Surveyor, Roof Insulation, and "catastrophic roof failure"
Discussion
Writing this on behalf of the wife, as her mother is selling her house. Backstory is that her mother is going through a divorce and needs to sell her home. It's an old property, built somewhere between the 1920's to 1930's. The wife's dad, years ago, stapled a plastic sheet to the inside of the roof. It's never leaked, tiles aren't falling down, there's no problem.
The mother in law has had an offer, she's accepted it, and the surveyor went round. He said he wanted the plastic sheeting removed so he could inspect the roof. She did it before I told her that I thought it was an odd decision, but it's done.
About a week later, today, her estate agent tells her that the buyers have had their report back and the surveyor has said that the plastic insulation "could've caused catastrophic failure to the roof". I've done a quick Google, and from what I can see, any insulaiton in the roof could cause the same issue to the roof. I know when I bought my house 4 years ago the previous owner had put foil backed foam insulation and this phrase or reference didn't come up in our report.
I've two questions really.
The first one is, is that a normal thing for a surveyor to do? Or is it just a "get out of jail free" card for the surveyor to cover their arses.
Second one is, what is the best pragmatic way to deal with the buyers if they try to use this to scalp money off the price of the house. The price has already been reduced several times, and her mother (being the wrong age of 50 and more or less a single mom) needs everything she can in order to get herself and my sister-in-law a roof over their heads.
Thanks!
The mother in law has had an offer, she's accepted it, and the surveyor went round. He said he wanted the plastic sheeting removed so he could inspect the roof. She did it before I told her that I thought it was an odd decision, but it's done.
About a week later, today, her estate agent tells her that the buyers have had their report back and the surveyor has said that the plastic insulation "could've caused catastrophic failure to the roof". I've done a quick Google, and from what I can see, any insulaiton in the roof could cause the same issue to the roof. I know when I bought my house 4 years ago the previous owner had put foil backed foam insulation and this phrase or reference didn't come up in our report.
I've two questions really.
The first one is, is that a normal thing for a surveyor to do? Or is it just a "get out of jail free" card for the surveyor to cover their arses.
Second one is, what is the best pragmatic way to deal with the buyers if they try to use this to scalp money off the price of the house. The price has already been reduced several times, and her mother (being the wrong age of 50 and more or less a single mom) needs everything she can in order to get herself and my sister-in-law a roof over their heads.
Thanks!
Arse covering.
It may, or may not, cause catastrophic failure.
If it does, within the next ten years, don't try sueing the surveyor as they warned you (the purchasers) about it.
No doubt your purchasers home buyers report has a caveat about any issues being raised by their surveyor should be subject to a full structural survey in order to gain greater information about the "possible" problems.
It may, or may not, cause catastrophic failure.
If it does, within the next ten years, don't try sueing the surveyor as they warned you (the purchasers) about it.
No doubt your purchasers home buyers report has a caveat about any issues being raised by their surveyor should be subject to a full structural survey in order to gain greater information about the "possible" problems.
eliot said:
Something or other, that i may or may not of seen, may or may not fail at some point in the future - but here is my invoice that i definitely want you to pay
This. Once upon a time surveys were worth something. They took some time, took 35mm photos, and you ended up with a reasonable dossier of issues with some pragmatic commentary. Now they are worthless collections of boiler plate paragraphs of text cut and pasted from reference blurb. They tell you nothing and just describe a bunch of domesday scenarios that “may” happen. The “surveyor” attends the property for a hour and charges a grand, but doesn’t lift drain covers, won’t go up a ladder, or do other other thank walk around and use their eyes.
I stopped getting surveys done because I can use my own eyes and judgement. It’s become an utter racket and they absolve themselves of any possible future liability.
When I sell the price once agreed is the price. I won't be knocking a penny off for anything afterwards..
If a subsequent 'buyers' surveyor says damp course not right or roof falling off I don't care either way.
The price is the price we agreed. If you don't want it that's fine.
If you/they want to get a survey done first then make an offer based on that that's fine..
If a subsequent 'buyers' surveyor says damp course not right or roof falling off I don't care either way.
The price is the price we agreed. If you don't want it that's fine.
If you/they want to get a survey done first then make an offer based on that that's fine..
BaldOldMan said:
Just tell them the report is unacceptable - that's the wording you would have got if you'd refused to remove the polythene - the surveyor was probably disappointed that you complied with the request - but as you removed it, it's not unreasonable to want a factual inspection / report
What the seller thinks about the "acceptability" of the survey is immaterial. Go back with they're welcome to have a structural survey done if they have any concerns, but you're not going to discount on arse covering conjecture, and that the surveyor would have highlighted if he had actually seen any problems.
We had two surveys done on our house, a mortgage home buyers survey, and an independent structural survey. The mortgage company said it needed work but was cheap., the structural survey said the same, but also included a list of people we 'should' speak to for more information, electrician, structural engineer, arborologist....
We had two surveys done on our house, a mortgage home buyers survey, and an independent structural survey. The mortgage company said it needed work but was cheap., the structural survey said the same, but also included a list of people we 'should' speak to for more information, electrician, structural engineer, arborologist....
k off". On the other side of the coin, and without knowing the roof buildup, the plastic sheet is likely to have removed all form of ventilation from the roof space.
Without a destructive inspection, the surveyor will be unable to determine this.
On the basis it was a basic inspection on behalf of the lender, what else is he supposed to do ?
Without a destructive inspection, the surveyor will be unable to determine this.
On the basis it was a basic inspection on behalf of the lender, what else is he supposed to do ?
You could get a local roofing company round, tell them nothing but ask for a quote to remediate any issues. They'll find EVERYTHING, then you have some ammo against a price reduction request.
