Planning permission to replace windows with French doors...
Discussion
We want to install French doors to replace a window in the front elevation of our house. The doors will be the same width as the existing window so the lintel won't be altered.
I believe we wouldn't need planning if this was the rear of the house (which is just as well as we're installing 5m bifold doors at the back too) but will we definitely need planning for a change to the front elevation? (Our house is ~30m from the front boundary of our land, if that makes a difference.)
The stressed-sounding chap on the council's advice line said we probably would need planning, but our structural engineer is convinced we don't. I tend to trust the council more than the engineer, but do any of you have any experience/knowledge you could share please? Thanks!
I believe we wouldn't need planning if this was the rear of the house (which is just as well as we're installing 5m bifold doors at the back too) but will we definitely need planning for a change to the front elevation? (Our house is ~30m from the front boundary of our land, if that makes a difference.)
The stressed-sounding chap on the council's advice line said we probably would need planning, but our structural engineer is convinced we don't. I tend to trust the council more than the engineer, but do any of you have any experience/knowledge you could share please? Thanks!
I would get at least pre-planning advice - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200232/plann...
If in doubt, for the relatively low cost, I'd just get permission. You can draw the plans by hand yourself - no need to incur big expense
It's confusing as the rules say something like, you don't need permission for new windows and doors that are of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house - but I would interpret that as replacement and not different sized ones.
[Edited to add]
Here you go - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/commo...
However, the definitions are, IMHO vague - would the new doors need to appear similar to existing doors - or would similar to existing windows be enough......
If in doubt, for the relatively low cost, I'd just get permission. You can draw the plans by hand yourself - no need to incur big expense
It's confusing as the rules say something like, you don't need permission for new windows and doors that are of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house - but I would interpret that as replacement and not different sized ones.
[Edited to add]
Here you go - https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/commo...
However, the definitions are, IMHO vague - would the new doors need to appear similar to existing doors - or would similar to existing windows be enough......
Edited by BaldOldMan on Tuesday 12th November 21:18
This would be an alteration to the appearance of the property rather than an extension. Presumably if your house has 'permitted development' rights intact (ie not a recent build with these rights taken away by condition of the original planning consent), and is definitely a house and not a flat, then such alterations to the appearance are permitted development as long as you are not extending in any way towards the road (eg a bay window). The 'General Permitted Development Order' (GPDO) lists things that do need permission but in terms of windows the only stipulations are in relation to first floor side windows being obscure glazed and it doesn't mention doors.
So, I don't think you need planning permission to change or add windows and doors.
So, I don't think you need planning permission to change or add windows and doors.
As Hub said, provided the building is not Listed, has not had it's PD rights removed or restricted, and is not in an area of special Planning control (a conservation area, AONB, National Park, etc.), then inserting a new window or door usually falls under Class A residential Permitted Development rights ("enlargement, improvement or other alteration"), provided that the style of the window or door is similar to those used elsewhere on the dwelling. There are certain restrictions that apply to windows at first floor level, but they won't concern you.
The only other thing to be careful of is that you're not creating any sort of raised (more than 300mm. above ground level) landing, patio or veranda to serve the new doors; such work is not Permitted Development.
I've said this many times before on this forum, but it never seems to sink in:
You cannot 'just get permission' for something that does not require it!
The Local Planning Authority would be acting ultra vires to knowingly enter onto the Planning register and offer a determination on an application describing work that does not fall within the control of the relevant legislation.
If you have any doubt whatsoever that that the work may require Planning Permission, you should seek a 'certificate of lawful development', which they can offer, and basically amounts to a formal confirmation the Planning Permission is not required.
The work will fall within the remit of Building Regulations control, however. If you're enlarging the width of the opening (such that it requires a new lintel) then you'll need actual Building Regulations consent, which for such minor work is most conveniently obtained by submitting a 'Building Notice' (no plans required). If you're not increasing the width of the opening, then you can probably bypass Building Regulations by having the work done and certificated by a FENSA registered installer (technically, the increase in glazed area triggers a requirement for a B.Regs application, but in practice I doubt they'd care - give them a ring to check, if worries you).
The only other thing to be careful of is that you're not creating any sort of raised (more than 300mm. above ground level) landing, patio or veranda to serve the new doors; such work is not Permitted Development.
BaldOldMan said:
If in doubt, for the relatively low cost, I'd just get permission.
I've said this many times before on this forum, but it never seems to sink in:
You cannot 'just get permission' for something that does not require it!
The Local Planning Authority would be acting ultra vires to knowingly enter onto the Planning register and offer a determination on an application describing work that does not fall within the control of the relevant legislation.
If you have any doubt whatsoever that that the work may require Planning Permission, you should seek a 'certificate of lawful development', which they can offer, and basically amounts to a formal confirmation the Planning Permission is not required.
The work will fall within the remit of Building Regulations control, however. If you're enlarging the width of the opening (such that it requires a new lintel) then you'll need actual Building Regulations consent, which for such minor work is most conveniently obtained by submitting a 'Building Notice' (no plans required). If you're not increasing the width of the opening, then you can probably bypass Building Regulations by having the work done and certificated by a FENSA registered installer (technically, the increase in glazed area triggers a requirement for a B.Regs application, but in practice I doubt they'd care - give them a ring to check, if worries you).
