behind each one, if you really want me to, though it would make for a very long and tedious thread... suffice it to say that the Developers had those features forced upon them by Planning, not the other way around.
Having worked on the engineering work on housing estate design since the mid 90's I can fully concur with Equus.
PPG3, planners hands tied, or being obstinate in some cases.
Recall a large development I was stuck with where the planners wanted a gated access to the rear positioned one and a half car lengths from the footway so the owners couldn't park two cars in tandem. Reason, because everyone was going to own a bicycle and there was going to be a regular bus route around the estate. ... Result, loads of cars parked on narrow roads.
In addition of course there was a requirement, think it was courtesy of 2 Jags, for the minimum number of houses per hectare. Combine that with Developers wanting maximum return for their capital.
Retired now don't have to worry about it or get annoyed.
blueg33 said:
Zetec-S said:
Munter said:
EarlofDrift said:
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I just don't understand why anyone even a first time buyer would want to buy one of those tiny window houses with little of no front or back garden,
Why do people say this? The smaller the gardens the better. Hardly any first time buyers want to be fafing about with a garden. Parking for 2 cars, and garden that can be maintained in 10 minutes every couple of weeks. That'd be ideal.I just don't understand why anyone even a first time buyer would want to buy one of those tiny window houses with little of no front or back garden,
As for being overlooked, they really aren't that bad. The mixed up layout means you don't have massive rows of houses all in a line so there is limits to how far someone can actually see anyway. No idea whether it's an intentional part of the process or just design by accident, but around here it seems to work quite well.
But I do think that most modern estates do not provide gardens big enough for kids to play in properly and I think they miss out as a consequence. A LEAP or LAP is no substitute for private safe play space. (Sorry - LEAP is a Local Equipped Area of Play. Think springy chickens and a small climbing frame. LAP - Local area of play. Think small area of grass surrounded by a low fence).
The fundamental problem is that developers are encouraged by the planning system to pack em in, even if you don't pack em in, when buying the land you will be out bid by another developer that is plotting at a higher density. I would like to see external space standards set and enforced through planning. This will hurt the landowner (shame £1.7 per acre rather than £2m), and mean that we need to develop more greenfield sites which pisses of CPRE and environmental do gooders.
Can we do as others seem to. Germany? have a set of minimum sizes laid down in law.
2 bedroom house xx square footage bedroom, living room, kitchen etc.
Pretty sure social housing is done like that or used to be.
I saw an article on the bbc news site just a week ago that showed how room sizes had changed over the years (I can't seem to find it now though)
It would solve more problems than it caused, granted someone wouldn't make quite as much money as estates would invariably have fewer houses, but the people living in the houses would be happier.
MC Bodge said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
Can anyone answer why some new builds have the plumbing back on the outside ?
..... I guess its cheaper, more space and leaks are easier to fix/less damage etc?
You've answered your own question. ..... I guess its cheaper, more space and leaks are easier to fix/less damage etc?
techguyone said:
Can we do as others seem to. Germany? have a set of minimum sizes laid down in law.
2 bedroom house xx square footage bedroom, living room, kitchen etc.
We already have the Nationally Described Space Standard, but it's up to individual LPAs whether they adopt it (hence it's not really national...).2 bedroom house xx square footage bedroom, living room, kitchen etc.
Personally, as a fan of the Tiny House movement, I resent it deeply. If people want to live in small houses, they should be allowed to do so.
Which brings us to the other important point that, aside from Planning, people get the houses they want. If they were willing and able to pay for big houses, with big gardens, then that's what the developers would be building.
It's the same as with cars; everybody says they want an Aston Martin, Range Rover, or Bentley, but when it comes to signing on the dotted line, a lot more decide that want they actually want is a Kia...
Edited by Equus on Wednesday 10th July 21:40
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