Incidentally, the survey on my house said the root trusses weren't diagonally braced or tied to the gable ends. Except when I got into the roof, they are.
Incidentally, the survey on my house said the root trusses weren't diagonally braced or tied to the gable ends. Except when I got into the roof, they are.
BaldOldMan said:
....that's the wording you would have got if you'd refused to remove the polythene....
That was my thought, if it has been removed then surely he can check and make a suitable report.Seems odd to have put it up in the first place, but odd things happen. The buyer might back out or want a discount, thats up to them to an extent, but while a quick sale might be wort something, there will be other buyers, and now the plastic is removed it shouldnt come back to haunt again.
The only other option is to get an roofer/inspector to do a survey of the roof itself, something you could offer to the seller as something that could be done to put their mind at rest. If it costs £500 and seals the deal it is probably worth it.
Daniel
Aluminati said:
On the other side of the coin, and without knowing the roof buildup, the plastic sheet is likely to have removed all form of ventilation from the roof space.
Without a destructive inspection, the surveyor will be unable to determine this.
On the basis it was a basic inspection on behalf of the lender, what else is he supposed to do ?
It depends upon what the survey concludes, rather than what it says in the narrative. Without a destructive inspection, the surveyor will be unable to determine this.
On the basis it was a basic inspection on behalf of the lender, what else is he supposed to do ?
Lining a pitched roof designed for cross ventilation with plastic is a disaster waiting to happen, there is no disputing that, its an awful thing to do. If the surveyor outlines that such actions can lead to a catastrophic roof failure, then that's their opinion based upon what they've seen, however what you would expect to see in a report is a statement with some specific observations... "although no damp / mould / dry rot was detected" or "no defects were observed and it is recommended that the plastic is not replaced" or similar factual statements to follow their observation.
Are the roof timbers actually rotten? Or showing signs of rot? If not then you know you can stand firm in good faith.
Surveys seem like an absolute racket these days. Even the supposedly pukka ones would never pay out if they missed something. You pay £100's an hour for a cut and pasted report.
Surveys seem like an absolute racket these days. Even the supposedly pukka ones would never pay out if they missed something. You pay £100's an hour for a cut and pasted report.
I had almost the same problem a few years ago on a house I bought to flip .
I completely renovated the house and put it up for sale , buyer came in and offered , deal agreed and the buyer got a survey . The surveyor couldn't find anything wrong anywhere so put on the report that the slate roof would need replacement sometime in the future .
The buyer then decided she wanted a further 5k off the agreed price so i asked the agents how much she'd paid for the survey, it was £1200 and they also pointed out that she loved the house as it was the best she'd seen at the price point , the agents are your best friend in this situation.
I took a deep breath and told the agents to put the house back on the market , and if the buyer really wanted the house I had no problem with them getting a roofing contractor in , at her cost , to do an independent report .
The buyer panicked at the thought of losing the house and her £1200 and said she'd complete at the agreed price after speaking to the agent , who themselves realised they were going to be waiting much longer for their fees . I also pointed out to the agents that we were coming to the end of their contract and I'd probably switch agents .
It's a roll of the dice but good luck if you follow my method , it was a nervous couple of days as I really needed to sell , I'd already committed to something else with the money !
I completely renovated the house and put it up for sale , buyer came in and offered , deal agreed and the buyer got a survey . The surveyor couldn't find anything wrong anywhere so put on the report that the slate roof would need replacement sometime in the future .
The buyer then decided she wanted a further 5k off the agreed price so i asked the agents how much she'd paid for the survey, it was £1200 and they also pointed out that she loved the house as it was the best she'd seen at the price point , the agents are your best friend in this situation.
I took a deep breath and told the agents to put the house back on the market , and if the buyer really wanted the house I had no problem with them getting a roofing contractor in , at her cost , to do an independent report .
The buyer panicked at the thought of losing the house and her £1200 and said she'd complete at the agreed price after speaking to the agent , who themselves realised they were going to be waiting much longer for their fees . I also pointed out to the agents that we were coming to the end of their contract and I'd probably switch agents .
It's a roll of the dice but good luck if you follow my method , it was a nervous couple of days as I really needed to sell , I'd already committed to something else with the money !
If they try knock money off for it I’d be telling them there’s no discount for possibilities and they’re welcome to pay for a full inspection of the roof as a starting point.
Surely if a surveyor thinks there’s a chance of a catastrophic failure they should actually check and confirm?
Surely if a surveyor thinks there’s a chance of a catastrophic failure they should actually check and confirm?
The Surveyor said:
Aluminati said:
On the other side of the coin, and without knowing the roof buildup, the plastic sheet is likely to have removed all form of ventilation from the roof space.
Without a destructive inspection, the surveyor will be unable to determine this.
On the basis it was a basic inspection on behalf of the lender, what else is he supposed to do ?
It depends upon what the survey concludes, rather than what it says in the narrative. Without a destructive inspection, the surveyor will be unable to determine this.
On the basis it was a basic inspection on behalf of the lender, what else is he supposed to do ?
Lining a pitched roof designed for cross ventilation with plastic is a disaster waiting to happen, there is no disputing that, its an awful thing to do. If the surveyor outlines that such actions can lead to a catastrophic roof failure, then that's their opinion based upon what they've seen, however what you would expect to see in a report is a statement with some specific observations... "although no damp / mould / dry rot was detected" or "no defects were observed and it is recommended that the plastic is not replaced" or similar factual statements to follow their observation.
If i was committing a large amount of money to a house purchase, i would have an intensive survey carried out on my behalf anyway, but that doesn’t appear to happen that often nowadays ?
I would also imagine lenders surveyors are always going to look at worst case scenarios anyway what with insurance issues and them probably having a bulk deal with lender ?
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