Thanks for all the replies.
We know we need building regs approval and this will be handled by the structural engineer through the builder/principal contractor, apparently.
The advice on the Planning Portal website (as you linked, BaldOldMan) is spectacularly vague and I can't see anything in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 act that would say what we want to do needs permission. Equus and Hub you seem pretty clear in your assertion that we don't need planning, but since my great-grandfather told me never to trust internet strangers
could you provide something authoritative to confirm the source of your authority please?
Equus, your point about raising the level of the ground outside these new doors is an interesting one. To avoid having a two-foot drop outside these new doors we do need to raise the ground level of a 2m x 2m flower bed by more than 300mm (to the house's damp-proof course and cover the area with paving. Common sense would have suggested that we could do this without triggering any attention if we weren't going to install doors, but you've got me worrying: am I wrong? (We had planned to soften the edge of this raised area with a stepped herbaceous border rather than a hard 450mm wall.)
We know we need building regs approval and this will be handled by the structural engineer through the builder/principal contractor, apparently.
The advice on the Planning Portal website (as you linked, BaldOldMan) is spectacularly vague and I can't see anything in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 act that would say what we want to do needs permission. Equus and Hub you seem pretty clear in your assertion that we don't need planning, but since my great-grandfather told me never to trust internet strangers
could you provide something authoritative to confirm the source of your authority please?Equus, your point about raising the level of the ground outside these new doors is an interesting one. To avoid having a two-foot drop outside these new doors we do need to raise the ground level of a 2m x 2m flower bed by more than 300mm (to the house's damp-proof course and cover the area with paving. Common sense would have suggested that we could do this without triggering any attention if we weren't going to install doors, but you've got me worrying: am I wrong? (We had planned to soften the edge of this raised area with a stepped herbaceous border rather than a hard 450mm wall.)
threadlock said:
Equus and Hub you seem pretty clear in your assertion that we don't need planning, but since my great-grandfather told me never to trust internet strangers could you provide something authoritative to confirm the source of your authority please?
What are you finding vague about "You do not usually need to apply for planning permission for insertion of new windows and doors that are of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house..."? could you provide something authoritative to confirm the source of your authority please?I could point you at the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015, but if you can't make sense of the guidance on the Planning Portal that has already been linked, it would make your brains dribble out of your ears trying to interpret it.
I run a Planning Consultancy, so I'm fairly sure of my ground, but like I said, if you're in any doubt, apply for a certificate of lawfulness, and get it straight from the horses mouth.
Raising the ground level as you describe is technically an 'engineering operation' under Planning, and does require Planning Permission, but up to you if you feel lucky.
Equus said:
threadlock said:
Equus and Hub you seem pretty clear in your assertion that we don't need planning, but since my great-grandfather told me never to trust internet strangers could you provide something authoritative to confirm the source of your authority please?
What are you finding vague about "You do not usually need to apply for planning permission for insertion of new windows and doors that are of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house..."? could you provide something authoritative to confirm the source of your authority please?If the case was clear cut then it would say You do not need to apply for planning permission for insertion of new windows and doors that are of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house...
And even then there's a caveat: 'similar'. How similar? Until it's defined you cannot know.
Equus said:
I run a Planning Consultancy, so I'm fairly sure of my ground, but like I said, if you're in any doubt, apply for a certificate of lawfulness, and get it straight from the horses mouth.
Ah right - that's pretty authoritative then! 
Thank you for contributing your professional skills in that case.Equus said:
What are you finding vague about "You do not usually need to apply for planning permission for insertion of new windows and doors that are of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house..."?
The French doors we plan to install will be "of a similar appearance to those used in the construction of the house" in that they'll be white uPVC and in thirds just like the window above them, in an effort to make them look somewhat original. But I would hate to try and argue with a planning officer that a door is similar to a window!Here's the window in question - behind the large bush in the centre of the photo:
Equus said:
I could point you at the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015, but if you can't make sense of the guidance on the Planning Portal that has already been linked, it would make your brains dribble out of your ears trying to interpret it.
I've looked through it and can't find anything specific about replacing a window with a door, and since I'm not familiar with how the law works should I assume that if it's not specifically excluded from permitted development then it's included?Equus said:
Raising the ground level as you describe is technically an 'engineering operation' under Planning, and does require Planning Permission, but up to you if you feel lucky.
Interesting - I'll do some more research. We may be able to start raising that ground in stages and hope nobody notices! Many thanks again for your input.threadlock said:
[I've looked through {the GPDO} and can't find anything specific about replacing a window with a door, and since I'm not familiar with how the law works should I assume that if it's not specifically excluded from permitted development then it's included?
Correct. If it falls within the description of 'the enlargement, alteration or other improvement of a dwellinghouse', is not more accurately described by any of the other class headings, and is not disqualified by any of the specific exclusions listed, then it's Permitted Development.But at risk of becoming boring by repetition: if you have any doubt, apply for a certificate of lawfulness.
It really is that simple...
PeterWarker102 said:
When it comes to legitimizing a replacement project after it has been implemented, you should not expect the permitting authorities to be loyal. Or it will come at a hefty price. As a result, starting afresh is both prudent and legal.
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